The Electric Vehicle Thread

[RobLJ]

We're actually driving considerably more during the pandemic since we've been doing a lot of camping--went to Joshua Tree 3 weeks ago and a lot of babysitting the grandkids in the Central Valley.


I intended to make fun of myself with the engineer crack but admittedly it sounds snarkier.

 

[Koolau]

We're actually driving considerably more during the pandemic since we've been doing a lot of camping--went to Joshua Tree 3 weeks ago and a lot of babysitting the grandkids in the Central Valley.


I intended to make fun of myself with the engineer crack but admittedly it sounds snarkier.

That little tidbit about little Tommy is actually about a HS friend who was failing trig. Someone asked him before class one day what he wanted to be when he grew up and he answered "an engineer." We were all incredulous which led to the question "what kind" and his answer "Choo choo." Maybe you had to be there as YMMV.

 

[NW-Bound]

Yesterday, I made a grocery run with my wife, in the new car we bought on Jan 2 this year.

I looked at the odometer. It showed 1198 miles. That's it for 6 months of ownership. And that even included a quick trip to our high-country boondocks home, else the odometer would show only 900 miles.

1200 miles in 6 months? I think I have put gas in the car only twice, after leaving the dealership with the tank full. Well, maybe 3 times.


PS. I forgot that I also took the other 2 older cars for some short errands, just to be sure that their batteries got charged up. That's another 50 miles, perhaps.

 

[Midpack]

Absolutely... Along with eliminating all subsidies.

Do you mean EV tax credits, or all subsidies/credits including oil & gas that benefit ICE owners? I tend to dislike/have mixed feelings about subsidies/tax credits but I don’t think we (self included) realize how many “all” is - direct and indirect. Farm subsidies, child tax credits, mortgage deductions, charitable contributions, capital gains, the list is endless…

 

[Car-Guy]

Do you mean EV tax credits, or all subsidies/credits including oil & gas that benefit ICE owners? I tend to dislike/have mixed feelings about subsidies/tax credits but I don’t think we (self included) realize how many “all” is - direct and indirect. Farm subsidies, child tax credits, mortgage deductions, charitable contributions, capital gains, the list is endless…

"Well this is an EV thread" so yes, I was talking about EV tax credits/subsidies. In general I too have mixed feelings on many/other tax subsidies.or credits.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Do you mean EV tax credits, or all subsidies/credits including oil & gas that benefit ICE owners? I tend to dislike/have mixed feelings about subsidies/tax credits but I don’t think we (self included) realize how many “all” is - direct and indirect. Farm subsidies, child tax credits, mortgage deductions, charitable contributions, capital gains, the list is endless…

"Well this is an EV thread" so yes I was talking about EV tax credits/subsidies. In general I too have mixed feelings on many/other tax subsidies.or credits.

My feelings aren't mixed - all subsidies should be eliminated.

I wouldn't call the cap gains tax rules a subsidy, as has been discussed here before, by not indexing to inflation that "preferential rate" sometimes isn't.

And I've never done a deep dive into this, but I'm pretty sure that much of what some anti-fossil-fuel types refer to as "oil & gas subsidies" are just the same write off of business expenses as any other company uses, part of the basic tax code. To the extent there are any special subsidies/credits, I'm against them.

-ERD50

 

[Fermion]

I am not against "all subsidies" as I think subsidies that keep industries alive that are important to the safety and independence of the nation are important.

You don't want to be in a situation where some world event means you are cut off from production of some important item because it was not cost effective to produce it in your own country.

 

[Midpack]

"Well this is an EV thread" so yes, I was talking about EV tax credits/subsidies. In general I too have mixed feelings on many/other tax subsidies.or credits.

