Who Are You Voting For?

I like most of you a lot better when you are not
spewing garbage.  I'm with John Galt and retire@40.

Charlie

One man's garbage is another man's Treasure!

No matter which side your on, I think you have to admit that the Average American Voter is Stupid!

When the Average person cannot recognize a picture of Dick Cheney or the Supreme Justice of the Supreme Court, but most recognize Monica Lewinsky or Judge Ito with no problem - You know the USA has a problem.

We are getting a Presidential campaign that is now pandering to these idiots. Both campaign's are now making statements that border on the ridiculous.

Americans get the government that they deserve, while they continue to blame the politicians. They need only look themselves in the mirror. :mad:
 
Worse than that...a national geographic survey showed that the majority of americans tested (those in their late teens) couldnt find the pacific ocean on a map.

I can see not knowing the capital of kansas, but you cant find the pacific ocean after graduating high school?

Voter misinformation is rampant, but we have ourselves to blame for that. Candidates can buy all the tv time they want and they've found that if you repeat the same information, true or not, often enough, people will accept it.

Did you know that by survey/poll roughly 62% of americans still believe that saddam hussein was behind the 9/11 bombings even though the 9/11 commission says there was no evidence of that, and even Bush/Cheney claim they never said there was?

There *is* that interview Cheney did where he said it was "Pretty well confirmed that Iraq and Hussein were involved in 9/11", but when questioned about that he swore he never said it. Unfortunately its on video tape. The video of him cutting off an interviewer who asked him about the quote where he says "I never said that", she looks at her notes and says "well yes, on xx/xx you told xyz that it was "pretty well confirmed..." and he cuts her off again saying firmly that he never said it...followed by the video of him saying it...was really the turning point for me wanting to support this administration.

The icing on the cake was the debate where the moderator was trying to put a question to Bush, who wanted to talk about something else. When the moderator insisted, Bush turned away from him and went about doing what he wanted to do. Incredibly, incredibly arrogant. You're at a moderated debate, you have agreed to follow the rules, then you do what you damn well feel like.

Changing stories, lying and arrogance. Not what I want in my leadership.
 
I moved to a different state between presidential elections, and being the procrastinator I am managed to just miss the registration deadline. I'm disappointed that this will be the first presidential election I've missed since age 18. Oh well, I don't think Indiana is contested, anyway.

I'm disturbed by the increasing polarization of conservatives and liberals since the end of Reagan's terms. Or maybe it's been like this all along and I'm noticing more as I get older.

Some Republican coworkers of mine insist there were WMD's found in Iraq. They also seem to think the entire middle east should be wiped out. I hope that's a minority opinion.
 
Oldest nephew stopped by last night(in for seminar/training at the local Naval Air Station). His from the Republican wing of the family. Me: I'm voting for Kerry, Nephew: I'm voting for Bush. 87 year old mom: I really liked: FDR.

End of discussion - back to watching the Yankees/Red Sox.

Potitic's is simple if your mind is made up. And it was a good ball game: My mother and nephew were for Boston.
 
I may llive to eat these words, but I think Kerry fans are like Red Sox fans they "believe" but they picked the wrong team.

BUM :-*

I am sitting here watching game 7 and Boston is up 6 to nothing. Yes it's only the second inning and there is the 'curse', but none the less it's looking pretty good for Boston, considering.

Bum, I would like to start preparing your Humble Pie. Would you like it stuffed with Crow? :D
 
In Memory of a friend of mine who passed much too early some years ago GO BOSTON. I'm a Tigers fan. Score now 8-1 top of 4th
 
Oldest nephew stopped by last night(in for seminar/training at the local Naval Air Station). His from the Republican wing of the family. Me: I'm voting for Kerry, Nephew: I'm voting for Bush. 87 year old mom: I really liked: FDR.

End of discussion - back to watching the Yankees/Red Sox.
Unclemick, when it comes to politics, the well has been poisoned. A toast to your Mom, and congratulations to your family for putting politics into proper perspective.
 
10-3 Boston, and even this sick-of-baseball-since-the-strike non-fan sat up and took notice.

After having self-identified as a liberal, it should come as no surprise that I'm in the anybody-but-Bush camp. Kerry is a politician, a point against him, but Bush puts us in greater danger daily as he ruins the budget, kills off our kid in Iraq, and alienates our allies.

Go Boston! Hey, they won!

Anne
 
You bastards! I'm watching the game time-delayed on tivo and am only in the 4th inning...decided this, of all places, was safe to snoop through a little while watching.

AIYEEEEEEEEEEE! The internet destroys all suspense... :(

As an aside, now that I'm over that...

