The Eagles - Lip Syncing? Milli Vanilli redux?

[ERD50]

I follow this youtuber ("Fil from Wings of Pegasus"), he does some really excellent analysis of musician's performances, brings out details I wouldn't notice w/o guidance. In the past year or so, he's been focused on the use of auto-tune and pitch correction, and it's been getting stale for me. But I saw this, and wow!

A viewer sent him concert video taken by fans of two or three different recent Eagle's concerts of their hit "Deperado" (which really features the vocalist), and when synced, the two audio tracks are exact duplicates. The different crowd noises in each seem to confirm they are different concerts. Before he used his pitch monitor software on the tracks, he panned one to Left and one to Right. With headphones on, it's clear that this is not two separate performances, no one can sing that in sync (or would want to - that's what makes a 'live' performance). There's always little variations.

But the software leaves no doubt. Little nuances line up as perfectly as you can get, considering there is some crowd noise causing some gaps and area were the SW can't quite follow. But it really can't be two performances.

The only "out there" theory I have is someone dubbed audio onto two different videos, but the crowd noise differences would make that really difficult (I suppose that could be dubbed in), but why would someone go to that trouble.

I really like many of the Eagles songs, I wouldn't pay those big bucks to see them (I avoid big concerts anyhow), but if I did, I'd be PO'd to find they were faking it.

A lot of comments on-line that The Eagles sound "too good" for their age. They show Walsh skipping the high notes when he plays solo, but seems to make them sound really good when he's with the Eagles.

I suppose the Eagles could claim they use that in his ear monitor as a guide, and they 'mistakenly' mixed it to the PA? Sure.

What do you think? This guy is not into hyperbole, so that title means something!

-ERD50 (sorry Eagles fans)

 

[razztazz]

Thanks for posting this. I used to watch this guy a lot but sort of drifted away for some reason.

I think it comes down to what you mentioned. The Eagles sound too good for their age. Ergo for their age they sound like old guys. Probably lots of "wobble" in the mid range and strained or totally unable in the high range. So, bring out the technology to clean it up and smooth it out. They might not have the vocal stamina to basically sing each concert beforehand, run it thru "the machine" then "go live" with it, so they just re-use the best take for a while. Maybe they update it with new performances every so many weeks or number of shows so not too many people will catch on. Wings of Pegasus has a good ear and caught on.

 

[Luvdogs]

That is really interesting that you brought this up. I'm not any type of musician, etc so I don't know-- but I'm a big concert fan.

I saw The Eagles in 2018 and commented afterward that they were still really good, sounded like their records, etc. It was at a giant stadium with Jimmy Buffet. I again saw them last month (exactly a month ago today actually!) and commented the same; I was more like, "why can't all the other old groups sound as good." Well maybe now I know.

And funny, I compared them to the concert I saw the night before The Eagles last month that I couldn't even tell what the songs were (I'm looking at YOU, Bob Dylan).

So which is better/worse? At least the Eagles were very entertaining, even if they did "Milli Vanilli" it. I couldn't even understand what Dylan was trying to sing. He should have retired 40 years ago.

Or maybe The Eagles just have really good audio people on their shows. The videos/backdrops were great and the whole show is very professionally done.

 

[ERD50]

.... So which is better/worse? At least the Eagles were very entertaining, even if they did "Milli Vanilli" it. I couldn't even understand what Dylan was trying to sing. He should have retired 40 years ago. ...

Neither/either/both - but whatever they do, they should be honest/transparent about it.

There were some comments that Mick Jagger brings in a singer to duet with him on the challenging vocals, and that singer can fill in the notes that ol' Mick can't make - well, that's transparent, and fans can accept it or not (I wouldn't have a problem with it, it's facing reality, and can still be entertaining).

For me personally, a great concert is one where the artist plays enough familiar stuff, but mixes it up somewhat. If they duplicate the record, I can stay home and listen to the record. By 'mix it up', I just mean something unique, maybe different instrumentation, and added solo - some variation without making the song completely foreign (though doing that for one song of the concert could be interesting). I suspect that many of the people attending the big concerts want it to sound 'just like the record', well, to each their own. But that's unrealistic to expect all these old rockers to hit high notes in the way they did 50 years ago, and if they can, it should leave everyone amazed, rather than wondering if it was a trick.

I saw Bonnie Koloc a few years ago, she never made it big nationally, but she was big in the Chicago folk scene of the 70's-80's. Wonderful, pure voice, with so much control. I was a little afraid to see her in her 70's, was willing to accept some significant degradation in her voice, but she was wonderful. I could barely believe she had so much ability, really, as good as I recall, and I have three of her records. And this was small venue and we were too close for there to be any trickery, no way. So that can be appreciated for what it is.