Obviously this is an EV thread, but your post said “all” subsidies, and I wasn’t sure if you meant all or just the EV tax credit. Hopefully you’d also want to eliminate the oil & gas subsidies, dealer subsidies and any others that benefit ICE vehicles. I’m all for a level playing field. Again in the broader sense beyond cars, subsidies and credits are pervasive in our tax structure. I have a funny feeling those who say they’re against all subsides often want to choose exceptions…

 

[ERD50]

... I have a funny feeling those who say they’re against all subsides often want to choose exceptions…

Your funny feeling is wrong in my case, and not so funny IMO.

It doesn't really help a discussion to prejudge what others have to say on an issue.

I am not against "all subsidies" as I think subsidies that keep industries alive that are important to the safety and independence of the nation are important.

You don't want to be in a situation where some world event means you are cut off from production of some important item because it was not cost effective to produce it in your own country.

Good point, but I still don't think "subsidies" are the right way to go about it, at least not just price or tax credit approaches. Maybe critical industries need to be regulated to some degree for "the common good". Not sure of how to go about that exactly, but giving consumers a tax credit to make the product artificially cheap to spur demand doesn't seem like the right way to me.

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

Your funny feeling is wrong in my case, and not so funny IMO.

It doesn't really help a discussion to prejudge what others have to say on an issue.

I didn’t specify you or anyone else. Are you suggesting there aren’t any hypocrites when it comes to tax subsidies/credits - really? I assume you agree that we should eliminate the EV credit AND any subsidies/credits that benefit ICE owners as well. Again, I’m all for a level playing field.

 

[ERD50]

I didn’t specify you or anyone else. ....

Then why mention it? It comes across as a rather weaselly wording. "Oh, I didn't mean you when I made this broad brush negative statement!".

All I'm saying is those words aren't constructive.

... Are you suggesting there aren’t any hypocrites when it comes to tax subsidies/credits - really? I assume you agree that we should eliminate the EV credit AND any subsidies/credits that benefit ICE owners as well. Again, I’m all for a level playing field.

Of course there are hypocrites, and they exist on both sides - so what's the point? I already said as plainly as I can that I want to see all credits/subsidies eliminated, no need for assumptions.

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

Then why mention it? It comes across as a rather weaselly wording. "Oh, I didn't mean you when I made this broad brush negative statement!".

All I'm saying is those words aren't constructive.

You’re the one making this personal, why? My point was simply singling out the EV tax credit alone for elimination might be hypocritical, some posts seem to be unclear there.

 

[ERD50]

You’re the one making this personal, why? My point was simply singling out the EV tax credit alone for elimination might be hypocritical, some posts seem to be unclear there.

I'm not going to escalate this. The posts are there for all to see (if they care, and they probably shouldn't).

Now, what was that about EVs?

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

OK, a pure EV related question (well, Tesla related anyhow):

I just haven't kept track lately, but I think it's fair to say that when it comes to Tesla, Elon has way over-promised in many areas (while delivering in many others). I've lost track of what the release dates and past promises look like for The Tesla Pickup and Semi. Can anyone give a summary of those?

I'm just curious about the Semi in general, and how they will be supported when they need a Mega Charger for fast charging. I assume they will be limited at first to routes where they can charge overnight?

And how many Tesla pickup buyers will be interested in towing? Yes, the battery weight and low end torque give the EV pickup an advantage, but I've also seen some analysis of how towing really, really cuts the range down.

While it seems counter-intuitive at first, the very fact that EVs are very efficient at getting energy from the batteries to the ground actually makes the range impact of towing more extreme than the inefficient ICE. Wait, I thought efficiency was good, right? Yes, but with little waste, adding the extra demand from towing means none of it comes from any wasted power. If 90% efficient across a wide range of loads, then doubling the load means near doubling the energy requirement.

But for the wasteful ICE, some of the wasted energy is fixed, independent of load (idling for example). And an ICE is actually much more efficient at full load than at low load (see Brake-specific fuel consumption - BSFC), so the waste (as a %) goes down as the load increases. Sure, fuel consumption increases, but not as much relative to demand.

