Watching the trainwreck

On the work front, our DD, was not the best of students. After about 2.5 years of college straight, no summer breaks, she decided it was not for her. She did not have the cash to move out, and we let her stay at home. She got a job at a department store. After about 8 months, she announced she was going back to school. She said she looked around at the 45 to 50 year old women working with her, and did not want to end up like that. She is now a very successful 7th grade teacher. Both of our kids had a 'come to jesus moment' and both are doing well now. It takes longer for some.

Not having any kids I won't offer advice, thinking the situation is probably more complicated than could be described in a book.

But a strong incentive for me was working in a gas station in high school (back when they had HS kids to check the oil, clean the window, pump the gas) and seeing the 50-year-old guy I worked with. At that time I didn't know what I wanted to do with the rest of my life, but I sure as hell knew I didn't want to be him!

Another, more immediate, incentive was that while my parents did give me an allowance, it was ~$1.25 a week in 1967. I was told "If you want more than that you'll have to earn it yourself." So I did.
 
One word. Military.

That will get his sorry butt in shape and also get him on track education wise.

+1

I cannot stress it enough to make sure the title to the car is in his name only. Then it's his problem if he drops insurance or has an at-fault accident and is un/underinsured.

I don't budge on house rules. My house. My rules. You haven't asked anything of your son that the rest of us ask of our children.

For some reason I get the "into drugs" vibe because it sounded like he was doing OK when in high school and at home. Then things started going downhill at college. Either he wasn't ready for college or he got into something that's not in his best interest. Maybe the room and board money you were going to give him would be better spent on counseling.

All of us can only commensurate with you. You and your spouse are the only ones who can come up with a solution(s) you can live with. It's family meeting time.

Good luck.
 
My little brother ended up hating high school so he arranged to be able to graduate a year early. He spent what would have been his senior year working at the JC Penney's Catalog desk in the local strip mall, with coworkers in their 40s and 50s stuck in the dead end job. By the end of a year of that, he was REALLY convinced he wanted to go to college. I don't know if my parents charged him rent during that year, but certainly the experience of seeing what life was like for people stuck doing a low-skill no-future job made a large impression on him regardless.
 
Our oldest son is just a freshman in college and so far so good but who knows how it will go from here. I don't think we'll have any problems with him because he seems pretty motivated but you never know.

Mainly I just ran across this and thought this was a good place to post it.

The British have a term for late teen/early 20 something kids staying at home: Kippers - Kids in parents' pockets eroding retirement savings

Beware the kippers!
 
It is rare to make it through the teenage (and early 20s) without going through a trainwreck. I guess being able to see it coming is better than being blindsided by it

(I'm not too far removed from that age range and like to think I went through without any major mess ups. I would bet my parents think differently)
 
For some reason I get the "into drugs" vibe because it sounded like he was doing OK when in high school and at home. Then things started going downhill at college. Either he wasn't ready for college or he got into something that's not in his best interest. Maybe the room and board money you were going to give him would be better spent on counseling.

No, his behavior now is consistent with his past behavior. I don't see any signs of drugs or drinking (not to say it couldn't happen in future). He has had a ton of counseling.

He has had lots of issues and at times I've been in total despair. When he was a freshman in high school he failed 4 courses despite being told this would happen and despite tutoring. It wasn't that they were difficult....he just didn't do his work. Then the next 2 years he did well, made good grades. In his senior year he realized that he would graduate even if he didn't pass pre-calc so he did little to no work and failed the course.

Or, after he got his job and was earning money. He had a debit card and at the time the Bank put everyone on this automatic covering of debits even if there was no money. So the first time he overdrew the account and to pay a $35 fee I was calm and explained to him how it worked. He insisted he had called the banks automated line and it had said he had $X in the account and he spent less than that. I explained to him that the automated line didn't always have ever expenditure instantaneously after he met. He insisted that the bank should have it. I told that nonetheless he couldn't just rely on calling in. I suggested he keep a check register.

The next time it happened I asked him how. Same thing. He called the automated line so it ought to be right. Sigh. Of course, he refused to keep a check register.

It took several hundred dollars in overdraft fees before he finally learned that lesson.

