Terrible North Miami Beach condo collapse

[Chuckanut]

Interesting video. Of course, it's just one guy's opinion.

What fabulous looking homes! They certainly seemed luxurious. OTOH, the area with the pool filter and pumps looks very nasty. I hate to say it but this is starting to look like a self inflicted tragedy. Too much money for fabulous living areas, too little money to keep the structure strong and safe. I imagine we will have a better idea in a year or so.

 

[Nick12]

Interesting video. Of course, it's just one guy's opinion.

What fabulous looking homes! They certainly seemed luxurious. OTOH, the area with the pool filter and pumps looks very nasty. I hate to say it but this is starting to look like a self inflicted tragedy. Too much money for fabulous living areas, too little money to keep the structure strong and safe. I imagine we will have a better idea in a year or so.

Some may have blinders eyes. Residents could have been more focused on oceanfront living etc and tend to look the other way when it came to the look of a parking garage.

 

[retire-early]

Some may have blinders eyes. Residents could have been more focused on oceanfront living etc and tend to look the other way when it came to the look of a parking garage.

To be fair, how many of us even look at the structure of a parking garage?

Recently I have had to park in a parking garage near a major hospital.
I went in and parked.
I never looked at the ceiling.
I was more concerned about physical safety from crime than the structure collapsing.

The woman with the video of the parking garage at the Towers only did it just to see where the parking spot was.

 

[Nick12]

To be fair, how many of us even look at the structure of a parking garage?

Recently I have had to park in a parking garage near a major hospital.
I went in and parked.
I never looked at the ceiling.
I was more concerned about physical safety from crime than the structure collapsing.

The woman with the video of the parking garage at the Towers only did it just to see where the parking spot was.

+1. No one I know and myself don't even give it a thought parking my car in a parking garage. I'm more concerned about the possible door dings that my cars could get.

 

[2177V]

As I retired Civil Engineer with a Professional License, I am convinced the cause is either (1) a sinkhole or (2) the salt water environment caused the steel reinforcement rebars to corrode. In California, concrete bridges have a finite life if they are constructed in a salt water environment. These bridges are usually demolished at the end of their life so a new one can be built. Both of these causes will slip by an annual inspection. Special concrete can be utilized to minimize (but not eliminate) salt water from penetrating thru to the steel rebars. However, I doubt that this building utilized this special concrete. To my knowledge, California does not have a 40 years recertification process on a bridge with a known finite life.

 

[NW-Bound]

Of course as a visitor one would not pay as much attention. On the other hand, residents of the doomed tower kept fighting the proposed assessment to fix their buildings. Without a concensus, the HOA board resigned.

Five members of the Champlain Towers South condo association's seven-member board -- including its president, Anette Goldstein -- decided to resign in the fall of 2019, when the association was debating multimillion-dollar repairs, the Washington Post reported, citing board meeting minutes and Goldstein's resignation letter.

The majority of the Champlain Towers South board decided to quit following disputes over the lackluster response in tackling the repairs needed in the condominium complex, the paper reported.

"We work for months to go in one direction and at the very last minute objections are raised that should have been discussed and resolved right in the beginning," Goldstein wrote in her September 2019 resignation letter, obtained by the Post.

Residents finally voted for the $15 million repair in April 2021, but it was already too late.

By the way, looking at the photo of where the pool deck/garage ceiling was connected to the columns that were still standing (column 72 and adjacent ones), one can see that the rebars failed at the connections. It's like one trying to prop up a piece of pie with a fork, and the fork simply punches through.

It may be possible that the rebars were inadequate, meaning bad construction. There's plenty of forensic evidence there for investigators to look at.

PS. Look at the 1st video, at 14:27. Column 72 still had rebars attached to it, but the rebars were pulled out of the slab that had fallen. It's like how one would debone a chicken. I counted only 8 rebars, 2 on each side of the column. Is that enough rebar? I am not a civil engineer to know.

PPS. Here's a photo of what I am talking about (linked from enr.com).

 

[Out of Steam]

Our experience is that some people arrive at very unusual conclusions. We are never certain how they got there.

We sold our home and traveled/rented furnished for a year. The market was going down so we then decided to rent. Some people thought that we had spent our home equity traveling and were forced to rent. Others that we could not longer afford a mortgage (even though we did not have one) because we retired early. Going down to one vehicle might also have fueled the suspicions. Rented for four years.