I saw one video of someone towing with a Model S (IIRC - edit, no towing for an S, must have been an X or Y)), using it max or near max tow capacity. It was an extreme example to illustrate, but I think range was cut in half. Having to stop and charge every 100 miles could be challenging in a lot of places people might want to do some towing.

Anyone have an opinion if that's going to keep a significant % of potential Tesla pickup buyers away?

TIA - ERD50

 

[Aerides]

Mod Note:
We allow a certain amount of leeway in EV discussions but subsidies=politics=quick way to get ugly and off track.

Maybe stick to the cars? There's surely enough there to argue about.

 

[Texas Proud]

Maxed out EV Hummer is over 9000 lbs....









https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...ric-hummer-will-weigh-as-much-as-four-miatas/

 

[Koolau]

You don't want to be in a situation where some world event means you are cut off from production of some important item because it was not cost effective to produce it in your own country.

I too worry about "shortages" of strategic materials/strategic production - especially when caused by the whim of geopolitical disagreements between nations. IF such potential shortages are to be addressed by gummints, why not do it more directly and have gummint store strategic reserves (as the USA does oil). WAG: Some of that goes on now. Another WAG: Potentially affected companies do too. I recall my Megacorp storing "volatile" (price wise/availability wise) materials against that day when they are otherwise unavailable due to geopolitical issues. NOW, most of that fell by the wayside during our (my Megacorp's) jumping on the JIT bandwagon. I saw real problems with JIT and my Megacrop NEVER DID get it right.

Returning you now.... YMMV

 

[NW-Bound]

OK, a pure EV related question (well, Tesla related anyhow):

I just haven't kept track lately, but I think it's fair to say that when it comes to Tesla, Elon has way over-promised in many areas (while delivering in many others). I've lost track of what the release dates and past promises look like for The Tesla Pickup and Semi. Can anyone give a summary of those?

I'm just curious about the Semi in general, and how they will be supported when they need a Mega Charger for fast charging. I assume they will be limited at first to routes where they can charge overnight?

And how many Tesla pickup buyers will be interested in towing? Yes, the battery weight and low end torque give the EV pickup an advantage, but I've also seen some analysis of how towing really, really cuts the range down.

While it seems counter-intuitive at first, the very fact that EVs are very efficient at getting energy from the batteries to the ground actually makes the range impact of towing more extreme than the inefficient ICE. Wait, I thought efficiency was good, right? Yes, but with little waste, adding the extra demand from towing means none of it comes from any wasted power. If 90% efficient across a wide range of loads, then doubling the load means near doubling the energy requirement.

But for the wasteful ICE, some of the wasted energy is fixed, independent of load (idling for example). And an ICE is actually much more efficient at full load than at low load (see Brake-specific fuel consumption - BSFC), so the waste (as a %) goes down as the load increases. Sure, fuel consumption increases, but not as much relative to demand.

I saw one video of someone towing with a Model S (IIRC - edit, no towing for an S, must have been an X or Y)), using it max or near max tow capacity. It was an extreme example to illustrate, but I think range was cut in half. Having to stop and charge every 100 miles could be challenging in a lot of places people might want to do some towing.

Anyone have an opinion if that's going to keep a significant % of potential Tesla pickup buyers away?

TIA - ERD50

Ugh! That could be a big problem for a utility vehicle.

I searched the Web and found an article by Edmunds which says the following.

There's a faint guideline on the energy consumption graph of every Tesla. It represents how many watt-hours per mile you must average to achieve the rated range. Our Model X P90D is rated at 250 miles, and to match that a driver must average 330 watt-hours per mile.

Last summer our Model X averaged just 612 watt-hours per mile towing the adventure trailer to Flagstaff. I recalculated that in terms of range and came up with just 135 miles. Our average recharge time of 1 hour and 34 minutes was pretty dreadful, too.

The "adventure trailer" they talk about was a tear-drop camper! See photo below. The lower photo is a Happier Camper trailer that they were towing in a 2nd test.