It is very hard to explain but you can't reason with him at times. Or, rather, logic seems to have no bearing on what he does. I remember when he was failing English and insisting he was going to make a B. I asked him just how that could happen if he wasn't turning in work, wasn't studying, etc. He would get angry with me and insist he would make a B even when it was mathematically impossible for that to occur based upon past grades.

So the current behavior was actually, well, expected by DH and I. We hoped for the best and hoped we would be wrong but we really expected that he just wouldn't be willing to do the level of work he needed to do to stay in college. If he had made all good grades with the level of work he put in..I think he would have gone back. In the one course he was interested in, he actually made an A. But in courses he finds boring, he just isn't willing to put in the level of work necessary to make a decent grade.
 
I don't get it. What I mean is, what I would have given to have had parents like you. Not that my parents didn't love or care for me -- they did. They just didn't have the financial means to do what you have done.

I just passed the half century mark. Been on my own since I was 17.

IMO, you're only enabling him. Give him the boot. It will be a life changing event.

zed
 
Kats,

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I read your opening post and felt I needed to respond. I feel your pain and I have walked in your shoes at least a few miles. I won't go into all the details of what we have gone through with my son, but I have spent more than one night sick with worry over him.



He flunked out of college as a junior - being an A/B student until that time. He came home, got a decent job with good benefits, quit said job because he hated it (yeah....and I love mine....:confused:), moved out twice, failed miserably, and moved back in twice (Yes, that means he is living at home right now). When he flunked out of school and came home, we set some rules that we have held fast to. The key non-negotiable ones include:
  • He will have health insurance, because should he ever become sick, I don't want my ER going to paying for his medical care because he had no health insurance...and I know it would. We are very fortunate, because he has never fought us on this, even though he has to go in the State High Risk Pool.
  • We will not give him money or pay any debt he incurs. If he is living with us and has debt - he will be paying it off until it is gone. Heaven knows he had debt when he came back the last time. At that point, he finally realized he was not someone who should be allowed to have a credit card and threw his away. I put him on a strict budget and and checked him weekly - to ensure he had put aside enough money for his bills and debt payments before spending money. No excuses. This was not up for discussion.
  • He is either in school and working part-time or working full-time. If he is in school, he doesnt have to pay rent (we live close enough to State U, where he transfered, so he can commute). He was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression shortly after he flunked out his junior year. Although we refused to let him use that as an excuse for lying to us about his classes, we did realize it was likely a contributing factor to his struggles. And because he did agree to see a therapist for a period of time (who helped him immensely), we made an agreement with him about school. When/If he was ready to go back to school, he would have to pay for his first class. Then for every class he passed, we would reimburse him by paying for the next one. No pass....no payment for next class.
Fast forward 6 years. He is now almost 27 and will (*fingers crossed*) graduate this summer. He is working at a decent place and takes as many hours as they can give him. He goes in whenever they call, so gets 25-30 hours a week. He has no debt. He has saved a couple thousand in the bank - not a lot - but it is a lot more than he had a year ago.

He has come a long way from where he was at 21. Has it been hard? Yes. When he flunked one of his classes because he didn't go, he said "maybe I can borrow the money from you for next semester". The hardest thing I ever did was to say "No, you are not a good credit risk. You figure out another way to get the money. We only pay when you pass." He figured it out - and he hasnt flunked another class. I could tell you 100 other "poor decisions" he has made that ripped my heart out when he did. It is still hard at times. I don't claim to understand some of his decisions.

But, we are very close and he has, on more than one occasion, acknowledged how lucky he has been. He also admitted he is a little afraid of graduating - and I know that is because it will mean he has no excuses and needs to think about going off on his own again - something he has failed twice at before.

My advice to you is to set some hard and fast rules and stick to them. Giving him money will not help him - it will only make you feel "hopeful" for a little while longer (trust me on that one). The sooner he struggles and/or fails - the sooner you can be there to help him.

We always told both our kids that they would never go cold or hungry. Right or wrong (and I know many people have their opinions on this) - they can always come home. But if they do, they will work, pay rent (if not in school), have health insurance, and not carry any debt. And don't ask us for money. Oh, and no, your girlfriend cannot spend the night. Why not? Because I said so.


