Die With Zero - Book

A good retirement in my opinion is a retirement in which your standard of living in retirement is equal or better than your standard of living while earning an engineering salary.

At a minimum, this means your retirement income should be about 65% of your working salary assuming your house is paid off. People who retired with a lower standard of living can also be happy. I get that. In my case, my retirement income is about 180% of my former engineering salary when I was working full time. I could not have done that if I had retired at 55 and I did not take the opportunity to double dip.

Therefore....Your problem statement is wrong:
Let's see:

Person A who retires at 55 happy and content for 30 years.

Person B who retires at 65 with almost double the retirement income of person A, live like a king for 20 years and also has money to maintain his health better than person A and ultimately likely to live longer than 20 years.

I already picked B. Mainly because my job from age 55 to age 65 was an easy low stress job with friendly people and I enjoy coming in to work while double dipping and pulling in two paychecks with one job.

I admit that I was ready to quit in a heartbeat if my job started to sour. I always had an option to become person A but I never took that option mainly because the job was a 4 day 10 hours workweek with lots of vacation time. My thinking at that time was that having a 3 day weekend every single week plus generous vacation time is like having a "partial early retirement".

Most people under these circumstances would "probably" like to become person B if an opportunity opened up of having (1) an easy low stress highly paid second job, (2) lots of vacation time, (3) earning two paychecks with one easy job and (4) ultimately having a retirement income close to 2X than that of a 55 years old retiree.

As Shakespeare said it best, thou doth protest too much. It seems like you have a lot of regrets working 10 more years and are trying to convince yourself you did the right thing by implying people here are in danger of going to work as Walmart greeters, will run out of money, aren't maintaining their health, have an inferior quality of life as you do, etc. You seem to base everything on happiness & quality of life = $.

Per the longest running study on happiness, the #1 happiness factor is social connections, which usually involves not trying to put other people down because they have different priorities in life than than you do.
 
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As Shakespeare said it best, thou doth protest too much. It seems like you have a lot of regrets working 10 more years and are trying to convince yourself you did the right thing by implying people here are in danger of going to work as Walmart greeters, will run out of money, aren't maintaining their health, have an inferior quality of life as you do, etc. You seem to base everything on happiness & quality of life = $.

Nope I am just happy with my financial situation so I have no regrets at all. Having more retirement time makes people like you happy. However more money to spend in retirement also makes some retirees happy…and I am not the only one. My wife is 20 years younger than me but this was a good exchange. I provide financial security for her with my money while she keeps me happy in more ways than Shakespeare. Try attracting a younger woman by telling her I have less money but more time. :LOL::LOL:
 
A good retirement in my opinion is a retirement in which your standard of living in retirement is equal or better than your standard of living while earning an engineering salary.

At a minimum, this means your retirement income should be about 65% of your working salary assuming your house is paid off. People who retired with a lower standard of living can also be happy. I get that. In my case, my retirement income is about 180% of my former engineering salary when I was working full time. I could not have done that if I had retired at 55 and I did not take the opportunity to double dip.

Therefore....Your problem statement is wrong:
Let's see:

Person A who retires at 55 happy and content for 30 years.

Person B who retires at 65 with almost double the retirement income of person A, live like a king for 20 years and also has money to maintain his health better than person A and ultimately likely to live longer than 20 years.

I already picked B. Mainly because my job from age 55 to age 65 was an easy low stress job with friendly people and I enjoy coming in to work while double dipping and pulling in two paychecks with one job.

I admit that I was ready to quit in a heartbeat if my job started to sour. I always had an option to become person A but I never took that option mainly because the job was a 4 day 10 hours workweek with lots of vacation time. My thinking at that time was that having a 3 day weekend every single week plus generous vacation time is like having a "partial early retirement".

Most people under these circumstances would "probably" like to become person B if an opportunity opened up of having (1) an easy low stress highly paid second job, (2) lots of vacation time, (3) earning two paychecks with one easy job and (4) ultimately having a retirement income close to 2X than that of a 55 years old retiree.

