The Electric Vehicle Thread

[explanade]

Yeah I heard public chargers will add surcharges.

They should be programmable so if hotel guests are told that if you leave your car at a charger too long there is a meter running.

 

[MRG]

There's millions of campgrounds in this country; each with a bunches of destination chargers. There everywhere! Even in remote places.

 

[Out of Steam]

There's millions of campgrounds in this country; each with a bunches of destination chargers. There everywhere! Even in remote places.

I think they will be quite important as backup chargers in rural areas, though campgrounds with RV hookups are usually not the most suitable for tent campers, who will be most of their early EV customers.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

Level 2 Destination Chargers are run separately from the Tesla superchargers and other operators such as Electrify America, Charge Point & EVGO. They are usually operated by hotels, restaurants & other businesses such as IKEA. Most are used on the honor system & from what I have seen there have been few problems. However, most hotels with a destination charger will contact an EV owner if they need the car moved.

Businesses want these customers because they are more likely stay at their business longer. That may change as EV's make a larger presence on highways. Some hotels do have level 3 DCFC's (Direct Current Fast Chargers) that are operated by Tesla et al. Those are clearly marked & owners face the penalties that have been discussed. I've stayed at hotels that have those & get a message that my charging session is complete & that I need to move my car. I move it so that others will have an opportunity to use the charger. I love it because it saves time in the morning because I don't need to find a gas station. These are minor changes to how we drive & have been easy to switch to. Hotels do this as a way of attracting more business & it seems to work. I've noticed numerous EV's at some hotels, especially in CA. Slightly longer trips? Yes & I'm usually less tired. I know that seems counterintuitive, but that's often how it works. Stopping & stretching for a few minutes more often seems to be better. Plus I see places that I probably wouldn't go to if I used gas stations. For example there is a great stop in Twin Falls Idaho at the Chamber Of Commerce. Great view of the Snake River Gorge, where you can sometimes watch bungee jumpers. It might not be for everyone but it is fun. Since I retired I'm less of a road warrior & more of a person that wants to see the countryside.

 

[explanade]

It's a big capital expense for hotels. Especially if they had to add say 10 chargers.

Maybe best to partner with companies who run chargers and have them build and pay for the electricity directly.

Right now, there aren't enough EVs that hotels have to worry about putting in chargers or having enough chargers for their guests.

Of course some hotels will see this as a new way to make money, like the $2 a minute phone calls they used to have but has disappeared since people got cell phones.

Now they charge for wifi or charge for the upgrade "business class" wifi.

 

[braumeister]

It's a big capital expense for hotels. Especially if they had to add say 10 chargers.

I wonder. I stayed at a hotel last year where the back parking lot behind that hotel and the one next door had a lineup of at least ten Tesla destination chargers and five regular Level 2 chargers. I don't know about the Teslas, but the level 2 stations were free (I have a PHEV).

I also saw (in another city) a hotel that had several Tesla superchargers in its own parking lot. They were the only superchargers within at least 100 miles.

So I think at least some hotels are seeing charging stations as an incentive for people to stay there.

 

[Chuckanut]

At some point charging stations may join little bottles of shampoo, virtual checkin, and breakfast buffets as the SOP for hotels. Take the car out to the charging station, go back in and have breakfast while the Model S3XY charges, checkout using your phone, and then [-]roar[/-] hum away in a cloud of electrons.

 

[audreyh1]

When I was running between NC and IL when my dad was sick, the last thing I wanted to do was make it a nice drive with long, lazy stops.

Now when DW and I go cross country, we sometimes do operate that way. We use mostly routes near major interstates, so perhaps it would be possible to do the lazy stop for charging thing.

Our trips back and forth 1200 miles during Covid (due to father ill, then estate dealings) were by car by necessity. Pre-pandemic we flew, and will resume flying when it’s safer. Our expectation is that any long future road trips will be for travel/leisure, and don’t mind slowing it down a bit if needed. If it’s too far, or there are time constraints, then we’ll fly.

 

[explanade]

I wonder. I stayed at a hotel last year where the back parking lot behind that hotel and the one next door had a lineup of at least ten Tesla destination chargers and five regular Level 2 chargers. I don't know about the Teslas, but the level 2 stations were free (I have a PHEV).