Good Luck - but believe that there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. You want to have a good enough relationship with him so that when he finally realizes what you were trying to teach him all this time - he will be willing to come back to you to learn it. But "keeping a good relationship with him" doesnt mean doing what he wants and giving him money. It means explaining your rules to him and then letting him make his own decisions and suffer the consequences - without arguing, criticizing, and fighting with him....or bailing him out.

Yes, I know, it is easier said than done. :(
 
Thanks, KM for the been there, done that.... It is great to read of a successful outcome (and yours does fit that bill).

When DS came home in December and I told him about his grades I asked him to really think about what he wanted to do. He floated by me the idea of living at home this semester while working and saving money and then going back to school in the fall. Internally, I was worried about it because I didn't feel he would follow the rules but I felt that we would need to give him that opportunity and then deal with it if (when) he didn't.

DS is his own worst enemy because within a week he made it clear he couldn't even abide by our over Christmas break rules and said he would rather live in his car....

So, I sort of think he had his chance on that and now he gets to make his own way. I'm not angry with him. He will be welcome to come over for dinner and such. But I can't see him ever living with us.
 
Oh, I certainly agree it is not an excuse but I do think it bears upon the issue. He has a lot of conflicts based upon this issue. He has worked on this with a therapist and in many ways I do think he has made progress. But, yes, there is just the possibility that this is just his nature and it would have been his nature no matter what. Some people have to learn the hard way, but it is sure painful to watch....

OK - reading responses, and I suspect I will react to many of them :D

My son told me one day about 3 years ago that he knew some of his decisions were bad and he didn't know why he would make them - despite how many times I told him not to do it. He said and I quote "there are just some things I have to do and get burned by. I don't know why - I just do. You telling me to do something or not do something is not going to change anything. I have to learn some things the hard way."

That was the day I realized and accepted I was not responsible for all of his bad decisions. But yeah, it is real painful to watch.
 
Another childless person weighing in with non-advice. :)

Every time, I meet a good kid (I recently met Nord's terrific daughter) or see how well my niece is doing raising her kids and think gosh I screwed up by not having kids, then I hear stories like Katsmeow that convince me that this parenting business is hard work and the results are unpredictable. Frankly I think it is easier to predict the direction of the stock market in the next decade than figure out which 10 year old will be a joy and which one will be a nightmare as 20 year old.

FWIW, I do think it is admirable that you and DH established rules and are enforcing them in timely fashion. It seems me that many parents give uncooperative boomerang kids several years before ultimately throwing them out.
 
OK - reading responses, and I suspect I will react to many of them :D

My son told me one day about 3 years ago that he knew some of his decisions were bad and he didn't know why he would make them - despite how many times I told him not to do it. He said and I quote "there are just some things I have to do and get burned by. I don't know why - I just do. You telling me to do something or not do something is not going to change anything. I have to learn some things the hard way."

That was the day I realized and accepted I was not responsible for all of his bad decisions. But yeah, it is real painful to watch.

My dad told me when I was about 16 or 17, that his dad got much smarter when he was about 23 or 24. Sure enough my dad got much smarter when I turned that age. Not sure what cause parents IQs to increase dramatically when their children stop being teenagers and start to be adults. :confused::D I think it must be related to your sons honest revelation.
 
...........At one point he said, "how much are you really going to charge me anyway!" ha! When we told him, he was shocked (I think it was $500 - rent for an apt around here would be at least $700, let alone utilities etc).


LOL - and people told me I was tough because I charged DS $400 a month during one of his "at-home" stints when he was not in school. Maybe it was because I also added on an additional $200/month reality fee (which we put in a separate account and gave back to him when he moved out). We just wanted him to prove he could afford to live on his own before he did. Of course, when he quit his job it made it a little more difficult for him to afford it....

I forgot to mention DS's "professional poker player" ambition. When he dropped out of school, his plan was to support himself playing poker. Yes, his father and I were so proud.....

The thing is, he was good enough, but he soon found out grinding 16 tables online for 6-8 hours a day was nowhere near as much fun as he thought it would be....
 
“My son told me one day about 3 years ago that he knew some of his decisions were bad and he didn't know why he would make them - despite how many times I told him not to do it. He said and I quote "there are just some things I have to do and get burned by. I don't know why - I just do. ..”