Why can't person A retire @ 55 with the same retirement income as person B?
 
And if you're Zuckerberg, you can retire even earlier with even more dough and hire a harem!
 
Nope I am just happy with my financial situation so I have no regrets at all. Having more retirement time makes people like you happy. However more money to spend in retirement also makes some retirees happy…and I am not the only one. My wife is 20 years younger than me but this was a good exchange. I provide financial security for her with my money while she keeps me happy in more ways than Shakespeare. Try attracting a younger woman by telling her I have less money but more time. :LOL::LOL:

VChan I love your posts and I hope you keep making them.

My GF of 3 years (notice I said GF, I would never get married) is 17 years younger than me (I usually date even younger). But she is the exception to your last sentence, as she makes 400K a year (working), and I make 120K (in retirement). So it is possible.

Again I appreciate your viewpoints. Keep posting.
 
This is from another thread, but seemed appropriate for this discussion...

==============================================

The Beaujolais Bistro

A group of 40-year-old buddies discuss where they should meet for dinner. Finally it is agreed upon that they should meet at the Beaujolais Bistro because the waitresses there have low-cut blouses and really short skirts.



10 years later, at 50 years of age, the group meets again and once again they discuss where they should meet. Finally it is agreed that they should meet at the Beaujolais Bistro because the food there is very good and the wine selection is excellent.



10 years later at 60 years of age, the group meets again and once again they discuss where they should meet. Finally it is agreed that they should meet at the Beaujolais Bistro because they can eat there in peace and quiet and the restaurant is smoke-free.



10 years later, at 70 years of age, the group meets again and once again they discuss where they should meet. Finally it is agreed that they should meet at the Beaujolais Bistro because the restaurant is wheelchair accessible and they even have an elevator.



10 years later, at 80 years of age, the group meets again and once again they discuss where they should meet. Finally it is agreed that they should meet at the Beaujolais Bistro because everyone's heard it's good and they've never been there before.



[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
 
Like most on this forum, DH and I chose to prioritize time over more money. As others have said, it’s all about what you value most in life. We had always wanted to take extended trips, but even with 6 weeks of vacation and two weeks of personal days, it wasn’t possible to travel the way we wanted to while we were working. First of all, we could not have taken all of that time off at the same time, and secondly we would not have been able to relax fully even if it our companies had accepted our missing 6-8 weeks of work in one vacation.

Post-ER at the end of 2016, we have taken four trips of six weeks to three months each, and would have taken a couple more if not for COVID shutdowns in 2020 and moving and doing a major remodel of our new home in 2019.

We have so much more freedom now, and that’s priceless to us. All of our material needs are met, and our financial cushion has only grown since ER given the amazing market performance. Neither of us has even a remote desire to work more and accumulate additional assets. There is always more one can buy if he/she has more money - a yacht, private plane, villas on multiple continents, cars at every villa, staff to support it all, etc. For us, the ability to spend our time as we wish and immerse ourselves in living like locals to a large extent when we travel is much more important than living like a celebrity. YMMV
 
VChan I love your posts and I hope you keep making them.

My GF of 3 years (notice I said GF, I would never get married) is 17 years younger than me (I usually date even younger). But she is the exception to your last sentence, as she makes 400K a year (working), and I make 120K (in retirement). So it is possible.

Again I appreciate your viewpoints. Keep posting.

I enjoy being the contrarian who is defined as a person who opposes or reject popular opinions. I do the same thing on threads involving passive investments so I post my opinions on active investments and wait for the pushbacks by the passive investors.

This is not about who is right or wrong. A person who retires early or late is not right or wrong. A person who is a passive investor or active investor is not right or wrong. It is about attempting to entertain readers with a lively discussion while providing a counterpoint. A cocktail party can be boring when everyone agrees with each other. If I ever go to a party with cowboy fans…I will declare that I am a 49’er fan so other people can get entertained with the trash talking.
 
Finished reading Die with Zero yesterday. I thought it was okay, albeit kind of superficial in its approach. On the upside, it got me thinking about what sort of "experiences" my money might buy. That's not a new line of thought, but I appreciate the spur to think more about it.