I also saw (in another city) a hotel that had several Tesla superchargers in its own parking lot. They were the only superchargers within at least 100 miles.

So I think at least some hotels are seeing charging stations as an incentive for people to stay there.

Earlier this year I got estimates to add 240V 50-amp sockets in my garage, which is where the panel is.

If they add it right under the panel, it's one price. If they add it to the rear of the garage, away from the panel because some EVs have charge ports in the back, it's like x plus $800 to run a line along the walls to the back.

So unless these hotels had huge panel with plenty of amperage to add multiple 30 amp lines, it can't have been a trivia cost.

 

[Amethyst]

Can it have been as simple as the coin battery in the car key dying? Nothing will work in our (gas-powered) car if the key is not present, or is dead.

Ours was giving the "low key battery" warning for at least a week before I got around to prying open the key and changing the battery.

 

[Ready]

EV’s generally work very well for a large percentage of the population. Specifically:

1) Those who live in dense, highly populated areas with lots of charging stations available.
2) Those who don’t frequently take long trips.
3) Those who have a second car to handle the longer trips.

If I lived in an area that did not have a lot of charging stations, frequently drive long trips, and don’t have a second car that runs on gas, I would not buy an EV.

In addition, if I were looking to buy a Tesla but the nearest Tesla service center was 100+ miles away from my home, I would not buy a Tesla. Sometimes the mobile ranger can handle issues, but if you need to take your car in for service you are looking at an entire day to get there and an entire day to pick it up. That would be enough to deter me.

But I would guess that those who fit into the above criteria for being a good fit represent a very sizable potential market share for EVs. It makes more sense for manufacturers to target those markets first, and then worry about reaching out to the rural areas after the adoption rate is higher.

 

[m3bs]

Service will be less of an issue once the car can drive itself to the service center.

 

[RobLJ]

Primes aren't available in Nevada, so we picked one up in Elk Grove on the way to babysit the grandsons for our oldest, the winemaker, in the Cali Central Valley. We paid retail. Our oldest son the winemaker is looking at getting a trailer and DW complained about driving the Silverado in town, so we sold it at a low price to our son.
2 trips to Cali and DW's camping trip to Valley of Fire outside Vegas (we're in Reno), and DW is very happy. Despite the long trips, the overall gas mileage including e-charges is 47.5. That goes up when we use it on electric around town.

We use the Bolt for intermediate/other trips, so our gasoline expenditures are disappearing compared to the truck and Forester. The solar inverter gave out last weekend, so we're charging for a week or two off the utility until it gets replaced (it's on warranty), so transportation costs are slim.

The combination of an EV and PHEV is pretty compelling, at least for families like us with 2 vehicles and solar/charger.

That’s pretty typical when a new vehicle comes out and it’s in short supply. Hopefully that has ended. If you can get a RAV 4 Prime for a decent price now I think it’s a great buy because it still qualifies for the full $7,500 federal rebate. That makes it a very attractive option for someone looking for an SUV and wanting some of the efficiencies of an EV while still having access to an ICE motor for longer trips.

 

[Urchina]

Recommendations for tall people?

O tall people of the thread, hear my plea for help (in the form of your opinions, which in my experience this forum has been happy to share).

We are shopping for our first EV (plug-in hybrids are an option, too). While I'd love to spend every weekend test-sitting different EVs, I just don't have the time. I'm hoping the hive mind here can help us narrow our search.

Our challenge: finding an EV that will seat 4 tall people (6'5", 6'0, 5'11 and growing, 5'9 and growing).

The 6'5 er does not need to fit in the back seat.

We're open to all ideas, though to be honest we won't be buying the luxury EVs. Anything over $60K is probably not going to happen.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

 

[explanade]

Most of the EVs other than Tesla seem to be compact-sized, such as the Bolt or Leaf.

I think among the SUVs which have come out, the Mach E may be the biggest in the interiors and even then it might not be that big.

Here is a comparison of 3 EVs and one plug-in hybrid.

https://www.cars.com/research/compa...2A0,USD10FOS391A0,USD10VWS091A0,USD10TOS221A0

You can compare up to 4 at a time. Configure it to only show the specifications which will show front and rear headroom, shoulder room, legroom.

