The Electric Vehicle Thread

[audreyh1]

Battery recycling? The whole car I guess.

A few months later, in July, Sullins created an update. In his update, he determined Tesla batteries will hold up to 80% of their original capacity over 310,000 miles. The average driver, who drives 13,5000 annually, would not need to replace their Tesla’s original battery for over 23 years.

https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-long-will-my-tesla-battery-last

 

[NW-Bound]

Our solar panel battery storage is old EV batteries and we were told to expect another 10 years life out of them.

Someone will figure out a way to recycle or safely dispose of them over the next 10 to 20 years.

I recall that the battery in your system is LiFePO4, and the system maker was a Chinese company. While there are no EVs in the US that use this type of lithium cell, I read that lithium-iron-phosphate cells have been popular for use in Chinese public buses. These are large format cells that generally look like this, and weigh 12 lbs each.

LiFePO4 is the safest lithium chemistry, is cheaper to make (it has no expensive metals such as cobalt), lasts longer than other types, and is quite popular in industrial applications and energy storage systems.

Tesla now uses LiFePO4 cells in its Chinese production line, but I have not been able to find any technical detail about this. Generally, LiFePO4 cells have lower energy density than lithium-nickel-cobalt cells, both in volume and in weight. Cars made with LiFePO4 cells would have a shorter driving range, but for fixed installations this type is the best.

 

[NW-Bound]

Battery recycling? The whole car I guess.

https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-long-will-my-tesla-battery-last

Tesla batteries last much longer than expected. Tesla deserves the credit for good thermal management of the cells, and Panasonic who makes the cells likely has some secret sauce.

Still, random failures happen, and just one bad cell out of the 7000+ cells in a Tesla battery can reduce the mileage of the whole pack.

I posted earlier a YouTube video about how Gruber Motor could open a pack, pinpoint the bad cell and snip its connecting wire to disable it.

Here's another video about another pack with the same problem.

This new video shows another potential cause of failures: salty air in coastal areas.

 

[Alan]

I recall that the battery in your system is LiFePO4, and the system maker was a Chinese company. While there are no EVs in the US that use this type of lithium cell, I read that lithium-iron-phosphate cells have been popular for use in Chinese public buses. These are large format cells that generally look like this, and weigh 12 lbs each.

LiFePO4 is the safest lithium chemistry, is cheaper to make (it has no expensive metals such as cobalt), lasts longer than other types, and is quite popular in industrial applications and energy storage systems.

Tesla now uses LiFePO4 cells in its Chinese production line, but I have not been able to find any technical detail about this. Generally, LiFePO4 cells have lower energy density than lithium-nickel-cobalt cells, both in volume and in weight. Cars made with LiFePO4 cells would have a shorter driving range, but for fixed installations this type is the best.

They are Pylontech batteries.

 

[Koolau]

I recall that the battery in your system is LiFePO4, and the system maker was a Chinese company. While there are no EVs in the US that use this type of lithium cell, I read that lithium-iron-phosphate cells have been popular for use in Chinese public buses. These are large format cells that generally look like this, and weigh 12 lbs each.

LiFePO4 is the safest lithium chemistry, is cheaper to make (it has no expensive metals such as cobalt), lasts longer than other types, and is quite popular in industrial applications and energy storage systems.

Tesla now uses LiFePO4 cells in its Chinese production line, but I have not been able to find any technical detail about this. Generally, LiFePO4 cells have lower energy density than lithium-nickel-cobalt cells, both in volume and in weight. Cars made with LiFePO4 cells would have a shorter driving range, but for fixed installations this type is the best.

I could see something like this being useful for quick-replacement applications within a car. Perhaps your daily commute is a total of 50 miles. You open the back seat (or trunk, etc.) and pop in (say) 5 of these batteries. By night, you have an equal number already charged for the next day. On the weekend, you want to visit grandma, so you put in all your batteries and do the 90 mile round trip.

