Die With Zero - Book

[Sunset]

VChan I love your posts and I hope you keep making them.

My GF of 3 years (notice I said GF, I would never get married) is 17 years younger than me (I usually date even younger). But she is the exception to your last sentence, as she makes 400K a year (working), and I make 120K (in retirement). So it is possible.

Again I appreciate your viewpoints. Keep posting.

I'm surprised you don't put a ring on her.
Doesn't seem to be any downside for you.

 

[Dtail]

I'm surprised you don't put a ring on her.
Doesn't seem to be any downside for you.

You then haven't read Mr. Tightwads other posts.

 

[Letj]

A good retirement in my opinion is a retirement in which your standard of living in retirement is equal or better than your standard of living while earning an engineering salary.

At a minimum, this means your retirement income should be about 65% of your working salary assuming your house is paid off. People who retired with a lower standard of living can also be happy. I get that. In my case, my retirement income is about 180% of my former engineering salary when I was working full time. I could not have done that if I had retired at 55 and I did not take the opportunity to double dip.

Therefore....Your problem statement is wrong:
Let's see:

Person A who retires at 55 happy and content for 30 years.

Person B who retires at 65 with almost double the retirement income of person A, live like a king for 20 years and also has money to maintain his health better than person A and ultimately likely to live longer than 20 years.

I already picked B. Mainly because my job from age 55 to age 65 was an easy low stress job with friendly people and I enjoy coming in to work while double dipping and pulling in two paychecks with one job.

I admit that I was ready to quit in a heartbeat if my job started to sour. I always had an option to become person A but I never took that option mainly because the job was a 4 day 10 hours workweek with lots of vacation time. My thinking at that time was that having a 3 day weekend every single week plus generous vacation time is like having a "partial early retirement".

Most people under these circumstances would "probably" like to become person B if an opportunity opened up of having (1) an easy low stress highly paid second job, (2) lots of vacation time, (3) earning two paychecks with one easy job and (4) ultimately having a retirement income close to 2X than that of a 55 years old retiree.

With all due respect, there’s one fundamental flaw in your analysis. You’re assuming that retiring with more is inherently better and affords/assures a better quality of life. More does not mean better quality. I retired at 50 and couldn’t be happier. I enjoy and do activities and travel that I know I can’t do or wouldn’t do as well later as I do now. There’s no price tag on that and I want for nothing. More money and resources definitely doesn’t always equate to a better retirement. In most cases enough would suffice. You’re trying hard to make the case that your choice is superior. I would say, waiting retire to have more to spend when you already have enough for a comfortable retirement is not a superior choice in my humble opinion.

 

[2177V]

I'm surprised you don't put a ring on her.
Doesn't seem to be any downside for you.

He is probably aware that some females have a certain gene in their DNA that changes their behavior after the male specie say “I do”.

 

[Letj]

VChan I love your posts and I hope you keep making them.



My GF of 3 years (notice I said GF, I would never get married) is 17 years younger than me (I usually date even younger). But she is the exception to your last sentence, as she makes 400K a year (working), and I make 120K (in retirement). So it is possible.



Again I appreciate your viewpoints. Keep posting.

Good for you. I know from your moniker you aren’t looking to support a leech.

 

[2177V]

With all due respect, there’s one fundamental flaw in your analysis. You’re assuming that retiring with more is inherently better and affords/assures a better quality of life. More does not mean better quality. I retired at 50 and couldn’t be happier. I enjoy and do activities and travel that I know I can’t do or wouldn’t do as well later as I do now. There’s no price tag on that and I want for nothing. More money and resources definitely doesn’t always equate to a better retirement. In most cases enough would suffice. You’re trying hard to make the case that your choice is superior. I would say, waiting retire to have more to spend when you already have enough for a comfortable retirement is not a superior choice in my humble opinion.

I never stated that retiring late and rich is a superior decision. It is just a choice of mine and I merely provided a history of why and how I made my decision to retire late and rich. I also made counter arguments to make the debate entertaining.

In any case this thread is starting to bore me. My argument of retiring late and rich is also triggering some people’s cognitive dissonance.