Until I retired last September I was a law officer for the past 41 years. The mind set displayed by that young man, his making bad decisions even in the light of sound information that there might be negative consequences to his actions, has been my bread and butter for most of those forty plus years I served as a police officer. And, although I’ve witnessed such inexplicable actions countless times by so many of the people I came into contact with, I never could understand the underlying thought processes that permitted these bad decisions to be repeatedly taken.

Just one very small example. When working in narcotics enforcement in the NYPD, we’d send out an undercover officer for street “buy and bust” operations. The officer, acting like a local drug purchaser, would attempt to buy narcotics from a street dealer. Very often the dealer would make some comment to the undercover such as, “I think you’re a cop!” then sell them the illicit drugs anyway. I think it fair to state that fully 90% of the dealers then arrested would tell the arresting officers “I knew that guy was a cop” in a tone of voice indicating how "street smart" they were. When asked why he then sold to the undercover officer there would be no answer.

Go figure.

Rich
 
............He had a debit card and at the time the Bank put everyone on this automatic covering of debits even if there was no money. So the first time he overdrew the account and to pay a $35 fee I was calm and explained to him how it worked. He insisted he had called the banks automated line and it had said he had $X in the account and he spent less than that. I explained to him that the automated line didn't always have ever expenditure instantaneously after he met. He insisted that the bank should have it. I told that nonetheless he couldn't just rely on calling in. I suggested he keep a check register.

The next time it happened I asked him how. Same thing. He called the automated line so it ought to be right. Sigh. Of course, he refused to keep a check register.

It took several hundred dollars in overdraft fees before he finally learned that lesson.

I think your son and my son went to the same school of logic......

True story - my son went into a store. Cute girl told him he could get a 50% discount if he opened a credit card. So he bought a $5 hat with the new credit card...paying only $2.50. Except he didn't pay the credit card bill when it came in.

So the $2.50 hat cost him close to $50+- dollars.

My response - "Seriously, honey, I love you, but are you really that stupid?"
 
Thanks, KM for the been there, done that.... It is great to read of a successful outcome (and yours does fit that bill).

When DS came home in December and I told him about his grades I asked him to really think about what he wanted to do. He floated by me the idea of living at home this semester while working and saving money and then going back to school in the fall. Internally, I was worried about it because I didn't feel he would follow the rules but I felt that we would need to give him that opportunity and then deal with it if (when) he didn't.

DS is his own worst enemy because within a week he made it clear he couldn't even abide by our over Christmas break rules and said he would rather live in his car....

So, I sort of think he had his chance on that and now he gets to make his own way. I'm not angry with him. He will be welcome to come over for dinner and such. But I can't see him ever living with us.

I wouldn't call my son a success story yet - but I am far more hopeful than I was even 1 year ago.

As I caught up on the thread, it sounds like you have a plan that you both feel you can live with and that is key. Although there is lots of good advice here - the bottom line is you know your son better than any of us and probably know what will work best for him. Many people told us we should "throw our son out" when he dropped out of school. But I knew there was more going on than pure laziness and throwing him out was not the answer.

No two kids are the same and you can raise two kids the exact same way and one will go left and one go right. You can raise two kids differently and they will both go right. Some nature - some nuture. In any case - it sure isn't easy when you get a challenging one.....
 
LOL - and people told me I was tough because I charged DS $400 a month during one of his "at-home" stints when he was not in school. Maybe it was because I also added on an additional $200/month reality fee (which we put in a separate account and gave back to him when he moved out). QUOTE]

We were aiming for an amount that would get him closer to reality...but alas, he changed his mind and decided school was a good idea! I think the best dose of reality was the job paying $400 net/month and he is working hard.

Bet we could have a whole thread about tickets and late fees with these kids too - many parents or the boys themselves have told me about how they recently racked up thousands in those - boggles my mind! But then my dad said, well you had quite a few when you were in college...:angel: maybe it's a brain defect when you're on your parents dime. Luckily our kid had his own money to pay his ( racked up over $1000 in a couple months) and even recently found him sleeping in on street sweeping day!
 
There are just times when you have to close the wallet and let them learn the hard way. There was a common theme here about closing the wallet and watching them leave. He will be fine! A few weeks of crashing at a buddy's house will get old (probably for the buddy)...love him, feed him on weekends and holidays, but do not continue to enable his mooching and lazy behaviors. Some lessons need to be learned the hard way. He'll respect you when he becomes self sufficient!
 