You can remove one of the cars and put in what you're current car is, so that you know how it compares to these EVs.

 

[Urchina]

Thanks, Explanade! Will play around with this!

 

[NW-Bound]

There's a limit to how fast EVs can be rolled out, even if all new car buyers want one.

Where do we get all that electricity?

FreeWire, a fast charging provider, says the biggest problem is infrastructure. The organization argues that utilities just can’t provide the power needs for modern EV’s, which require 3 to 4 times the power output that utilities can provide at the moment.

See: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/will...e-be-an-ev-charger-not-so-fast-191236396.html

 

[JoeWras]

Where do we get all that electricity?

Nuclear would be a good, clean-air option. Still have to work on the grid, though.

 

[audreyh1]

O tall people of the thread, hear my plea for help (in the form of your opinions, which in my experience this forum has been happy to share).

We are shopping for our first EV (plug-in hybrids are an option, too). While I'd love to spend every weekend test-sitting different EVs, I just don't have the time. I'm hoping the hive mind here can help us narrow our search.

Our challenge: finding an EV that will seat 4 tall people (6'5", 6'0, 5'11 and growing, 5'9 and growing).

The 6'5 er does not need to fit in the back seat.

We're open to all ideas, though to be honest we won't be buying the luxury EVs. Anything over $60K is probably not going to happen.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

DH 6’4” fit in a Model Y very comfortably. He even tried the back seat. So you might test drive that to see. Or just go sit in one.

 

[Midpack]

There's a limit to how fast EVs can be rolled out, even if all new car buyers want one.

Where do we get all that electricity?

FreeWire, a fast charging provider, says the biggest problem is infrastructure. The organization argues that utilities just can’t provide the power needs for modern EV’s, which require 3 to 4 times the power output that utilities can provide at the moment.

See: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/will...e-be-an-ev-charger-not-so-fast-191236396.html

Looks like alarmist clickbait to me. There are way too many “analyses” online that assume we’ll charge EVs in the same manner as we visit gas stations...

Some perspective. The average US household uses about 30 kWh/day (HI 17, LA 42). If you drive an EV 13,500 miles/year, you’d need about. 11 kWh/day to charge it. These are only intended as order of magnitude.

Maybe I missed it, but that source didn’t seem to acknowledge that 80% of EVs are charged at home, and that could be managed to automatically occur during off peak hours when there is already excess supply of electricity. That uneven demand has been a challenge to utilities for generations. There’s no good reason to just assume EV charging will occur at current pre-EV peak hours. Some EV owners already have smart chargers that take advantage of off-peak rates by charging when household demand is lower (people are asleep) and power plants have excess capacity.

Any analysis that assumes all EVs will be charged at public chargers, e.g. we’ll need supercharger to replace gasoline filling stations, is suspect. You can charge an EV at home, you can’t fill your car with gasoline at home. Many commercial users can also charge at night when some buses, deliveries, and other vehicles aren’t in use. Smart EV charging can greatly reduce the power plant increases needed by managing/leveling demand.

Two way charging could further level demand, that’s existing tech.

We’ll need more grid capacity, but it doesn’t need to be 3 to 4 times.

The most serious concern for utilities is controlling when EV charging stations (known as EVSE, or Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) will apply load to the grid. A high percentage of consumers will instinctively charge their EVs when they get home from work, likely having a serious impact on peak demand on the grid. With EV home charging stations typically drawing an electricity load of 6.6kW (240V and 30 amps) - roughly the equivalent to the load of an entire house at 7kW – a single EV can double a home’s peak load, and even low levels of EV adoption in a particular neighborhood can strain existing power infrastructure. In fact, data released by the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) suggests that if two customers on the same transformer plugged in 6.6 kW charging stations during a peak time, their charging load, in addition to existing load, may exceed the emergency rating of roughly 40 percent of today’s distribution transformers.

However, the growing EV trend will not necessarily require utilities to add new generation capacity or make extreme infrastructure upgrades. According to the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), approximately 160 million vehicles in the U.S. could be powered solely from existing off-peak generating capacity. This means that many utilities could initially support EV charging by better managing existing generation.

