2 Yr Salary Freeze for Fed Employees

[jimnjana]

Then what functions should be discontinued?

I maintained computer programs that tracked USAF inventory.

Should that function be discontinued?

There's a very good chance that "maintain computer programs" function is already being done by contractors/outsourced today.

 

[jimnjana]

The big scam going on since Reagan is to replace federal employees with civilian contractors (usually former Mil & Civ & relatives) which actually costs more money and leaves less oversight.

You think there should be fewer federal employees? Great, let's work on it and see what services you want cut.
You think contracting out the functions to the buddies of congresscritters and laying on several layers of sub-contractors and profits and non-accountability is somehow an improvement?
Do you really want USAF inventory (my career) sub-sub-sub-contracted to someone in Beijing?

I think that the Federal government workforce could be cut by 10% and not a single function be eliminated. I don't think long-term contracting out of services is the answer, because you are quite correct about that. If the government agency is empowered to manage their personnel resources to accomplish their mission, they can accomplish it with much fewer personnel.

 

[ziggy29]

I don't think long-term contracting out of services is the answer, because you are quite correct about that.

What this leads to was similar to what I saw when I worked in aerospace. A lot of the guys (and they were all guys at the time) were retired military who worked another 15-20 years for the Megacorp before retiring from there (with two pensions and health insurance) and earning $60-75 an hour with the aerospace company as a contractor -- and billing the government for all of it and then some. And this was in the late 1980s into the 1990s.

It just feels like a scam even if it's totally legal.

 

[jimnjana]

What this leads to was similar to what I saw when I worked in aerospace. A lot of the guys (and they were all guys at the time) were retired military who worked another 15-20 years for the Megacorp before retiring from there (with two pensions and health insurance) and earning $60-75 an hour with the aerospace company as a contractor -- and billing the government for all of it and then some. And this was in the late 1980s into the 1990s.

It just feels like a scam even if it's totally legal.

Yes, many retired General/Flag Officers are now highly paid contractors. Post Office even finds it necessary to hire retired postal workers as consultants...give me a break.

 

[samclem]

We go back and forth on the "GS vs Contractor" pendulum about every 15 years. At some point people notice that there are a lot of contractors around ("these hogs are at the trough everywhere! They make about twice the hourly rate of GS folks, plus the overhead to their company!) and contractors are replaced by GS personnel. Then, someone does the math and figures out that a GS earning $75K per year costs the taxpayers more than a contractor earning $100K due to the unrealized pension costs, etc (which his agency also doesn't pay in the current year). So, there's a big push to convert functions to contractors. A few years later the cycle repeats.

The good news is that every time this happens, both ways, the leaders get to claim that they saved taxpayers a bunch of money.

One thing is for sure--there's a lot more flexibiilty with contractors. Just cut the money and they are gone--one worker or 500 workers. On an individual basis, if a guy isn't working out (or even working), then one word to the guy's company from the responsible government person is all it takes and he's gone. It's much harder to do that with the WG/GS/GG/SES/SIS workforce.

 

[haha]

Merry Christmas!

Yes, poor babies. Nothing but coal in their stockings this year.

 

[ERD50]

Merry Christmas!

Yes, poor babies. Nothing but coal in their stockings this year.

Yep, though they should be able to buy presents with the money they saved from raises the past couple years, while many private employees got no raise or got a cut.

Let them eat cake, indeed!

-ERD50

 

[zinger1457]

Then what functions should be discontinued?

I maintained computer programs that tracked USAF inventory.

Should that function be discontinued?

Can't speak for all agencies but where I worked in the Army I would guesstimate there is at least 20% dead weight in the workforce (both government and contractors). Getting rid of those workers would have little impact on getting the job done. I would imagine most supervisors would welcome the initial workforce cuts as long as they could hand pick those cuts (not likely to happen).

There are plenty of non-personnel cuts that need to be made. Every time a 'Change of Command' takes place we all dread the new 'pet' projects that will be started by the new commander trying to leave his/her mark during their 2 year visit. Usually resulting in previous 'pet' projects going unfinished and pushed to the side. Could go on and on about waste.

 

[Nords]

One thing is for sure--there's a lot more flexibiilty with contractors. Just cut the money and they are gone--one worker or 500 workers. On an individual basis, if a guy isn't working out (or even working), then one word to the guy's company from the responsible government person is all it takes and he's gone. It's much harder to do that with the WG/GS/GG/SES/SIS workforce.