I will cease making comments on this issue and go to another thread…such as the debate between a Ford truck versus a Chevy truck. People are very passionate about their views on their decision to buy a Ford or Chevy that is similar to our debate of retiring early or late.

 

[MichaelB]

He is probably aware that some females have a certain gene in their DNA that changes their behavior after the male specie say “I do”.

How about giving it a rest.

 

[Letj]

Finished reading Die with Zero yesterday. I thought it was okay, albeit kind of superficial in its approach. On the upside, it got me thinking about what sort of "experiences" my money might buy. That's not a new line of thought, but I appreciate the spur to think more about it.

I'll mention some of what didn't resonate for me.

1. His emphasis is almost entirely on physical activities. He pays hardly any attention to the fact that a lot of activities that bring people enjoyment and meaning are not physical at all -- they are mental or spiritual. Aside from a couple mentions of doing nice things for loved ones, the entire thrust of the book is on physical degeneration and consequent restriction in physical activities. "Hurry up and buy ski lift tickets, before it's too late." I kept waiting for him to talk about non-physical activities, but he either seems unable to grasp that possibility (I got the impression he's an extroverted, externally oriented person) or it just didn't "fit with his narrative," so he left it out. Big omission. Made the book and the analysis feel shallow to me.

2. I don't believe life ends at death, so I don't feel the urgency that he does, to cram everything into the remaining years of life, or else. When he says things like "When you are no longer able to process energy, you will be declared dead, and your adventure will be over," I respond, "Nope." He sounds like an atheist materialist who thinks this physical life is all there is.

3. I never bought into the protestant work ethic or materialistic mindset, so I felt he was speaking to a different audience than me.

4. He reminds me of the research on satisficers vs. maximizers. Satisficers are happier long term than maximizers. He sounds like a maximizer. I agree with the general thrust (use your money wisely), but I'm not persuaded that trying to get everything Just Right, and maximize your "experience points" -- or even aspiring to that -- is a good idea.

5. He goes on and on about deteriorating with age. It's kind of depressing. He makes no allowance for the fact that people adapt and their interests shift as they get older. He makes it sound like, if you can't hit the slopes at 70, oh no, you won't enjoy your life anymore. No, you just adapt and shift to something else.

6. We have no data suggesting that people get unhappier as they get older. If his premise was true (that physical degeneration with age meant loss of enjoyment), we would see that reflected in the data. But we don't.

7. He doesn't even touch on the fact that the enjoyment level of an experience has less to do with the external event you are "buying" and more to do with your internal attitude and perspective. I can have a more enjoyable experience feeding a squirrel than many people would have on an expensive cruise. Part of what happens as you get older -- at least if you keep learning -- is that your ability to derive enjoyment/satisfaction from experiences increases.

8. He says that the more money you spend on something, the more enjoyment you get out of it. Nah. Some of my best experiences have been on the cheap (e.g., traveling cross-country with some friends, backpacking or camping), and the cheapness has been part of the enjoyment. Yes, spending more money buys you more luxury and convenience, but it doesn't necessarily buy you more enjoyment.

9. In general, the book makes it sound as if the whole game of life is about external stimuli and events. I touched on this in #1, but it's as if the inner life does not exist for him (except as memories of external events).

10. Some of my best years have not been particularly "enjoyable." They have been very hard. Life is not all about enjoyment and pleasure. A full life, imo, is about more than just that.

11. What about spiritual development? What about personal or psychological development? What about learning to transmute "negative" experience into positive? What about becoming a better or wiser person? He doesn't mention any of this. Just go out and spend money on travel, cruises, skiing, big birthday bashes, whatever. It struck me as narrow-minded and unimaginative.

12. He repeats himself a lot.


I have other gripes, but I guess that's enough (probably more than enough, heh). I know I sound cranky, but I'm not. I expected much of this going in, based on descriptions of the book and knowledge about the author, so it wasn't a surprise or a disappointment. Despite my criticisms, I'm glad I read it. It stimulated my thinking on the subject.