Another childless poster here but, after reading this thread, just wanted to thank my parents (who passed away more than 30 years ago) for teaching me the value of work and independence.
 
What is this "paid back" of which you speak?
Reminds me of DD. She was in town and going out with friends. I hear "I left my bank card at home, can I borrow $20?". My response was "borrow, as in pay back". Her's was "can I have $20?".
 
First.. this is going to sound like I am attacking these parents... but I am really not trying to do it... so, disclaimer...

I am really surprised on how many parents here allowed their kids to live at home even when they were adults... IMO, the BEST thing that a parent can do is kick the kids out... as long as you keep letting them back in when they have a small stumble they do not take responsibility for their actions... if they get in debt... let them pay their way out... here is a suggestion... get roommates... live in a low class/low cost area... if this does not motivate them to try and do better nothing will...

As long as they have a bed and food... you have taken away a few of basic needs that an adult needs to provide... heck, I even know of one guy who just needed this and has lived at home for the past 25 years... (he is early 50s)....

Now, I am not saying that if someone is going to college, making good grades.. and actually on a course to graduate (not a 10 year plan)... great.. let them do what they need to do... but once they stop progressing... stop the benefits....

As to the OP... I bet you that if your son started to live in his car... his attitude would change.... and what if it did not... well, then NOTHING you can do would motivate him either... better to learn it before wasting a lot of money on a lost cause...
 
She was doing well but would drop classes at a whim and was extending her time in college. One summer she talked him into paying for summer school and he found out she dropped her class and went to Mexico on vacation instead. When she came back he told her she could pay for her 5th year of college herself. He signed over the car title to the car she was driving to her and said insurance and everything was her problem.
Wow, keep 'em coming everybody. I'm taking notes on avoiding the pitfalls.

I did all that bad stuff in HS, so that's why I'm trying to shield him from it, but he is going to encounter all the drugs and drinking sooner or later so I guess I just need to tell him to get ready for it.
I took the opposite tack with our kid-- telling her all my sex/drugs/rock&roll stories in [-]explicit[/-] age-appropriate detail. I also explained that [-]we're cheap drunks[/-] her genome and gender do not metabolize alcohol very well, putting her at extreme risk during most social situations. I think she's decided that she's rebelling against what she views as her parents' wasted lifestyles. But we'll need another 10 years or so to be sure.

Every time, I meet a good kid (I recently met Nord's terrific daughter)
She so totally pulled the wool over your eyes!

They're the same size & shape as adults. Surely they should be expected to think & behave as adults...
 
This is more of a general observation. As someone grows older, you have to treat them increasingly less like children and become increasingly less their parent and relate to them more on an adult level. This essentially means that you're handing over more and more responsibility.

I'm using the terms parent, child, adult in this sense:
Transactional analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem, again very general, is that some never grow up. I've seen examples of people at 15 being more responsible with their money than people at 60. Now, can you act as a parent to someone who's 60? How about 40? How about 20? Acting like a child in some matters knows no age---maturity is only loosely correlated with chronological age. I don't think it's ever a good idea to play the role of the responsible parent though---you'll only end up doing it again and again.

For this reason, I'd personally stop the hand-outs.

That said ... and I don't know how to bring this point across for this very specific case, but there are three major pitfalls to avoid in a situation where there's no forward direction/demonstrated responsibility.
1) Don't get into debt (credit cards).
2) Don't get married/anyone pregnant.
3) Don't get arrested.
If this can be avoided, the starting line will stay at zero in the worst case. Any of these three will move it back.
 
............
The problem, again very general, is that some never grow up. ...........

Not to scare the OP, but to reinforce the idea that immaturity can be an ongoing problem, not just a temporary crisis, I throw out these family observations.

My nephew is 41 and just came home again, jobless and with no teeth. His mother has remarried and is retired, living a good life. She has arranged for him to live in a homeless shelter and I know that every time the phone rings she jumps, expecting the worst.

SIL is 52 and still depends on leaching off family to make her budget. MIL is 82 and still works part time so she can give money to SIL. When SIL feels resistance to contributions she makes grim references to suicide or puts herself in an emergency situation - "I'm being evicted tomorrow unless I come up with $1000".

I wish I had a good suggestion. :nonono:
 
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