Griddy’s Craig said power providers and grid operators will need to know when to ramp up for the added electricity demand for charging vehicles. “With timing, the challenge is when do these consumers charge their electric vehicles? In most grids, the peak hours are the ones right when people are arriving home from work, so if consumers are coming home and immediately plugging their EV in to receive a charge, that is going to add a substantial amount of difficulty for the grid operator,” Craig said. “Not only is that overall volume going to be high, but it has the risk of all coming in at the peak. Hypothetically, electric vehicles don’t have to be a challenging aspect of the grid in this way because they certainly can be charged off-peak when generators are producing excess energy. Realistically though, the natural consumer behavior will simply be to charge it as soon as they get home.”

A recent article from The Conversation (a global network of newsrooms), written by researchers at the University of Texas and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, says, “if virtually all passenger cars in Texas were electrified today, that state would need approximately 110 more terawatt-hours of electricity per year—the average annual electricity consumption of 11 million homes. The added electricity demand would result in a 30 percent increase over current consumption in Texas.” The report went on to note complete electrification of passenger vehicle transportation in California “might require nearly 50 percent more electricity.”

https://electricenergyonline.com/en...cles-and-the-Smart-Grid-Charging-Forward-.htm

https://www.powermag.com/driving-change-on-the-grid-the-impact-of-ev-adoption/

Vehicle use by time of day

 

[Ready]

We are shopping for our first EV (plug-in hybrids are an option, too). While I'd love to spend every weekend test-sitting different EVs, I just don't have the time. I'm hoping the hive mind here can help us narrow our search. !

Tesla is the only manufacturer with its own charging network. For that reason I don’t consider non-Tesla EV’s to be a viable option unless you never plan to take them on longer trips. Given your budget you could do well with either the Model 3 or the Model Y.

 

[Zathras]

It's a big capital expense for hotels. Especially if they had to add say 10 chargers.

Maybe best to partner with companies who run chargers and have them build and pay for the electricity directly.

Right now, there aren't enough EVs that hotels have to worry about putting in chargers or having enough chargers for their guests.

Of course some hotels will see this as a new way to make money, like the $2 a minute phone calls they used to have but has disappeared since people got cell phones.

Now they charge for wifi or charge for the upgrade "business class" wifi.

The Tesla chargers are of little to no cost for the hotels. I expect the other DC chargers are similar.
Tesla, in some cases, leases the parking spots from hotels. They then pay for the installation work.

The non Tesla level 2 charging is a different beast.
However, the level 2 installs are much, much easier than the DC fast charging.

 

[someguy]

The model 3 and Y have a surprising amount of space, especially head room. More, IMO, than the much larger model S.

The VW id4 and Mach E are worth sitting in. Also, the RAV4 Prime plug in hybrid, if you can find one.

O tall people of the thread, hear my plea for help (in the form of your opinions, which in my experience this forum has been happy to share).

We are shopping for our first EV (plug-in hybrids are an option, too). While I'd love to spend every weekend test-sitting different EVs, I just don't have the time. I'm hoping the hive mind here can help us narrow our search.

Our challenge: finding an EV that will seat 4 tall people (6'5", 6'0, 5'11 and growing, 5'9 and growing).

The 6'5 er does not need to fit in the back seat.

We're open to all ideas, though to be honest we won't be buying the luxury EVs. Anything over $60K is probably not going to happen.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

 

[MRG]

O tall people of the thread, hear my plea for help (in the form of your opinions, which in my experience this forum has been happy to share). [emoji23]

We are shopping for our first EV (plug-in hybrids are an option, too). While I'd love to spend every weekend test-sitting different EVs, I just don't have the time. I'm hoping the hive mind here can help us narrow our search.

Our challenge: finding an EV that will seat 4 tall people (6'5", 6'0, 5'11 and growing, 5'9 and growing).

The 6'5 er does not need to fit in the back seat.

We're open to all ideas, though to be honest we won't be buying the luxury EVs. Anything over $60K is probably not going to happen.

Many thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Model Y. There's a review stating the 6'5" driver sat behind himself in the rear seat and plenty of room.

 

[Zathras]

You can certainly check out the 3, but I suspect it won't meet your needs.
I would recommend checking out the Model Y, Mach-E and the Pacifica plug-in hybrid.