You should write your own book. Awesome critique. Life is a lot more than pleasure and enjoyment. People can be deeply contented and fulfilled without jet skiing, luxury travel or whatever enjoyment is construed to be. Ask W2R! I have a relative who only wants to do luxury travel and eat at the finest restaurants so this person can be seen doing so on social media (it’s all for show) and asks me to come along. I went a couple of times and won’t travel nor hang out with this person again. They totally confuse luxury with enjoyment. I love your line about luxury and convenience not equating to enjoyment.

 

[Letj]

This is precisely one of my points. Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Warren Buffet are still working and did not retire early because they are enjoying life while still working. Retiring early or late is a “personal preference issue” and not about whether money is more important than free time or whether free time is more important than money. I brought up my counterpoint since I read too many people are following the crowd like sheep. I find it more entertaining to be the wolf.

These folks are not great examples of people achieving fire and working. I bet they can spend as much time as they want on their luxury yachts while a horde of assistants scurry to prepare any report they may need and plan their lives down the nth detail. They are the working retired. They are only needed for strategic direction/decision making.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

You then haven't read Mr. Tightwads other posts.

Astute observation and good memory.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Finished reading Die with Zero yesterday. I thought it was okay, albeit kind of superficial in its approach. On the upside, it got me thinking about what sort of "experiences" my money might buy. That's not a new line of thought, but I appreciate the spur to think more about it.

I'll mention some of what didn't resonate for me.

1. His emphasis is almost entirely on physical activities. He pays hardly any attention to the fact that a lot of activities that bring people enjoyment and meaning are not physical at all -- they are mental or spiritual. Aside from a couple mentions of doing nice things for loved ones, the entire thrust of the book is on physical degeneration and consequent restriction in physical activities. "Hurry up and buy ski lift tickets, before it's too late." I kept waiting for him to talk about non-physical activities, but he either seems unable to grasp that possibility (I got the impression he's an extroverted, externally oriented person) or it just didn't "fit with his narrative," so he left it out. Big omission. Made the book and the analysis feel shallow to me.

2. I don't believe life ends at death, so I don't feel the urgency that he does, to cram everything into the remaining years of life, or else. When he says things like "When you are no longer able to process energy, you will be declared dead, and your adventure will be over," I respond, "Nope." He sounds like an atheist materialist who thinks this physical life is all there is.

3. I never bought into the protestant work ethic or materialistic mindset, so I felt he was speaking to a different audience than me.

4. He reminds me of the research on satisficers vs. maximizers. Satisficers are happier long term than maximizers. He sounds like a maximizer. I agree with the general thrust (use your money wisely), but I'm not persuaded that trying to get everything Just Right, and maximize your "experience points" -- or even aspiring to that -- is a good idea.

5. He goes on and on about deteriorating with age. It's kind of depressing. He makes no allowance for the fact that people adapt and their interests shift as they get older. He makes it sound like, if you can't hit the slopes at 70, oh no, you won't enjoy your life anymore. No, you just adapt and shift to something else.

6. We have no data suggesting that people get unhappier as they get older. If his premise was true (that physical degeneration with age meant loss of enjoyment), we would see that reflected in the data. But we don't.

7. He doesn't even touch on the fact that the enjoyment level of an experience has less to do with the external event you are "buying" and more to do with your internal attitude and perspective. I can have a more enjoyable experience feeding a squirrel than many people would have on an expensive cruise. Part of what happens as you get older -- at least if you keep learning -- is that your ability to derive enjoyment/satisfaction from experiences increases.

8. He says that the more money you spend on something, the more enjoyment you get out of it. Nah. Some of my best experiences have been on the cheap (e.g., traveling cross-country with some friends, backpacking or camping), and the cheapness has been part of the enjoyment. Yes, spending more money buys you more luxury and convenience, but it doesn't necessarily buy you more enjoyment.

9. In general, the book makes it sound as if the whole game of life is about external stimuli and events. I touched on this in #1, but it's as if the inner life does not exist for him (except as memories of external events).

10. Some of my best years have not been particularly "enjoyable." They have been very hard. Life is not all about enjoyment and pleasure. A full life, imo, is about more than just that.

11. What about spiritual development? What about personal or psychological development? What about learning to transmute "negative" experience into positive? What about becoming a better or wiser person? He doesn't mention any of this. Just go out and spend money on travel, cruises, skiing, big birthday bashes, whatever. It struck me as narrow-minded and unimaginative.