For "long" trips, you stop at a "gas station" and rent/exchange a dozen batteries and off you go - for maybe another 2 hours. No big, complicated metallic container hidden under the car needing to stay hermetically sealed - just (almost) "loose" batteries to place into a rack under the seat or in the trunk. Charging could be in or out of the car because the batteries are light enough to heft around. You could add to your supply when ever you get some money ahead. ALWAYS carrying around 1000 lbs of batteries isn't all that efficient - especially when mostly all you do is commute 50 miles rather than do over-the-road trips.

Just a thought that occurred when looking at these "manageable sized" batteries. YMMV

 

[Alan]

I could see something like this being useful for quick-replacement applications within a car. Perhaps your daily commute is a total of 50 miles. You open the back seat (or trunk, etc.) and pop in (say) 5 of these batteries. By night, you have an equal number already charged for the next day. On the weekend, you want to visit grandma, so you put in all your batteries and do the 90 mile round trip.

For "long" trips, you stop at a "gas station" and rent/exchange a dozen batteries and off you go - for maybe another 2 hours. No big, complicated metallic container hidden under the car needing to stay hermetically sealed - just (almost) "loose" batteries to place into a rack under the seat or in the trunk. Charging could be in or out of the car because the batteries are light enough to heft around. You could add to your supply when ever you get some money ahead. ALWAYS carrying around 1000 lbs of batteries isn't all that efficient - especially when mostly all you do is commute 50 miles rather than do over-the-road trips.

Just a thought that occurred when looking at these "manageable sized" batteries. YMMV

Those batteries weigh approximately 1kg per 90-160 Wh of power so for 50 kWh that would weigh [-]>100 kgs? [/-] a lot. I don't think it is practical, plus if it was easy enough to change the batteries they will be easy enough to steal.

Nominal cell voltage: 3.2 V
Specific energy: 90–160 Wh/kg (320–580 J/g or kJ/kg)
Energy density: 325 Wh/L (1200 kJ/L)
Cycle durability: 2,000-12000 cycles
Energy/consumer-price: 3.0–24 Wh/US$
Specific power: around 200 W/kg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

 

[Koolau]

Those batteries weigh approximately 1kg per 90-160 Wh of power so for 50 kWh that would weigh [-]>100 kgs? [/-] a lot. I don't think it is practical, plus if it was easy enough to change the batteries they will be easy enough to steal.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

No idea what I'm talking about, but I think NW-bound indicated 12 lb/each battery. Shove half a dozen under the seat and that should do - what? - 40 or 50 miles?? Yeah, you could steal anything from inside a car if you break in. Just thinking out loud, so YMMV.

 

[Alan]

No idea what I'm talking about, but I think NW-bound indicated 12 lb/each battery. Shove half a dozen under the seat and that should do - what? - 40 or 50 miles?? Yeah, you could steal anything from inside a car if you break in. Just thinking out loud, so YMMV.

He didn't say how much power a 12lb battery delivered or how many miles/kWh an electric car can expect to get. I really do think there will be a weight problem in swappable batteries.

 

[Koolau]

He didn't say how much power a 12lb battery delivered or how many miles/kWh an electric car can expect to get. I really do think there will be a weight problem in swappable batteries.

I'm sure you are right. I'm betting, as we speak, NW-bound is figuring it out.

My thought was just that an average guy can easily, one-at-a-time, heft half a dozen 12 lb batteries in and out of his trunk (or under seat) with little problem. If that's enough for the daily commute (and I don't know - maybe it's 10 such batteries) it would mean not carrying around 1000 lbs of batteries for a 40 or 50 mile trip. Just thinking outside the box. YMMV

 

[Alan]

A Li-ion battery of the type I use with my solar panels, which come from an EV, weighs 32 kg (70.4 lbs) for 3.2kWh. Each battery also has some cables, electrical and comms, to connect between each battery.

https://www.alternergy.co.uk/pylontech-us3000-3-5-kwh-li-ion-solar-battery-lv


From elsewhere I read that:

Generally, the weight of the battery in a two-seat electric vehicle is within the range of 100 to 115 kg. For the vehicles that have a higher capacity say 60 to 100 kWh, the battery pack weight might increase to 385 to 544 kg approximately.