For that Happier Camper, this was what they reported:

Day One Summary:

Drive distance: 217 miles
Total time: 8 hours, 9 minutes (5 hours, 2 minutes driving; 3 hours, 7 minutes charging)
Effective travel speed: 26.6 mph
Average consumption: 555 Wh/mi

Ugh!

This is for Day 2:

Day Two Summary:

Drive distance: 308 miles
Total time: 11 hours, 48 minutes (8 hours, 4 minutes driving, 3 hours, 44 minutes charging)
Effective travel speed: 25.4 mph
Average consumption: 539 Wh/mi

Day Three and Day Four were about the same.

For more info, read this report series: https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model...est-reboot-with-a-happier-camper-trailer.html.

 

[audreyh1]

Jay Leno actually does break the record. New Model S Plaid just released and first cars delivered Thursday night at an unveiling event.

 

[Midpack]

^^ I saw that. It’s amazing there will be a $130-140K production car that’s faster (quarter mile and 0-60) than ANY other production car ever made - including Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Bugatti, some costing millions! Even with Jay Leno driving (a good driver but not a pro), and he said the air conditioning was on when he did his quarter mile… which

 

[NW-Bound]

I would be much more impressed when someone can build an electric car, truck, or SUV that can tow a modest travel trailer for 300+ miles between charges.

Right now, that requires a 3x increase in battery capacity. There's nothing in sight in battery development that promises that.

This means my expectation of owning an electric pickup has been damped off.

 

[Car-Guy]

I would be much more impressed when someone can build an electric car, truck, or SUV that can tow a modest travel trailer for 300+ miles between charges.

Right now, that requires a 3x increase in battery capacity. There's nothing in sight in battery development that promises that.

This means my expectation of owning an electric pickup has been damped off.

I didn't realize (didn't really think about) EV's having such a limitation, so I learned sometime new here today... Makes sense though. Just another compromise folks have to make/consider when going to EV.

 

[Midpack]

Of course there's an impact on range/cost per mile with all vehicles while towing, so for some comparison.

Based on the statistics pulled from the vehicle, the Model Y was at 45% efficiency while towing the boat. That is less than half of the range a driver would normally get while not towing a boat. It was a bit cold during this trial (64 degrees Fahrenheit/18 degrees Celsius), which also could have impacted the range. With the efficiency at 45%, that’s a pretty big difference. Many ICE vehicles will get about 20% to 40% loss of efficiency.

Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. And admittedly there are ICE vehicles that can tow 300+ miles. FWIW

 

[Car-Guy]

.
Doesn't address the difference in EV charging versus gasoline refueling convenience. FWIW

And "IMO" that's one of the biggest issues they need to fix.... YMMV

I once towed another car (on a trailer) with my pickup from central Texas to central Florida... About a 1000 mile trip and drove it straight through... I remember averaging about 10mpg while towing the trailer/car.... I made several extra fueling stops on that trip but I never felt I lost much time. IMO, that just wouldn't have been practical in an EV...

 

[ERD50]

Ugh! That could be a big problem for a utility vehicle.
...
For that Happier Camper, this was what they reported:

Day One Summary:

Drive distance: 217 miles
Total time: 8 hours, 9 minutes (5 hours, 2 minutes driving; 3 hours, 7 minutes charging)
Effective travel speed: 26.6 mph
Average consumption: 555 Wh/mi

Ugh! ....

So it really is that bad. Anything other than local towing just isn't realistic for these EVs (but again, not sure what % of truck buyers tow like that).

Another efficiency factor is wind resistance. Tesla has been very attentive to reduce air drag on their cars to maximize range, but that gets thrown out the window with these trailers. So for a regular truck, with poor drag to begin with, the added drag from the trailer isn't such a large percentage increase in power required.

And if the range is less than 150 miles, how do you manage to get to a charging station when towing in some desolate area? They'd need to be spaced much closer than 150 miles to handle normal variations in usage.

-ERD50