I'll mention some of what didn't resonate for me.

1. His emphasis is almost entirely on physical activities. He pays hardly any attention to the fact that a lot of activities that bring people enjoyment and meaning are not physical at all -- they are mental or spiritual. Aside from a couple mentions of doing nice things for loved ones, the entire thrust of the book is on physical degeneration and consequent restriction in physical activities. "Hurry up and buy ski lift tickets, before it's too late." I kept waiting for him to talk about non-physical activities, but he either seems unable to grasp that possibility (I got the impression he's an extroverted, externally oriented person) or it just didn't "fit with his narrative," so he left it out. Big omission. Made the book and the analysis feel shallow to me.

2. I don't believe life ends at death, so I don't feel the urgency that he does, to cram everything into the remaining years of life, or else. When he says things like "When you are no longer able to process energy, you will be declared dead, and your adventure will be over," I respond, "Nope." He sounds like an atheist materialist who thinks this physical life is all there is.

3. I never bought into the protestant work ethic or materialistic mindset, so I felt he was speaking to a different audience than me.

4. He reminds me of the research on satisficers vs. maximizers. Satisficers are happier long term than maximizers. He sounds like a maximizer. I agree with the general thrust (use your money wisely), but I'm not persuaded that trying to get everything Just Right, and maximize your "experience points" -- or even aspiring to that -- is a good idea.

5. He goes on and on about deteriorating with age. It's kind of depressing. He makes no allowance for the fact that people adapt and their interests shift as they get older. He makes it sound like, if you can't hit the slopes at 70, oh no, you won't enjoy your life anymore. No, you just adapt and shift to something else.

6. We have no data suggesting that people get unhappier as they get older. If his premise was true (that physical degeneration with age meant loss of enjoyment), we would see that reflected in the data. But we don't.

7. He doesn't even touch on the fact that the enjoyment level of an experience has less to do with the external event you are "buying" and more to do with your internal attitude and perspective. I can have a more enjoyable experience feeding a squirrel than many people would have on an expensive cruise. Part of what happens as you get older -- at least if you keep learning -- is that your ability to derive enjoyment/satisfaction from experiences increases.

8. He says that the more money you spend on something, the more enjoyment you get out of it. Nah. Some of my best experiences have been on the cheap (e.g., traveling cross-country with some friends, backpacking or camping), and the cheapness has been part of the enjoyment. Yes, spending more money buys you more luxury and convenience, but it doesn't necessarily buy you more enjoyment.

9. In general, the book makes it sound as if the whole game of life is about external stimuli and events. I touched on this in #1, but it's as if the inner life does not exist for him (except as memories of external events).

10. Some of my best years have not been particularly "enjoyable." They have been very hard. Life is not all about enjoyment and pleasure. A full life, imo, is about more than just that.

11. What about spiritual development? What about personal or psychological development? What about learning to transmute "negative" experience into positive? What about becoming a better or wiser person? He doesn't mention any of this. Just go out and spend money on travel, cruises, skiing, big birthday bashes, whatever. It struck me as narrow-minded and unimaginative.

12. He repeats himself a lot.


I have other gripes, but I guess that's enough (probably more than enough, heh). I know I sound cranky, but I'm not. I expected much of this going in, based on descriptions of the book and knowledge about the author, so it wasn't a surprise or a disappointment. Despite my criticisms, I'm glad I read it. It stimulated my thinking on the subject.
 
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^^^^ Excellent analysis, ER Eddie. You make many good counterpoints. Much appreciated! These thoughts will be on my mind through the second half of the book.
 
^^^^ Excellent analysis, ER Eddie. You make many good counterpoints. Much appreciated!
I agree. Love the line about feeding a squirrel. I find some moments that other people would find to be odd or they wouldn't even notice to be some of the best. It happens with DW and me a lot with wildlife and nature in general.
 
And if you're Zuckerberg, you can retire even earlier with even more dough and hire a harem!