The wedge driving is a Bush administration thing. One of the things that really displeases me about them. Everything is black or white. You're with us or against us.

We need to be uniting under common causes and directions, not being divided into conservatives and liberals, republicans and democrats, gay and heterosexual, reds and blues, etc.

Its disappointing.
 
None of your business. :D

Voter behavior studies show that most voters in the US treat their political choices much like they treat their religious choices. They take it on faith that God is good and Satan is bad. Similarly, they take it on faith that Republicans or Conservatives are good and that Democrats or Liberals are bad . . . or vice versa.

Faith based politics makes democratic responsibilities easy. My party is good so I know how to vote. Political discourse is easy. My party is good so my party's politicians are truthful. The opposition is bad so the politicians from the other party are lying when they say bad things about my party.

When faced with an example that apparently contradicts their beliefs, they face a crisis of faith. They may rationalize the bad behavior of a politician from their own party. They may actually blame the other party. They may choose not to believe the facts that seem incriminating. But it is unlikely that they will challenge their own basic faith . . . that my party is good. Therefore politicians in my party are good.

Interestingly, most voters recognize the political faith tendancy in others, but believe that they are different. Few really are. :D
 
The wedge driving is a Bush administration thing. One of the things that really displeases me about them. Everything is black or white. You're with us or against us.

Unfortunately, it goes much deeper. Rational discourse and analysis is routinely dismissed. And it's not only liberals that are dismayed. Ayn Rand must be rolling in her grave.

Ron Suskind's article is worth reading.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html

"Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a treasury official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.

''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has gone off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . .

''This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts,'' Bartlett went on to say. ''He truly believes he's on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.'' Bartlett paused, then said, ''But you can't run the world on faith.''
...This is one key feature of the faith-based presidency: open dialogue, based on facts, is not seen as something of inherent value. It may, in fact, create doubt, which undercuts faith. It could result in a loss of confidence in the decision-maker and, just as important, by the decision-maker. Nothing could be more vital, whether staying on message with the voters or the terrorists or a California congressman in a meeting about one of the world's most nagging problems. As Bush himself has said any number of times on the campaign trail, ''By remaining resolute and firm and strong, this world will be peaceful.''
 
My absentee vote went to Bush.
We have to give him a chance to finish what he started.
As far as Kerry is concerned, I'm a Vietnam veteran and Kerry is no hero. :mad:
 
For me it's still pretty basic. Consider the platforms of the parties the candidates represent, and decide which one makes the most sense to you.

Things like gun ownership, taxes, limited government, strong military and dealing with terror typically lean one way. Abortion/choice, social programs, environmental laws, wealth redistribution, etc. typically lean the other.

Find as many facts as you can. Go to the candidates sites. Go to factcheck.org. Most importantly, VOTE.
 
Kerry, Kerry, Kerry....


A conservative case for Kerry

Traditionally, conservatives believe in fiscal responsibility, small government and individual rights. But does Bush?

CLYDE PRESTOWITZ

Knight Ridder/Tribune


As a former Reagan administration official, registered Republican, born-again Christian and traditional conservative, I am going to vote for John Kerry. So are many other old line Republicans. Here's why.

While the Bush administration calls itself "conservative," its use of the term is frankly Orwellian. It not only deprives the word of meaning, but presents the administration's philosophy as the opposite of what it actually is.

Conservatives have always and everywhere believed in fiscal responsibility, in being sure you could pay your way and in providing for the future. Conservatives pay down debt rather than adding to it. This doesn't necessarily mean balancing the budget every year, but at a minimum it means striving toward balance as a top-priority objective.

The Bush approach is completely at odds with such thinking. If any proof were needed, it was amply provided in the president's acceptance speech at the Republican convention. With Congressional Budget Office projections by a very Republican former member of his own administration showing oceans of red ink for the indefinite future, President Bush promised more tax cuts. His audience cheered.

Conservatives are often well off, but they understand that the best way to preserve the society in which they are doing so well is to ensure that all its members can survive at a reasonable standard of living. It was the conservative Otto von Bismarck, after all, who first introduced social security programs in 19th-century Germany for just that reason.

Conservatives do not loot the Treasury or bet the future health of their society on the chance that the best-case scenario will actually materialize.

They provide for the worst case. So a conservative would have expected that the president's tax cuts and promises of more to come would at least have been accompanied by plans for cutting expenditures. That expectation would have been disappointed, however, as the president promised about $1 trillion of new spending programs that, given his tax cuts, can be paid for only with red ink.

see part 2...
 
Re: Who Are You Voting For?part 2...