Yeah, I recall hearing some concert recordings of Dylan post Blood on the Tracks - some of those songs were just different to be different, like he was bored, so let's do it different - not better. Some was painful. I'll just remember him for all the classics he did give us, really unbelievable what he accomplished. Hey, even a glass 1/64th full is great, if the 1/64th is amazing!

-ERD50

 

[FiveDriver]

Well, I'm going to give the Eagles the benefit of doubt on this. Henley's been singing this song since 1973. It's in his natural key of G major. He knows where he needs to breathe and where to belt it out.

The Eagles warm up before every show with an a cappella version of "Seven Bridges Road" and from there it's off to the rodea !!. This Band prides itself on their Harmonies.

https://vimeo.com/257322872

 

[tmm99]

I can kind of say the same thing about the Beach Boys. It wasn't even recent, it was decades ago and they didn't sound all that great. I'd rather they used autotune or something if not lipsynching.

Kind of sad if the Eagles were all lipsynching though. I watched a couple of clips of Don Henley from 2015 (Howard Stern) and those sounded totally genuine (small studio set up with close-up cameras) although he didn't go out of tune even once. The below is him just last month with Trisha Yearwood. I'm not into country, so this is the first I've ever heard Trisha Y sing live. IMO, she goes off a lot (goes out of tune). Don Henley is supporting her, harmonizing, so no solo parts, but he sings loud at the end. From what I can hear, he's still a good singer, and is more in tune than Trisha Y.

Someone tell me, it he lipsynching here? This is Desparado on Howard Stern from 2015, so it's a bit older, but you can see his mouth closely, and you can hear him breathe, etc. He sounds just incredible. A lot can happen in a few years however...

 

[CardsFan]

Neither/either/both - but whatever they do, they should be honest/transparent about it.

For me personally, a great concert is one where the artist plays enough familiar stuff, but mixes it up somewhat. I

-ERD50

I mentioned this in another thread a while back.

Several years ago DW "won" free tickets to see Rod Stewart and Santana.

Carlos did exactly as you described. He was THE guitar, his daughter (I think) did a lot of the vocals. The group and family made a great concert. He did not push beyond what he could do, but he did what what he did best.

Rod Stewart was terrible, and even apologized.

I will wait to comment on The Eagles until I have had the time to watch the video, but I hope you are wrong

 

[RunningBum]

If this is true, at least they are lip syncing their own (past) voices. Milli Vanilli never sang their songs.

 

[tmm99]

Just to add, Don Henley seems to sing Desperado the same way every time. Not the same as the original recording, but he doesn't seem to deviate at all from one live performance to the next including Howard Stern's close-up performance.

I heard that some artists change things up here and there at different times on purpose just so it doesn't look like they are lipsynching.

 

[tmm99]

If this is true, at least they are lip syncing their own (past) voices. Milli Vanilli never sang their songs.

Yeah, I watched the documentary on how that went down. Pretty amazing that that whole deception was not uncovered for so long. I guess we believe in what we want to believe in.

 

[ERD50]

Just to clarify these comments:

Just to add, Don Henley seems to sing Desperado the same way every time.

Well, I'm going to give the Eagles the benefit of doubt on this. Henley's been singing this song since 1973. It's in his natural key of G major. He knows where he needs to breathe and where to belt it out.

Someone tell me, it he lipsynching here? This is Desparado on Howard Stern from 2015, so it's a bit older, but you can see his mouth closely, and you can hear him breathe, etc. He sounds just incredible. A lot can happen in a few years however...

This isn't about "he can make it sound the same each time he sings it". A performance can "sound the same" to you and me, but this software is putting it under a microscope, and sees what we can't see/hear. There just is no way for a human to make their voice replicate to that degree. Even w/o the high tech, the right-left ear for each track would show differences between two performances, there are always slight delays, slight differences. Even when a performer wants it to 'sound the same', they don't go for that level of microscopic perfection, there just is no need.

And looking at a video for lip-sync is not the same either, you are trying to make an eye-ear connection at 30 fps, that software is looking millisecond to millisecond of two vocals.

-ERD50

 

[DrRoy]

I love the Eagles and have seen them 3 times. I won't go back though. Not because of this, but because they're just not right without Glen.

 

[frayne]

Eagles lip syncing, say it ain't so!

 

[Dtail]

Saw the Eagles perhaps around 6 years ago. They sang all their hits, while mainly sitting on stools. They sounded great and that is good enough for me.