This is precisely one of my points. Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Warren Buffet are still working and did not retire early because they are enjoying life while still working. Retiring early or late is a “personal preference issue” and not about whether money is more important than free time or whether free time is more important than money. I brought up my counterpoint since I read too many people are following the crowd like sheep. I find it more entertaining to be the wolf.
 
Finished reading Die with Zero yesterday. I thought it was okay, albeit kind of superficial in its approach. On the upside, it got me thinking about what sort of "experiences" my money might buy. That's not a new line of thought, but I appreciate the spur to think more about it.

I'll mention some of what didn't resonate for me.

1. His emphasis is almost entirely on physical activities. He pays hardly any attention to the fact that a lot of activities that bring people enjoyment and meaning are not physical at all -- they are mental or spiritual. Aside from a couple mentions of doing nice things for loved ones, the entire thrust of the book is on physical degeneration and consequent restriction in physical activities. "Hurry up and buy ski lift tickets, before it's too late." I kept waiting for him to talk about non-physical activities, but he either seems unable to grasp that possibility (I got the impression he's an extroverted, externally oriented person) or it just didn't "fit with his narrative," so he left it out. Big omission. Made the book and the analysis feel shallow to me.

8. He doesn't even touch on the fact that the enjoyment level of an experience has less to do with the external event you are "buying" and more to do with your internal attitude and perspective. I can have a more enjoyable experience feeding a squirrel than many people would have on an expensive cruise. Part of what happens as you get older -- at least if you keep learning -- is that your ability to derive enjoyment/satisfaction from experiences increases.

My take on that was that he suggested buying lift tickets before you got too old because sooner or later you will be too old to ski. But skiing was just an example that can be replaced with several other demanding physical activities.

I do agree that some enjoyable experiences can cost little or nothing. I've stated before that one of my favourite things to do is sit around the campfire strumming guitars with friends.
 
While this is an early retirement forum, people needs to hear from both sides so they can make an informed decision. I made the decision to have the higher quality of retirement life and I fully respect people who gave up a higher quality of retirement life for a longer retirement.

There is another and far, far superior side that you are not considering: Retire Early and have generous resources such as you got by working longer.

Sure, as you say, more money is usually a good thing. But why not accumulate it in a timely way and not have to work until 65? You seem to have stretched the working part of your life out so far vchan2177 when the option to gather the same resources sooner is frequently there if you're creative.

I'm curious, did you like the county job so much (the socialization and all that) that you would have still done it even if at the time you started it you had similar resources to what you eventually wound up with?
 
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There is another and far, far superior side that you are not considering: Retire Early and have generous resources such as you got by working longer.

Sure, as you say, more money is usually a good thing. But why not accumulate it in a timely way and not have to work until 65?

Or do what some of us did that only earned a modest income...spend wisely and live like many people who earn twice as much.
 
I brought up my counterpoint since I read too many people are following the crowd like sheep. I find it more entertaining to be the wolf.

Nobody here is following the crowd like sheep. You're seeing a group of generally independent thinking individuals gathering to discuss a common interest.
 
Or do what some of us did that only earned a modest income...spend wisely and live like many people who earn twice as much.

Nah, that's not what I was referring to at all.
 
My take on that was that he suggested buying lift tickets before you got too old because sooner or later you will be too old to ski. But skiing was just an example that can be replaced with several other demanding physical activities.

I do agree that some enjoyable experiences can cost little or nothing. I've stated before that one of my favourite things to do is sit around the campfire strumming guitars with friends.


I have not read the book but at age 70, I still surf in the summer and ski in the winter for a personal reason. When people get old, they get feeble and then lose their balancing skills. When they lose their balancing skills and they need a cane. They sometimes fall and hurt themselves. This has happened to my Mom and Uncle and in both cases, the falls were fatal.

In my opinion, it is vital to maintain your balancing skills as you age. Thus I surf on the three foot waves at Waikiki which is famous for beginners and ski the beginner slopes. I can no longer surf 20 foot waves or ski the advanced slopes. However, I will never stop doing sport activities than requires maintaining your balancing skills. This include playing some basketball and bicycling. I can't jump very high any more and win any racing events but the key point is never stop because stopping will increase your risk.
 