Part 2...

Which brings us to a second fundamental principle of conservatism -- small government. From the founding of the Republic until now, conservatives have feared the threat to liberty posed by big government. Conservative icon Ronald Reagan came to power primarily by focusing on big government as the source of most of the country's problems. But the Bush administration has presided over a steady increase in the size of government. Federal expenditure has risen as a percent of GDP after declining in the late 1990s.

Conservatives have never been enthusiastic about foreign adventures or about messianic undertakings. John Adams made the point early in our history when he emphasized that "America does not go abroad to slay dragons." It was the liberal Democrats Woodrow Wilson and John Kennedy who committed the United States to making the world safe for democracy and to "bearing any burden and paying any price to assure the success of liberty."

These are fine sounding words, but they are not the words of conservatives. Thus, when Bush promises to democratize the Middle East, conservatives cringe. So much so, in fact, that several former high ranking officials of the Reagan and first Bush administrations have told me recently that they are not supporting the president for re-election.

This is because they know that, administration rhetoric to the contrary notwithstanding, we are not safer today than we were three years ago. Far from destroying al-Qaida and cutting its alleged (but actually non-existent) links with Saddam Hussein, we have made Iraq into a magnet for terrorists.

Worse, there is a real possibility that Osama bin Laden could gain control of our ally Pakistan, with its nuclear weapons and operational long range missiles. Safe? Not on your life.

Nor are we freer.

Conservatives are nothing if not steadfast defenders of individual rights, rule of law and due process. Yet the Patriot Act and the procedures at Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere have visibly infringed on all of these. It is ironic that even as it preaches about widening the circle of freedom abroad, the administration is reducing it at home.

Before the recent campaign, it might have been argued that at least in the area of affirming the importance of faith and respecting those who profess it, the administration had embraced traditional conservative views.

But in the wake of the Swift boat ads attacking John Kerry, even this argument can no longer be maintained. As an elder of the Presbyterian Church, it seemed to me that those ads were not at all in the Christian tradition. John McCain rightly condemned them as dishonest and dishonorable.

The president should have too. That he did not undermines his credibility on questions of faith. Some say it's just politics. But that's the whole point.

More is expected of people of faith than "just politics."

The fact is that the Bush administration might better be called radical or romantic or adventurist than conservative. And that's why real conservatives are leaning to Kerry.



Clyde Prestowitz was counselor to the secretary of commerce in the Reagan administration and author of "Rogue Nation: American Unilateralism and the Failure of Good Intentions." Write him at Economic Strategy Institute, 1401 H St. NW, Suite 560, Washington DC 20005, or presto@econstrat.org.
 
Okay, I know I said I was done with this topic.
Please cut me some slack. "Real conservatives are
leaning to Kerry":confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:?
Give me a break!
Bush is NOT a conservative, but any person
identified as a conservative (by anyone) who votes for Kerry is grossly miscast, as well as grossly misguided
at best. Listen folks. Kerry is the ultimate liberal.
Now, if you want that, vote for him.

John Galt
 
Dwights son John Eisenhower has changed his political affilliation from Republican, which he has held for 50 years, to independent and plans to vote for kerry.

His decision to vote for kerry is less telling than his reasons for not voting republican.

I cant imagine a more conservative guy than Dwights kid...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/093004U.shtml

By the way, the guy who wrote the above article is also a very longtime conservative who served in the reagan administration.
 
Well, there's nothing wrong with being the ultimate liberal. Sure beats being the ultimate conservative. Unfortunately, I can off the top of my head think of 7 more liberal senators.... Lautenberg, Corzine (from my home state) clinton, Schumer, Kennedy, Boxer, Feinstein, Feingold... I sure I'm missing another dozen or so more senators liberal than Kerry.
 
Bum, I would like to start preparing your Humble Pie. Would you like it stuffed with Crow?

You know C-T the 27th championship is always the hardest. If I was a Kerry flip flopper I'd be saying' "Hey, I'm a Red Sox guy."

Enough already! I too, like most of you all when were NOT discussing the election. Although it does bring out the passion. Nice to know there is still an abundance of that around here.

BUM ::)
 
Just watched farenheit 9-11. Not a Michael Moore fan but if 1% of that were true it would be scarey. Makes you think. Glad I don't have to decide who to vote for. The Canadian election recently past was bad enough.

Bruce
 
I wonder if any of these "conservatives for Kerry" would try to make the argument that Kerry's judicial appointments would be more conservative than Bush's? With no money to spend, that's where the real differences are in this election. Clinton to some extent governed as a "new democrat", but his appointments were strictly "old democrat"...
 
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