Die With Zero - Book

[daylatedollarshort]

The author is 52. He's a hedge fund manager, film producer, and poker player. He's got a bazillion dollars.

I wouldn't consider him expert on anything -- certainly not on what it's like to be 60.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read the book, but it doesn't seem to be a research based book, just someone's opinion who doesn't seem like they would even relate to those living a middle class / upper middle class lifestyle in retirement, which is where I'm at.

Many of the people in our senior clubs are pretty active and traveling into their early 80s, but they do seem to slow down after that.

 

[ER Eddie]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't read the book, but it doesn't seem to be a research based book, just someone's opinion who doesn't seem like they would even relate to those living a middle class / upper middle class lifestyle in retirement, which is where I'm at.

I haven't read the book either -- it better hurry up and get here; I've only got 6 weeks before I can't do anything besides play shuffleboard -- but I get that impression too. Economically, he's in the stratosphere. I read he made a lot of dough off Goldman Sachs in the 2008 recession.

He's a high-stakes poker player and hedge fund manager, which to me suggests he is a high-risk, excitement-driven type person, who places a lot of value on money. I wonder if part of the reason he wrote the book is to remind himself and other people like him that there is more to life than just piling up money. Given the excitement/risk-oriented personality I think he has, I expect a "grab the gusto" type message.

 

[levindb]

Just finished the book...my thoughts:

1. I agree with his concepts that you should give with a warm hand (alive) rather than a cold hand (dead).
2. I agree that experiences can be more rewarding than things.

3. I disagree that your prime years are 45-60 and you go downhill rapidly after that. I believe you can spend time and/or money to help maintain your good health, and people should do that. My wife and I did a mini triathlon last year in the Everglades, but I also see quite a few of my peers who cannot walk up a flight of stairs. I am 71 right now, and we kayak, bike, or hike on a daily basis. We also do Bikram Yoga 4 days each week. (google it)

I think the author focuses too much on Net Worth and not enough on Cash Flow. If you have SS and Pension income, for example, you may not need much of a nest egg later in life...but he really does not mention sources of income much.

His focus on DOING THINGS is spot on for this community. Once we stop doing things, I believe we can deteriorate quickly. Each of us should spend time putting together a time oriented bucket list as he suggests. Give your retirement and your life some purpose.

 

[RobbieB]

I'mma gonna go visit my boat guy next week!

The market made me more dough last month than ever, a new high! So, off to Stockton and a visit with boat dude and stop by the marina on the way home to see about a slip.

Get this money hole in the water fired up before it's fall striper season -

 

[FANOFJESUS]

I'mma gonna go visit my boat guy next week!

The market made me more dough last month than ever, a new high! So, off to Stockton and a visit with boat dude and stop by the marina on the way home to see about a slip.

Get this money hole in the water fired up before it's fall striper season -

How much do you think the boat will cost?

 

[RobbieB]

Around 10 grand, I buy old boats in good shape with reliable motors. Nothing shiny and new, but it won't leave me stranded on the river. My boat guy and I go back decades, lotta good times down the river.

The slip will be another say $150/month and my boat guy does all the pull in/out service because I don't do trailers.

 

[rodi]

Damn, I've only got 6 weeks to live it up.

I'm better off than you - I've got 9 weeks to live it up.

 

[RobbieB]

I'm 6 years past living it up. But I'mma gonna get me another boat -

 

[FANOFJESUS]

Around 10 grand, I buy old boats in good shape with reliable motors. Nothing shiny and new, but it won't leave me stranded on the river. My boat guy and I go back decades, lotta good times down the river.

The slip will be another say $150/month and my boat guy does all the pull in/out service because I don't do trailers.

OK so not a big deal not a blow the dough thread.

 

[ER Eddie]

3. I disagree that your prime years are 45-60 and you go downhill rapidly after that. I believe you can spend time and/or money to help maintain your good health, and people should do that. My wife and I did a mini triathlon last year in the Everglades, but I also see quite a few of my peers who cannot walk up a flight of stairs. I am 71 right now, and we kayak, bike, or hike on a daily basis. We also do Bikram Yoga 4 days each week. (google it)

That's great, man, good to hear. I'm 59 and not half that active. Good for you.

I think generalizations based on age are dangerous to our psyches. There is good research showing that if people believe they will deteriorate as they get older, that belief becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And conversely, if they don't believe that, it doesn't happen. So our beliefs about aging (internalized agism?) play an important role in our fate.

I'm much healthier now than I was a decade ago. I know there will be a point where things began to fall off (hopefully not literally), but my sense is, that won't happen for a decade or more.

People always throw out averages (e.g., average age when you "decline"), but it's important to remember averages are gross oversimplifications of reality. They conceal huge variability in individual outcomes.

Also, I think "decline" depends very much on the activity we're talking about. I probably won't be doing high-difficulty mountain bike trails when I'm 70, for instance, but I don't care, because I'm not interested in that, even now. Can I walk around the block? Can I lift a 50 pound sack? Can I ride my bike? Can I hike a moderate trail? That's all I need to do.