Then we bought into an HOA. Again, some people thought we no longer had the equity to buy a large home in the same area similar to what we owned before when our children were at home.

We retired and bought a house in a less expensive suburban area that isn't a conventional retirement destination. While we are living modestly while waiting for Social Security eligibility, a few people seem to have the idea that we've fallen on hard times.

 

[NW-Bound]

As I retired Civil Engineer with a Professional License, I am convinced the cause is either (1) a sinkhole or (2) the salt water environment caused the steel reinforcement rebars to corrode. In California, concrete bridges have a finite life if they are constructed in a salt water environment. These bridges are usually demolished at the end of their life so a new one can be built. Both of these causes will slip by an annual inspection. Special concrete can be utilized to minimize (but not eliminate) salt water from penetrating thru to the steel rebars. However, I doubt that this building utilized this special concrete. To my knowledge, California does not have a 40 years recertification process on a bridge with a known finite life.

I wonder about the age of various buildings along the coast of the US. Will this terrible accident cause a wholesale abandonment and demolition of older buildings?

It will be interesting to watch the property value of condos in desirable ocean locations. How about Hawaii?

 

[brett]

This collapse was self inflicted by residents who, on several occasions over a number of years, refused to accept the reality that urgent repairs were required and that large assessments were necessary to fund those repairs.

That is the long and the short of it. Sad. I have no doubt that there are other buildings in this area and in others that are in a similar situation.

Think about it....this is a 40 year old concrete building beside the sea. Their contingency fund was a $760K. According to a reported study the condo board commissioned the recommended balance should have been $10M. To me, that speaks volumes about the residents willingness to fund standard mtce and repairs.

 

[Sunset]

I wonder about the age of various buildings along the coast of the US. Will this terrible accident cause a wholesale abandonment and demolition of older buildings?

It will be interesting to watch the property value of condos in desirable ocean locations. How about Hawaii?

It was a few years ago, but I recall reading about high-rises in HI, and that there is some issue about them. It made me decide not to buy a high-rise in HI.

 

[MrsHaloFIRE]

I think that keeping HOA fees low are too much of a priority for alot of ppl. I recall our last HOA election, one guy was running solely on the platform of "keeping HOA fees low." MEt this guy and know how he operates. He was selling his prior home in the nieghborhood (he moved to a diff home, same neighborhood). He 1) asked me to lie to my realtor and buy his FSBO from him without her so he could save both ends of the real estate fee (no) 2) his roof was crap. when I had it expected it wasnt just the roof, it needed new rafters. He had let it go too long. ASked him about it, he had sued his insurance compay to replace it but after he paid his lawyer he didnt have any money to work on it so he pocketed the small amount remaining 3) I asked my inspector to find out why he was paying $400 plus a month in electric on a 2k sq ft 2 story house. inspector showed me where the ceiling wasnt in place in one of the crawl spaces so he was essentially air conditioning the attic. So this guy was trying to save money on the sale to the point of asking me to be unethical, sued to have his roof fixed won and never fixed it, and didnt "notice" a $400 electric bill in the summer. But HOA fees were on his mind. I dont get this guy. The amoutn of people that will do thigns like buy a new couch but not fix their plumbing astound me. THankfully, he was not elected. Which is good bc our neighborhood roads need to be repaved and the pool needs to be recoated. THose cans had been kicked too far down the road. I forsee this type of thing going on at those towers. At at others worldwide

 

[Ronstar]

As I retired Civil Engineer with a Professional License, I am convinced the cause is either (1) a sinkhole or (2) the salt water environment caused the steel reinforcement rebars to corrode.....

I agree. Especially No 2. The videos of the underground parking showed a lot of surface water damage. Standing water. Peeling ceiling paint. It stands to reason that water had been penetrating the foundation and columns.

And the area surrounding the trench drain at the bottom of the parking ramp. I can see how water could get past that drainage system into the concrete.

 

[Aerides]

Mod Note:

It will be many months, or more, before the full diagnosis of this disaster is known. In the meantime, rather than continuing armchair engineering or blame games, we're closing this thread out of respect for those lost and impacted by this tragedy.