I'm glad you chimed in with that-- I'd say "outsource 'em all".

The USAF inventory job might go to China, but if it did they'd probably subcontract it to Vietnam... who might find a good subcontractor in Pyongyang...

 

[Rustic23]

About 6 years ago, I ran a computer department for a county elected official. I had four programmers. I visited the office a month or so ago, and noticed that there were now 9 or 10 programmers doing the same job. We had one web specialist, they now have three. We had two database managers they not have four. I don't have a clue what the other two would do. Could this department be shrunk? My guess is yes, however, I'll bet no one in the department thinks this is possible.

 

[friar1610]

Originally Posted by brewer12345
So all of a sudden military personnel are not feddle gubmint employees? So whose employees are they? China's?

A long, long time ago I was in the military (upon invitation from Uncle Sam), and worked alongside those of the GS rating vs. my E"x" rating, at the time.

Their salary scale was much greater than mine, even though doing basically the same tasks.

The only time I was close to what their scale was when I was getting "shift differential" (e.g. combat pay) for a year in my SEA "vacation".

IMHO, the military deserves whatever they can get (regardless of assumed employer) as far as I'm concerned.

I'm well acquainted with the "who has a better deal - military or government civilians?" argument and don't want to get a long discussion going on that. But here's a point that some may not be aware of: government civilian employees are eligible for cash bonuses. Normally, an organization has some percentage of its total civpay set aside for performance bonuses. I can't recall the exact numbers, but it's something low like 2%. That money can then be used at the discretion of the organization's management to give end of year cash bonuses or one-time bonuses for specific accomplishments. When I was the CO of a Navy base, I could reward my civilian employees that way. For the sailors, I could only give them a letter of appreciation/commendation or put them in for a medal. Nice to get the latter recognition but not too useful paying bills.

 

[FinanceDude]

About 6 years ago, I ran a computer department for a county elected official. I had four programmers. I visited the office a month or so ago, and noticed that there were now 9 or 10 programmers doing the same job. We had one web specialist, they now have three. We had two database managers they not have four. I don't have a clue what the other two would do. Could this department be shrunk? My guess is yes, however, I'll bet no one in the department thinks this is possible.

Sounds like the private sector is told to "do more with less", while the public sector is told to "do more with more"..........

 

[Rustic23]

The public sector does not feel the heat of the stock holders. Often there is no need to view the bottom line. Having said that, not all agencies are out of control. I believe Harris County, TX. has had a hiring freeze on for about two years. It will be interesting because there were several new elected officials in the last election. Under the policy in force before the election, if these officials fire the staff of the previous official, they can not replace them.

 

[Texas Proud]

The public sector does not feel the heat of the stock holders. Often there is no need to view the bottom line. Having said that, not all agencies are out of control. I believe Harris County, TX. has had a hiring freeze on for about two years. It will be interesting because there were several new elected officials in the last election. Under the policy in force before the election, if these officials fire the staff of the previous official, they can not replace them.

No knowledge of this... but usually if there is a hiring freeze... it means you can not add any new jobs.... replacing people that leave is OK...

Leave can be retired, fired, quit, etc...

 

[lets-retire]

The public sector does not feel the heat of the stock holders.

I think the public sector bosses felt the heat of the stock holders during the last elections.

Actually I don't really care if I don't get the annual cost of living raise. The total amount of money I would have received was less than $1k per year. In the big scheme of things it is a minor raise. On the other hand I think if they slowed hiring of federal employee to 2/3 or 1/3 or whatever ratio they want to use, it would decrease the size of the government without causing much harm to the economy or the programs being downsized. The people leaving would either be moving on to other jobs, or retiring, either way it would be all voluntary and not work to increase the unemployment numbers. I would expect the cost of the federal employees to drop significantly in the next few years anyway since the boomers are starting to hit retirement age and will be replaced by people at the bottom of the pay scale.

 

[ziggy29]

I would expect the cost of the federal employees to drop significantly in the next few years anyway since the boomers are starting to hit retirement age and will be replaced by people at the bottom of the pay scale.

And perhaps equally significant, more and more federal employees will be on FERS instead of CSRS as we move into the future.

 

[martyb]

And perhaps equally significant, more and more federal employees will be on FERS instead of CSRS as we move into the future.

