Exit sign?

[zekeboz]

Hi – I thought I would bounce my situation off of the group given the other good feedback that I have received with other posts...

So I have been at my company roughly 20 years. The last 10 have been managing a couple small teams which total 8-10 folks. When I took this position a couple of my new direct reports had salaries similar to mine and most years, we would leapfrog each other. They of course had no idea but it was always a sore spot for me and one that I just dealt with given the other perks of the job.

Now after this most recent compensation period I am feeling… well… ticked off about the situation knowing that my department head is just being cheap. At first, I thought it was Covid burnout but after bouncing the scenario off a close friend he thought I was being taken advantage of since I am not being a “squeaky wheel” about my pay. In my recent review I pushed the subject with my manager and am waiting to hear back on what they come back with. (manager agrees with me, it is there boss who is the issue i believe)

My plan is to FIRE soon, but I have OMY syndrome at the moment though this situation has had one silver lining in that it has helped push me in that direction. I can’t really complain about the job or company outside of this area and have enjoyed my time but knowing that this is going on, it has really impacted me this year and I question how far I should push the issue given mentally I am already month to month on when to submit my notice and retire.

What would you do…?

Thanks

 

[MBAustin]

If you are confident that you are FI (have run FIREcalc, accounted for occasional major expenses, have health insurance plans, etc.), then push away for more cash if you're still enjoying the w*rk and aren't in a hurry to do what's next. Worst case is boss's boss says no and you can give them 2 weeks notice and skedaddle. Good luck.

 

[naggz]

"I would like a raise / bonus / back pay of $xxx or I am quitting".

Best case scenario (financially) is they give it to you, then replace you shortly after with some severance.

Middle case, they give it to you but treat you like crap, then you can quit anyway.

Worst case is they don't, and you retire.

 

[youbet]

Hi – I thought I would bounce my situation off of the group given the other good feedback that I have received with other posts...

So I have been at my company roughly 20 years. The last 10 have been managing a couple small teams which total 8-10 folks. When I took this position a couple of my new direct reports had salaries similar to mine and most years, we would leapfrog each other. They of course had no idea but it was always a sore spot for me and one that I just dealt with given the other perks of the job.

Now after this most recent compensation period I am feeling… well… ticked off about the situation knowing that my department head is just being cheap. At first, I thought it was Covid burnout but after bouncing the scenario off a close friend he thought I was being taken advantage of since I am not being a “squeaky wheel” about my pay. In my recent review I pushed the subject with my manager and am waiting to hear back on what they come back with. (manager agrees with me, it is there boss who is the issue i believe)

My plan is to FIRE soon, but I have OMY syndrome at the moment though this situation has had one silver lining in that it has helped push me in that direction. I can’t really complain about the job or company outside of this area and have enjoyed my time but knowing that this is going on, it has really impacted me this year and I question how far I should push the issue given mentally I am already month to month on when to submit my notice and retire.

What would you do…?

I'd put together a FIRE plan of my own that is not triggered by small adjustments to my salary for my last year or two of work. You're letting indecision and the OMY tail wag the FIRE dog.

Do you want to retire now or not? Are you mentally and financially ready to retire? Are you allowing a minor issue with your job impact you to an inappropriate extent?

Try to keep your personal emotions/feelings out of the plan. For example, if a few months from now you're retired because you pushed for the pay raise hard and they declined and you walked off the job or gave short notice, that doesn't mean "you showed them!". It means someone else called the shots for you.

If you want to work OMY, would making 10% - 15% - 20% more during that one year impact your FIRE plans significantly? If so, you're cutting it way too close financially and I wouldn't push too hard. If not, then it sounds like you're fully prepared financially and shouldn't even consider OMY. But, of course, it sounds like you don't really know what you want to do and want to let a pay raise for your final year (or not) chart your final course.

 

[brett]

Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

Leave emotion outside the door. Sit down, make or review your current financial situation. Decide on your retirement requirements-min, max, and desired. If there is a gap, make a plan to fill that gap either financially or by lowering your FIRE expectations.

Do not let this small blip cause you to abandon your retirement plans because of a small, emotionally fueled knee jerk action. You will regret it.

This is the time for common sense, measured responses/actions, and razor sharp balanced retirement planning.

I was in a similar situation prior to retiring eight years ago. I sat back with a somewhat dispassionate attitude and decided what was best for me was to wait. Those extra two years were incredibly rewarding from a financial perspective and made a significant impact on our retirement.

 

[PaunchyPirate]

I was a highly compensated employee for my role in my last several years of employment. I was top-ranked in my annual reviews and definitely considered a star performer. I knew that I earned more than my peers and certainly more than the younger generation coming in to replace me. I also was making more than my direct manager. In fact, my Director (2 levels above me) told me I was the highest paid in the entire group. However, this company did not necessarily give annual merit pay raises. And often promotions didn't really get much of a raise. For 10 years in a row, I did not get a raise, while being told that there was limited money for raises and that money needed to be given to those earning lower amounts to "bring them up to equal levels".

I did not like this, but I made a very good living and knew that I was also probably making about the max I could get should I change jobs. But still, one likes to get a raise now and then.