12. He repeats himself a lot.


I have other gripes, but I guess that's enough (probably more than enough, heh). I know I sound cranky, but I'm not. I expected much of this going in, based on descriptions of the book and knowledge about the author, so it wasn't a surprise or a disappointment. Despite my criticisms, I'm glad I read it. It stimulated my thinking on the subject.

Great critique. I haven't read this book, although I do like to read books and watch Tedtalks on the science of happiness. I feel like they are the antidote to the billions of dollars of advertising we get exposed to each year, which skews our views of what really makes people happy to what advertisers want us to think makes us happy. Similar to what you mentioned, the studies seem to show that most happiness factors, like getting out in nature or making new friends, don't have to cost a lot or take place in some exotic locale.

As far as aging, the research I have read show that people get happier as they get older - https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-older-people-happier-20160824-snap-story.html

 

[daylatedollarshort]

These folks are not great examples of people achieving fire and working. I bet they can spend as much time as they want on their luxury yachts while a horde of assistants scurry to prepare any report they may need and plan their lives down the nth detail. They are the working retired. They are only needed for strategic direction/decision making.

Elon Musk used to have a hoard of luxury homes, but he recently sold most of them, except for one event hosting home in California. He now lives in a small, $50K box home he rents on Boca Chica, Texas, near his SpaceX launch site, so he can better focus his time on his pet projects: It’s literally a box—a mass-produced, 20 feet x 20 feet foldable, prefabricated home made by Boxabl, a startup making modular instant houses.

I've pointed this out to our adult kids, hey if it is good enough for Elon, maybe it is something to consider. Think about how early you could retire living in one of these - the ultimate in low overhead and simple living.

 

[tmm99]

Thank you, ER Eddie, for the summarization.

I haven't read the book, but I have heard him talk on Youtube, and he seemed a bit off to me on some of the things he said. He is still youngish and he's obviously looking at things from his perspective. He seemed to not realize that people over 50 can do a lot of physical activities that younger people can do. Also, he seemed really focused on physical activities. I do agree that it's important to enjoy life even during the accumulation phase instead of postponing enjoyment till later years, but he made it sound that everything was so urgent.

 

[ivinsfan]

VChan I love your posts and I hope you keep making them.

My GF of 3 years (notice I said GF, I would never get married) is 17 years younger than me (I usually date even younger). But she is the exception to your last sentence, as she makes 400K a year (working), and I make 120K (in retirement). So it is possible.

Again I appreciate your viewpoints. Keep posting.

I feel like you and VChan might be the same person... At the very least you hang out in each other's basements.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I feel like you and VChan might be the same person... At the very least you hang out in each other's basements.

Why do you feel the need to insult?

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Why do you feel the need to insult?

You praised his posts, and pointed out similar viewpoints you also hold yourself, so why now take the comparison to the similarities as an insult?

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

You praised his posts, and pointed out similar viewpoints you also hold yourself, so why now take the comparison to the similarities as an insult?

Comparing is fine.

Remarking "Hanging out in each other's basements" is an attempt to insult.

I don't see why she felt the need to do so.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Comparing is fine.

Remarking "Hanging out in each other's basements" is an attempt to insult.

I don't see why she felt the need to do so.

If you grew up in the Midwest, that is where many people had their rec rooms and close friends hung out together, like in That 70s Show.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

If you grew up in the Midwest, that is where many people had their rec rooms and close friends hung out together, like in That 70s Show.

That was an excellent show. I'm a big fan.

I'd welcome being friends with VChan, his posts are always interesting. I enjoy his perspective.

I just checked the definition of basement dweller on the Urban dictionary. Too salty to post the definition on a family friendly forum such as this. But you can check for yourself. Definitely an insult. And my question posed to her was why she felt the need to lob insults. I had said nothing to her.

I prefer compliments. I complimented Dtail and VChan this thread. In this and other threads your comments on healthy eating and longevity are DEFINITELY praise worthy.

 

[ivinsfan]

If you grew up in the Midwest, that is where many people had their rec rooms and close friends hung out together, like in That 70s Show.