Except that in the case of some CSRS like myself, the amount I'll be losing in retirement income due to the pay freeze is happening in the 2 years immediately prior to my planned retirement date. January 2013 is when I was fully intent on checking out. Now, in order to meet my financial goals for retirement, I'll probably be looking at working another year or two, increasing my pension by 4% or more. Not whining, just adding more information to this discussion. I expect many CSRS'rs will stick around longer to make up for the reduction in pay from what they had projected thier approximate high-three average was going to be. Also...I've submitted my resume for a higher paying position in Virginia. I've received notice I was referred to the selecting official, but I'd still have to be interviewed and then selected to get the job. If I can get this one, then I'd still be on track to retire in a couple of years, but I'd have to go through the hassle of moving, and dealing with that DC traffic! By my estimate, it'd be worth it financially though. More than one way to skin a cat, maybe....

 

[rescueme]

Nice to get the latter recognition but not too useful paying bills.

I understand, but the Air Force Commendation Medal (for stuff I did in Nam - don't ask) I did receive helped advance me in the promotion pool once I got back to "the world" (don't sell yourself short; we did appreciate it - at least I did )...

 

[Rustic23]

TexasProud,
From what I understand the Harris County freeze will not allow the replacement of personnel, without approval of Commissioners Court. As a couple of the newly elected officials are from another party than the one that use to occupy the office, my guess is they will have to make some exceptions.

 

[Bimmerbill]

Friar, didn't you grant some special liberty? Extra days off with pay are pretty sweet. All I can get is an occasional "supervisors 59" minutes which I end up giving myself since my boss is 1800 miles away.

I've received some bonus money/payouts the last few years. They are typically in the $400 range. After taxes its closer to $250. Not an astromomical figure, but at least it was something.

 

[martyb]

When I was a civilian employee of the Air Force, I got a bonus every year for the last 8-10 years. Sometimes only $300-$500, but the last few years, ranging from $1100 to $1500. Then...2 years ago I switched to a different DoD agency, and discovered they're not all as generous as the Air Force. So far, I've only gotten a 16 hours time off award.

 

[FUEGO]

I've received some bonus money/payouts the last few years. They are typically in the $400 range. After taxes its closer to $250. Not an astromomical figure, but at least it was something.

It has been 3 years since our last bonus in private industry. No raises in that time either, and for a 12 month period we had a pay cut. My six percent cut was the smallest at the company, some had 10% cut.

And we lost health insurance benefits and our 401k match among other things.

During the good years, the bonuses never exceeded $1500/yr.

So I'm about to make a switch to government employment at the state level if things turn out the way I think they will. Decent pay bump (under 10%), pension if I put the time in, and better benefits including 75% more time off (40 days vs 23).

When the pendulum swings the other way in a few years, I'll be set to make a jump to private employment again.

 

[friar1610]

I understand, but the Air Force Commendation Medal (for stuff I did in Nam - don't ask) I did receive helped advance me in the promotion pool once I got back to "the world" (don't sell yourself short; we did appreciate it - at least I did )...

Oh yeah; I understand that. In the Navy, a Navy Achievement Medal or higher gets points factored into the multiple by which enlisted advancement (E-4 through E-6) or selection board eligibility (E-7 through E-9) is determined. Even a letter of commendation signed by a flag officer gets a point. But that's one factor in a computation that includes performance evaluations, time-in-grade, time-in-service, etc. And, at least in my own case, when I was hiring ex-military during my 6 year private industry career, I recognized medals for what they were although I'm not sure all hiring managers did.

Friar, didn't you grant some special liberty? Extra days off with pay are pretty sweet. All I can get is an occasional "supervisors 59" minutes which I end up giving myself since my boss is 1800 miles away.

Of course I did. But depending on how long it's been since you were in, you might be surprised by the degree to which CO's hands are tied on that these days - or at least were tied at the time I retired. But I certainly have always recognized that the ability to give time off is a good thing to have. And there are ways around the 59 minute rule for civilians as well.

received some bonus money/payouts the last few years. They are typically in the $400 range. After taxes its closer to $250. Not an astromomical figure, but at least it was something.

Righto; that was my original point. I tended to use the pool of money I had to give fewer large bonuses rather than giving everyone just enough to get a large pizza and a six-pack. Others in my position preferred to spread it around to more people at lower levels. No right or wrong answer there; just a matter of style.

 

[Nords]

Friar, didn't you grant some special liberty?

Gosh, I hope that authority stayed down at the NCO level...

 

[friar1610]

Gosh, I hope that authority stayed down at the NCO level...

For the most part, but the CO had to set the general parameters.