 

[tmm99]

I love the Eagles and have seen them 3 times. I won't go back though. Not because of this, but because they're just not right without Glen.

Yeah, one big, important piece missing for sure.

 

[Spock]

I bought one of the Eagles DVDs that mixed in a little documentary that included the Don Felder expulsion. It wasn't 3rd party it was a straight Eagles release... it's packed away in a moving box somewhere or I'd point to the title.
It was surprising that their own DVD laid it bare that the Eagles are not a band. Henley and Frey directly stated they are (were) the Eagles full stop. Everybody else is a contractually hired hand including Walsh and Schmit.

 

[sengsational]

If there's a night where Don's got a scratchy voice and plays a recording, so what? Being in a huge venue, nobody is close enough to notice, and they hear what they came to hear. But then again, I don't pay the big bucks to go to a huge concert venue.



As much fun as it is to say "I saw (some famous person / band) in concert", I've realized it's really not that great of an experience in a huge venue. If you're far enough away that you're watching the screen behind the performers, then you're watching a video and listening to some pretty low quality sound (given it's blasted across a big venue with questionable acoustics and overlaid with all of the non-music ambient noise).


I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather see an Eagles cover band, sit far enough not to get spit on, and be able to buy the band members an interesting beer and chat with them at the bar between sets. Way more fun than to struggle into an arena, buy a $16 bud light, and get stuck in traffic for and hour and half after the show.

 

[Sunset]

I find it really funny when lip-synching singers trip and fall, or fall off the stage, and the music/singing continues without a skip

It would be pretty sweet to have a job where you can turn in yesterday's work each day and get well paid for it.

 

[CardsFan]

I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather see an Eagles cover band, sit far enough not to get spit on, and be able to buy the band members an interesting beer and chat with them at the bar between sets. Way more fun than to struggle into an arena, buy a $16 bud light, and get stuck in traffic for and hour and half after the show.

You just described our annual CSNY tribute concert. The band (Four and Twenty) is a combination of 2-3 local bands that play together once a year for this concert. Several have played with later incarnations of the Byrds. It is in a local arena, about 3 miles from our house. We always get comp tickets from friends. $10 to park. $10 for a beer. And we know a few of them well enough to shoot the Sh!t before and after.

WAY better and cheaper than going to some of the OLD band concerts.

 

[ERD50]

Here's Fil's follow-up video, where he (even more) directly addresses the comments that Don Henley was just very good at singing this the same each performance.

So, just as I stated, there's a mile-wide chasm between singing it to "sound the same" to our ears, and standing up to millisecond-by-millisecond microscopic scrutiny. It just isn't possible to replicate a performance in that detail.

-ERD50

 

[Dawg52]

You have to wonder how much of this is going on with other artists. Some have been using background singers(Rolling Stones, Toto etc) to help an aging singer get through parts and that's ok with me. They are basically being upfront with it. But I wouldn't want to pay to see people lip syncing. This is not going to make me dislike the Eagles but kind of disappointing to hear they have done this.

 

[Mansderm]

I think Fil does a great job analyzing music and vocalists. I learn something Everytime I watch one of his videos.

 

[Murph]

He’s been singing this song exactly the same way for 30 years. He should be, and is, good at it.

The Eagles prided themselves on replicating the studio versions as much as possible in concert.

 

[ERD50]

He’s been singing this song exactly the same way for 30 years. He should be, and is, good at it.

The Eagles prided themselves on replicating the studio versions as much as possible in concert.

Sorry, no. You haven't followed the conversation.

No one can sing a song exactly the same, and being months apart, just makes the point even further (not that it had to be made, enough is enough).

As I said earlier, and Fil explains - he is looking at the vocal "under a microscope". It simply isn't physically possible to duplicate the timing and vibrato of phrase after phrase to that degree of accuracy. A performance that might "sound the same" to you and me, is not "exactly" the same - no way.

In this case, they replicated a studio sound, because this vocal was recorded in a studio, and used in place of live vocals in at least two performances, w/o being upfront with the audience as to what they were getting.

There was a different kind of 'pride' involved here.

-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

I bought one of the Eagles DVDs that mixed in a little documentary that included the Don Felder expulsion. It wasn't 3rd party it was a straight Eagles release... it's packed away in a moving box somewhere or I'd point to the title.
It was surprising that their own DVD laid it bare that the Eagles are not a band. Henley and Frey directly stated they are (were) the Eagles full stop. Everybody else is a contractually hired hand including Walsh and Schmit.

They used to be a band with 5 equal members. Henley and Frey eventually took over either kicking people out or forcing them to quit.

The only current Eagle is Henley, everyone else is just a hired gun.