I do like the idea of exchangeable batteries.

 

[ERD50]

I'm sure you are right. I'm betting, as we speak, NW-bound is figuring it out.

My thought was just that an average guy can easily, one-at-a-time, heft half a dozen 12 lb batteries in and out of his trunk (or under seat) with little problem. If that's enough for the daily commute (and I don't know - maybe it's 10 such batteries) it would mean not carrying around 1000 lbs of batteries for a 40 or 50 mile trip. Just thinking outside the box. YMMV

But that is just battery weight. I assume the LiFePO4 batteries also need a cooling system, which complicates easy insert/remove. They also need to be installed to meet safety requirements in a crash (since LiFePO4 is safer, less of a concern, but I bet they still need some considerable structure around them). That all adds weight/complexity.

And if you only add 50 miles or so, you need a supply of batteries to swap at 50 mile intervals - that's a lot of swap stations and a lot of inventory.

That inventory will be sitting there mostly unused most of the time, just to provide a peak for a holiday. So while it sounds attractive, I think there are just too many side issues to be practical.

Hexck, I'd be happy if they just standardized on swap-able batteries for power tools and appliances like vacuum cleaners. Crazy to have these proprietary to a manufacturer, or built in which results in many devices being scrapped instead of simply swapping the battery. This is an area I'd like to see the environmentalists push manufacturers/public for a standard.

-ERD50

 

[Amethyst]

It infuriates me, too. I understand why companies want to prod people to purchase only their line, but the green aspect is important; environmentalists need to tune in.

Hexck, I'd be happy if they just standardized on swap-able batteries for power tools and appliances like vacuum cleaners. Crazy to have these proprietary to a manufacturer, or built in which results in many devices being scrapped instead of simply swapping the battery. This is an area I'd like to see the environmentalists push manufacturers/public for a standard.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

OK, I forgot to mention that the LiFePO4 battery whose photo I linked in earlier was rated at 280Ah. LiFePO4 cells have a lower nominal voltage of 3.2V, instead of the 3.6V of the other types. So, the energy of each cell is 3.2V x 280Ah = 896Wh, for an energy density of 6 kg/kWh (13 lb/kWh), or 163 Wh/kg (74 Wh/lb). The cell shown is among the latest breed of LiFePO4 type, so its energy density is at the high end of the range that Alan showed earlier.

This type of cell format is currently hot for home energy storage. Look on YouTube, and you will see hobbyists buying them by the dozens to put in their solar power storage system.

The photo shows a group of 4 cells. That's the minimum usable set, because 4 of these in series will give you 12.8V nominal, just right to replace the common 12V lead-acid battery. And of course, RV'ers are also buying these types of cells.

As for use in cars, the energy in each cell can give you 3 miles. That's it! A 12-lb battery is good for 3 miles (of course you need enough cells to have enough power to get the car to even starts to move). Haven't I kept telling people that cars are energy hogs, and you should all be walking or riding buses?

ERD50 is right about the complications of swapping batteries in cars. By the way, these cells handle several hundred amps, so the connections are made with big cables and bus bars. Drop a wrench across the terminals, and the wrench end explodes into molten metal in a fraction of a second.

 

[NW-Bound]

A Li-ion battery of the type I use with my solar panels, which come from an EV, weighs 32 kg (70.4 lbs) for 3.2kWh. Each battery also has some cables, electrical and comms, to connect between each battery.

https://www.alternergy.co.uk/pylontech-us3000-3-5-kwh-li-ion-solar-battery-lv

The above is most likely built with smaller cells similar to the one shown below. This cell format is also common.

The enclosure in your link would hold 16 cells, for a battery voltage of 48V.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here's how one guy uses these cells in a homebuilt set up.

I cringe when looking at this photo. Drop a long metallic object on top of this array of cells, and you will have an explosion and fire.

 

[wanaberetiree]

Electrical car owners ?

I am thinking to buy an EV and wonder what the current owners think.

+/- ? cost to charge? happiness? reliability?

Considering Tesla Y, Polestar 2.