It's where like minded guys hung out together..the girls would hang out in their bedrooms where the clothes and makeup were..

A failed attempt at humor I guess..

 

[ivinsfan]

That was an excellent show. I'm a big fan.

I'd welcome being friends with VChan, his posts are always interesting. I enjoy his perspective.

I just checked the definition of basement dweller on the Urban dictionary. Too salty to post the definition on a family friendly forum such as this. But you can check for yourself. Definitely an insult. And my question posed to her was why she felt the need to lob insults. I had said nothing to her.

I prefer compliments. I complimented Dtail and VChan this thread. In this and other threads your comments on healthy eating and longevity are DEFINITELY praise worthy.

I'm too old to keep up with urban dictionary, lighten up a little [ just a little ribbing going on..

Truce?

 

[daylatedollarshort]

That was an excellent show. I'm a big fan.

I'd welcome being friends with VChan, his posts are always interesting. I enjoy his perspective.

I just checked the definition of basement dweller on the Urban dictionary. Too salty to post the definition on a family friendly forum such as this. But you can check for yourself. Definitely an insult. And my question posed to her was why she felt the need to lob insults. I had said nothing to her.

I prefer compliments. I complimented Dtail and VChan this thread. In this and other threads your comments on healthy eating and longevity are DEFINITELY praise worthy.

Basement hang out, is different from basement dweller -
https://www.pinterest.com/FifiDarling/basement-hangout/

Five Ways to Make Your Basement the Ultimate Hangout Spot -
https://michaelandassociatesinc.com/design/5-ways-to-make-your-basement-the-ultimate-hangout/

One of my friends from high school had a foosball table in her basement and we hung out there all winter, just like That 70s Show.

 

[Koolau]

You should write your own book. Awesome critique. Life is a lot more than pleasure and enjoyment. People can be deeply contented and fulfilled without jet skiing, luxury travel or whatever enjoyment is construed to be. Ask W2R! I have a relative who only wants to do luxury travel and eat at the finest restaurants so this person can be seen doing so on social media (it’s all for show) and asks me to come along. I went a couple of times and won’t travel nor hang out with this person again. They totally confuse luxury with enjoyment. I love your line about luxury and convenience not equating to enjoyment.

I agree that ER Eddie should write a book - sort of the other side of "filling one's life with experiences." More along the lines of "filling one's life with connections." I would buy it!

 

[ncbill]

I enjoy being the contrarian who is defined as a person who opposes or reject popular opinions. I do the same thing on threads involving passive investments so I post my opinions on active investments and wait for the pushbacks by the passive investors.

This is not about who is right or wrong. A person who retires early or late is not right or wrong. A person who is a passive investor or active investor is not right or wrong. It is about attempting to entertain readers with a lively discussion while providing a counterpoint. A cocktail party can be boring when everyone agrees with each other. If I ever go to a party with cowboy fans…I will declare that I am a 49’er fan so other people can get entertained with the trash talking.

Sure, there are always time versus money tradeoffs.

But it's statistically incorrect to maintain a male can wait until 65 to retire and still expect to enjoy a full 30 years in retirement.

He'll only get around 20 years, not 30, and that's regardless of the level of physical activity over his entire lifetime.

And again, those wanting to employ full-time servants really should consider heading south of the border, since one wouldn't need anywhere near an extra $10k/month to hire a cook, maid, gardener, & even a PYT to serve the mixed drinks.

They'd also be happier to work for an expat given the higher pay & better treatment than they usually get from the locals.

 

[Dtail]

Sure, there are always time versus money tradeoffs.

But it's statistically incorrect to maintain a male can wait until 65 to retire and still expect to enjoy a full 30 years in retirement.

He'll only get around 20 years, not 30, and that's regardless of the level of physical activity over his entire lifetime.

And again, those wanting to employ full-time servants really should consider heading south of the border, since one wouldn't need anywhere near an extra $10k/month to hire a cook, maid, gardener, & even a PYT to serve the mixed drinks.

They'd also be happier to work for an expat given the higher pay & better treatment than they usually get from the locals.

vchan doesn't live south of the border, but IIRC he does live in a country whereby having "servants" would be likely be affordable.