There is another and far, far superior side that you are not considering: Retire Early and have generous resources such as you got by working longer.

Sure, as you say, more money is usually a good thing. But why not accumulate it in a timely way and not have to work until 65? You seem to have stretched the working part of your life out so far vchan2177 when the option to gather the same resources sooner is frequently there if you're creative.

I'm curious, did you like the county job so much (the socialization and all that) that you would have still done it even if at the time you started it you had similar resources to what you eventually wound up with?


Tell Warren Buffet to retire early by using this argument. Retirement is a personal choice and people has the right to go either way.
 
I have not read the book but at age 70, I still surf in the summer and ski in the winter for a personal reason. When people get old, they get feeble and then lose their balancing skills. When they lose their balancing skills and they need a cane. They sometimes fall and hurt themselves. This has happened to my Mom and Uncle and in both cases, the falls were fatal.

In my opinion, it is vital to maintain your balancing skills as you age. Thus I surf on the three foot waves at Waikiki which is famous for beginners and ski the beginner slopes. I can no longer surf 20 foot waves or ski the advanced slopes. However, I will never stop doing sport activities than requires maintaining your balancing skills. This include playing some basketball and bicycling. I can't jump very high any more and win any racing events but the key point is never stop because stopping will increase your risk.

Agree with the generic concept of keeping in shape and maintaining balance.
However those concepts can be achieved in an earlier retirement too and one doesn't need much monies to do so, dependent on the sport.
I retired at 57 and now play Pickleball 6x weekly in a competitive environment and this sport does not require lots of money to play.
Every week I think about (on the court) how special it is to be playing this sport at 10am (at age 61 now) while many of folks I know of at my age are still working.
 
Nobody here is following the crowd like sheep. You're seeing a group of generally independent thinking individuals gathering to discuss a common interest.

+1
There are "sheep" that are following the bond king's prediction, which have been off in the bond and stock markets lately.
 
Tell Warren Buffet to retire early by using this argument. Retirement is a personal choice and people has the right to go either way.

That's confusing. If you like the Warren Buffet approach, why did you retire at 65? He flew by 65 like that was just his career starting point!

Anyway, given that a person desires to spend some end-of-life time not working, my point is that one choice is to career and life plan to reach your financial retirement goal earlier rather than later. You sounded like you were making the argument that since working longer yielded a larger FIRE portfolio and a second pension, and you wanted to have a larger retirement budget, you worked longer. But you're now sounding more like you continued to work because you liked doing it, kinda like Warren.

I totally agree that it's a personal choice on how you want to live your life. I'm just saying there are choices beyond picking your FIRE age. It isn't pick one of "either way." It's pick one of "infinite ways."

I also agree with you that, practically/generally speaking, more money is better. If we had more pension/SS income or a bigger FIRE portfolio, we'd do more than we do now. But when we FIRED at 58(me) and 55(DW), we had met our financial goals and are doing OK, no regrets.
 
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As I explained earlier, a portfolio double in value after 10 years assuming 7.5% annual return. A factor of 2 means I have double the income compared to if I had retired 10 years earlier. For example: a retirement income of $10K a month at age 55 versus a retirement income of $20K a month at age 65. Perhaps it was a misnomer.



As a side issue…since I am an engineer who likes to play with numbers…a guy who retires at 55 and lives 30 years translate to 30 x 12 x $10K = $3.6M. A guy who retires at 65 and lives 20 years translate to 20 x 12 x $20K = $4.8M. Hence early retiree loses $1.2M of higher quality of life in this example.



Granted people has more free time when they retire early but remember that people do get vacation time when working 10 years longer. Due to seniority my vacation time was 25 vacation days per year which was sufficient for me to increase my quality of life by $1M.



It’s just a reflection on what one values. Do you value more free time to live your life as you choose once you’ve reached a comfortable number or do you value more money? It’s your choice.
 

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