Thx

 

[MRG]

I am thinking to buy an EV and wonder what the current owners think.

+/- ? cost to charge? happiness? reliability?

Considering Tesla Y, Polestar 2.

Thx

I bought a Y last June, you can't buy that particular configuration anymore. It's stealth performance, looks like a standard model except the spoiler. Does 0-60mph in 3.5 seconds. It's one of the early builds so there's some panel misaligned but not enough for me to care.

I charge at home for .0602 per KWH. Fourteen dollars per thousand miles is my calculation on costs. There's little maintenance, mainly tires and brakes. So far it's been a reliable vehicle it just goes.

I hit a deer when I was doing 70mph last November, no airbags but the front end was pushed back. I was told 12 weeks for the repair, mostly waiting for parts. This was done by a Tesla approved body shop in Albuquerque. I'd never use them or any non-Tesla shop again. It's been towed back and forth twice they sent it up to me without any of the technology working. No cruise, Autodrive, no safety features working. Other things were majorly jacked up too and they've been repaired elsewhere with the bodyshop picking up the damages. I hope to get the last two minor issues fixed next week. I had to get my insurance company and finally I'm working with the general manager of the bodyshop to get the issues resolved.

So depending on your location service may be an issue. We're in a remote area so I expected some issues just not from their approved shops. Lastly I don't recommend driving one if you're not ready to buy, you'll be heartbroken if you have to wait.

 

[braumeister]

Threads merged.

 

[Fermion]

I am kind of interested in an electric van if it is 4wd, but I have not seen that yet. Any idea if that will be on the horizon?

 

[Midpack]

I am kind of interested in an electric van if it is 4wd, but I have not seen that yet. Any idea if that will be on the horizon?

https://electrek.co/2021/01/29/tesla-electric-van-coming-batteries/

But I wouldn't hold my breath, they haven't shipped the

• updated Model S/X yet (June?),
• Cybertruck,
• Semi or
• updated Roadster (with optional rocket boosters)

yet - so if there's a van it will probably be in the distant future. But most likely there will be a dual motor option - e.g. 4wd.

 

[audreyh1]

I am kind of interested in an electric van if it is 4wd, but I have not seen that yet. Any idea if that will be on the horizon?

The Teslas S and X are 4wd as they are (at least) dual motor and have a motor for each axle.

 

[Bamaman]

I just hate to think about Grandma buying a Tessla 3 with the Performance Pack and how dangerous she'd be in a vehicle with that much power.

There are few people capable of handling such fast accelerating motorcars.

I wish they spent more engineering resources on improving battery efficiency and less on sheer speed.

I think I'll just stick with my 600 mile range Toyota Hybrids--where I don't have to drive 90 miles to get service.

 

[audreyh1]

I’m old enough to be a Grandma and I’m not worried about driving a powerful vehicle. Test drive was straightforward. Easy to control the acceleration.

Insurance shows that young people driving powerful vehicles are far more dangerous.

And what about Grandpa driving that 20 ton diesel pusher?

 

[Midpack]

I just hate to think about Grandma buying a Tessla 3 with the Performance Pack and how dangerous she'd be in a vehicle with that much power.

There are few people capable of handling such fast accelerating motorcars.

I wish they spent more engineering resources on improving battery efficiency and less on sheer speed.

I think I'll just stick with my 600 mile range Toyota Hybrids--where I don't have to drive 90 miles to get service.

If Grandma wants to drive too fast, there are any number of cars she could buy to get in trouble with "that much power." If Grandma opts for the optional Performance Pack, that tells you something. Not unique to Tesla or any other brand?

 

[Starsky]

I predict that within 10 years it's likely Tesla will be sold to one of the big automakers. They are an innovation company that has become exceedingly bad at managing their innovation process and their customer relations. Maybe Elon stepping down as CEO will help them to stop over-promising and under-delivering.
Elon should re-focus the company on the luxury electric car market and his 'Apocalypse technology'. It suits his personality and his business model much better - and sadly there's a huge market for it too. Trying to make innovative mass-market products is highly inconsistent with his impulsive and authoritarian nature.