The other stuff I'm interested in (e.g., reading and writing) is more a question of intellectual fortitude, not physical. Everything seems to get framed in physical terms. That's important, no doubt, but I'm more concerned about cognitive decline than physical. If I'm hobbling a little when I'm 80, that's fine. If I can't read or write, I'm going to be disturbed.

I'm better off than you - I've got 9 weeks to live it up.

I'll save you a spot on the shuffleboard court.

 

[2177V]

Just finished the book...my thoughts:

3. I disagree that your prime years are 45-60 and you go downhill rapidly after that. I believe you can spend time and/or money to help maintain your good health, and people should do that. My wife and I did a mini triathlon last year in the Everglades, but I also see quite a few of my peers who cannot walk up a flight of stairs. I am 71 right now, and we kayak, bike, or hike on a daily basis. We also do Bikram Yoga 4 days each week. (google it)

His focus on DOING THINGS is spot on for this community. Once we stop doing things, I believe we can deteriorate quickly. Each of us should spend time putting together a time oriented bucket list as he suggests. Give your retirement and your life some purpose.

I also disagree that your prime years are 45-60. When I was 61, I was still working and I was commuting by bicycle 20 miles or 2 hours one way. Biking 4 hours a day is not for everyone but I did it to keep me young.

After retiring at 65, I still bike and I built a retaining wall involving moving a lot of soil. At age 70, I decided to re-roof my shingle house by myself without any helpers. This included stripping two layers of old shingles and loading about 5,000 lbs of old shingles on my van to a recycling center which took 4 trips. Hauling new shingles and underlayment to my roof and doing everything myself is not for everyone at age 70 but I did it to keep me young.

I still bike, surf in Hawaii and ski in the mountains. I am in good health with no back or joint problems. I do not take medicine except for vitamins. I got COVID-19 but I easily recovered and I attributed this recovery at age 70 to my health.

There is a article in bicycling magazine on “performance age” versus “biological age” which states your real age can be your performance age and not your biological age. If you can do things at a biological age of 70 that are normally done by guys at age 50, then your real age is 50 and not 70. My wife is 20 years younger than me so I need to perform as if I am age 50 to keep up with her.

It is a mindset. If you think you are old, then you are old. I truly believe that I am 20 years younger than my biological age and I am enjoying life as if I am still in the prime of my life. You do not age and become old unless you let it. Keeping fit is the best thing you can do in retirement.

 

[Music Lover]

There is a article in bicycling magazine on “performance age” versus “biological age” which states your real age can be your performance age and not your biological age. If you can do things at a biological age of 70 that are normally done by guys at age 50, then your real age is 50 and not 70. My wife is 20 years younger than me so I need to perform as if I am age 50 to keep up with her.

It is a mindset. If you think you are old, then you are old. I truly believe that I am 20 years younger than my biological age and I am enjoying life as if I am still in the prime of my life. You do not age and become old unless you let it. Keeping fit is the best thing you can do in retirement.

I agree that keeping fit is one of the best things you can do. The benefits of a half hour a day of proper exercise gives back so much quality of life that it's a no brainer. I'm just 59 yet many of my friends my age are already slowing down, most of it due to inactivity.

I hope to still be active at 70 and beyond, good for you for staying fit, it's obviously paid off.

 

[target2019]

Some posts are interpreting a book not read.

This illustration is a good overview of the author's interpretation of what an average person is going through as they age. It doesn't say that life is over at 60 or anything like that. The point is that average health at 60 is not what it was in the peak years. Another point is that increasing wealth rises above the aging curve. So you have more money but the range of possible activities is not as broad as it once was.

 

[Koolau]

Some posts are interpreting a book not read.

This illustration is a good overview of the author's interpretation of what an average person is going through as they age. It doesn't say that life is over at 60 or anything like that. The point is that average health at 60 is not what it was in the peak years. Another point is that increasing wealth rises above the aging curve. So you have more money but the range of possible activities is not as broad as it once was.

Good illustration. Whether your life fits the lines will vary, but the trends are typically true for most of us. I will say that the curves may not be a smooth as shown. In our case, the health curve has been more sharply down. YMV

 

[zinger1457]

So what activities were you doing at 40-45 that you aren't able to do at 60-65? I can't think of anything.

 

[Music Lover]

So what activities were you doing at 40-45 that you aren't able to do at 60-65? I can't think of anything.

There are lots of things that people can do at age 40 that they can't do when they're 60 without risking injury. When is the last time you sprinted full out?

 

[zinger1457]

There are lots of things that people can do at age 40 that they can't do when they're 60 without risking injury. When is the last time you sprinted full out?

The discussion was activities that one would 'want' to be able to do but can no longer because of age. Never heard anyone express a desire or need to be able to sprint full out even if it's possible to do it.

 

[levindb]

Some posts are interpreting a book not read.

This illustration is a good overview of the author's interpretation of what an average person is going through as they age. It doesn't say that life is over at 60 or anything like that.

The noted chart above suggests your physical abilities diminish by 70% when you are 65, and then by 75 you are bedridden (i.e., no activity). The author also suggests this is the AVERAGE person. Maybe I do not hang around assisted living facilities enough, but I just am not seeing that kind of inactivity. Maybe I live in an area with more active people (Hilton Head) or maybe the chart is not a good illustration of the older population. I thought if you live to age 65, you will probably live to age 85 on average...according to SSA.

The author suggests paying someone to do your laundry so you can have 2 hours/week of more great experiences...I think it may be better to do your own laundry and do 2 hours/week more fitness activities. Of course, YMMV.

 

[Music Lover]

The discussion was activities that one would 'want' to be able to do but can no longer because of age. Never heard anyone express a desire or need to be able to sprint full out even if it's possible to do it.

I want to run hard/sprint but it's not going to happen at age 59. I used to be able to sprint to first base and sometimes beat the throw from 3rd or short. Now if I hit a ground ball to an infielder it's usually an out.

Anyone who plays a sport or engages in demanding physical activity knows that they can't do at 60 what they were able to do at 40.

 

[Dtail]

So what activities were you doing at 40-45 that you aren't able to do at 60-65? I can't think of anything.

Played competitive basketball at 40 against other 40 something players who were on their high school/sometimes college teams.
Tore my ACL at age 40 and quit basketball.
I play competitive Pickleball now at 61, but no way would I be able to play competitive basketball at this age and would be scared of injury to even try it.

 

[Music Lover]

I also used to dive for fly balls in the outfield, but I can't do that anymore either. Now I play infield and let the youngsters play in outfield.

 

[zinger1457]

Played competitive basketball at 40 against other 40 something players who were on their high school/sometimes college teams.
Tore my ACL at age 40 and quit basketball.
I play competitive Pickleball now at 61, but no way would I be able to play competitive basketball at this age and would be scared of injury to even try it.

I played basketball in college and in various leagues afterwards and would agree serious competitive ball is rough on the body, even for someone in their 30's. Enjoyed the memories but never had a desire to go back to that.

 

[target2019]

The noted chart above suggests your physical abilities diminish by 70% when you are 65, and then by 75 you are bedridden (i.e., no activity). The author also suggests this is the AVERAGE person. Maybe I do not hang around assisted living facilities enough, but I just am not seeing that kind of inactivity. Maybe I live in an area with more active people (Hilton Head) or maybe the chart is not a good illustration of the older population. I thought if you live to age 65, you will probably live to age 85 on average...according to SSA.

The author suggests paying someone to do your laundry so you can have 2 hours/week of more great experiences...I think it may be better to do your own laundry and do 2 hours/week more fitness activities. Of course, YMMV.

It would be unusual if everyone viewed an illustrative diagram and saw the same point.

To be technically correct and show the curve ending at 78.5 is something not in my thoughts presently.

If Hilton Head has a better curve, then that is probably borne out by longevity statistics.

 

[ncbill]

I also disagree that your prime years are 45-60. When I was 61, I was still working and I was commuting by bicycle 20 miles or 2 hours one way. Biking 4 hours a day is not for everyone but I did it to keep me young.

After retiring at 65, I still bike and I built a retaining wall involving moving a lot of soil. At age 70, I decided to re-roof my shingle house by myself without any helpers. This included stripping two layers of old shingles and loading about 5,000 lbs of old shingles on my van to a recycling center which took 4 trips. Hauling new shingles and underlayment to my roof and doing everything myself is not for everyone at age 70 but I did it to keep me young.

I still bike, surf in Hawaii and ski in the mountains. I am in good health with no back or joint problems. I do not take medicine except for vitamins. I got COVID-19 but I easily recovered and I attributed this recovery at age 70 to my health.

There is a article in bicycling magazine on “performance age” versus “biological age” which states your real age can be your performance age and not your biological age. If you can do things at a biological age of 70 that are normally done by guys at age 50, then your real age is 50 and not 70. My wife is 20 years younger than me so I need to perform as if I am age 50 to keep up with her.

It is a mindset. If you think you are old, then you are old. I truly believe that I am 20 years younger than my biological age and I am enjoying life as if I am still in the prime of my life. You do not age and become old unless you let it. Keeping fit is the best thing you can do in retirement.

Statistically few males will be able to physically perform in their 70s what they could do in their 50s.

Guys who want to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in retirement shouldn't think they'll just work until age 65-70 and then still be able to do so.

That's why I don't consider retiring in one's 50s as early, assuming one wants 30 years of retirement.

Most males waiting to retire until age 65 will indeed face a retirement much closer to 20 years than 30.

 

[2177V]

We can only speak statistically, but few males will be able to physically perform in their 70s what they could do in their 50s.

Most males waiting to retire until age 65 will indeed face a retirement much closer to 20 years than 30.

The decision to retire early or late is a personal one. It is whatever path that makes you happier. If you love your job and you are in good health, then you can retire late. If you hate your job and you are in bad health, then you should retire early.

However, retiring early usually means your retirement will be of a lesser quality unless you get a retirement job. This is because a person who retire late will have a bigger nest egg. What good is 30 years of retirement and you can only afford eating hamburgers? I prefer 20 years of retirement and I can afford steak dinners.

The quality of life in retirement matters. Duration of retirement also matters. This is why I focused on my health and my fitness so that I have a good possibility of having both.