Finally, after 10 years of this and having enough, I documented my pay raises with the company (I'd been there 18 years at this point) and also documented what inflation alone had done to that earning power. I presented that to my Director and told him I wanted a $15-20,000 per year raise to at least partially cover what inflation had done to my income value. He said he fully understood and supported me getting a raise. But, in his usual non-commit style, he said he would have to "work this through the channels" and that would take time. I made my request 3 months prior to the end of the fiscal year so that he could time it with the new compensation period.

I never brought it up again, however, as the days, weeks, months passed, I grew more and more disgruntled with the situation. Finally, after 11 months, my Director calls me and tells me that he had to wait for his bosses to initiate approvals for several highly-paid employees to get merit raises. They lumped them all together into a proposal to senior management to get them approved. He was very happy to tell me that he got me a $6,000 raise and it would be effective at the beginning of the new compensation period (still a couple months away).

He wanted to know if I was happy. After a pause, I told him "to be honest it seems like a bit of a knife in the back considering I asked for at least $15,000 and I documented how inflation alone had set me back twice that". He said, he understood, but that was all there was available.

Hanging up that call, that was when I made the decision that I owed the company nothing and that I was going to start the countdown toward retirement. A date that I alone would choose. I basically checked out from my employment and only did work that was required for me to keep my job. For the most part I did nothing above and beyond the call of duty. My direct boss knew exactly what was going on. I was quite honest with him.

Six months later, I gave my retirement notice. The same Director called me and asked me to give them a year's notice because that's what others had done for retirements. I told him he had 6 weeks. I should have given 2 weeks.

I should have made a stink about it earlier or left the company. But it was easier to stay put. But I have no regrets on asking for the raise. I doubt I would have gotten the $6,000 had I not done that.

 

[zekeboz]

If you are confident that you are FI (have run FIREcalc, accounted for occasional major expenses, have health insurance plans, etc.), then push away for more cash if you're still enjoying the w*rk and aren't in a hurry to do what's next. Worst case is boss's boss says no and you can give them 2 weeks notice and skedaddle. Good luck.

Thanks for the comment.

Yeah - that is what I was thinking. The next couple weeks will be interesting!

 

[HarveyS]

Do you get a different level of equity? Is your target bonus % higher than you reports? Do you get a car? Business class travel? Are you on a different medical plan?
You mention other perks - what are they?
I've been in this situation as far as monthly check. But by adding all the other compensation together I was paid more than my reports, recognizing the responsibility and accountability of the position.
If you are happy with your pay, why does it matter what others are paid? If you are not happy, time to move on.

 

[zekeboz]

I'd put together a FIRE plan of my own that is not triggered by small adjustments to my salary for my last year or two of work. You're letting indecision and the OMY tail wag the FIRE dog.

Do you want to retire now or not? Are you mentally and financially ready to retire? Are you allowing a minor issue with your job impact you to an inappropriate extent?

Try to keep your personal emotions/feelings out of the plan. For example, if a few months from now you're retired because you pushed for the pay raise hard and they declined and you walked off the job or gave short notice, that doesn't mean "you showed them!". It means someone else called the shots for you.

If you want to work OMY, would making 10% - 15% - 20% more during that one year impact your FIRE plans significantly? If so, you're cutting it way too close financially and I wouldn't push too hard. If not, then it sounds like you're fully prepared financially and shouldn't even consider OMY. But, of course, it sounds like you don't really know what you want to do and want to let a pay raise for your final year (or not) chart your final course.

Thanks for your comments!

We are already "FI" it is the RE portion that I have some mental gymnastics to get through.

 

[yhoomajor]

Not sure about other industries but in Big tech (likes of FB, Apple, Google et al).. its not uncommon for engineers to make more than their managers. Also in these companies, IC and Management are usually separate tracks for moving up as well.

 

[RetMD21]

Once you are FI it can help to have a nudge. I couldn't get time off when I needed to help my elderly mother out of state. I couldn't see family obligations becoming any less and gave (long) notice shortly after. If you are feeling unappreciated and you don't need to work why continue?

 

[38Chevy454]

Thanks for your comments!

We are already "FI" it is the RE portion that I have some mental gymnastics to get through.

You just need to get the emotional part of retirement done. You have the numbers you want (that is what FI means), so your issue is a psychological hurdle and not a logical one. I understand the OMY, it is a big leap and for many there is not a way to get back into the same level and salary as you leave.


Quick question, do you have outside activities or hobbies you want to spend more time on? The old saying is you have a job to retire from, but you need something to retire to.

 

[mrfeh]

If you're gonna be quitting soon, what's the point in pushing things?

And for what it's worth, I've never understood why some managers feel the need to make more than the people that report to them. It's entirely possible their skills demand higher pay than yours.

 

[Ronstar]

If I was OP, I would retire if I had enough $ to retire and something to retire to. If not, I'd ask for a raise stating your case (why worthy of a raise and not because others make more $). Then accept the company's reaction while you get yourself ready to retire.

 

[big-papa]

I'd put together a FIRE plan of my own that is not triggered by small adjustments to my salary for my last year or two of work. You're letting indecision and the OMY tail wag the FIRE dog.

Do you want to retire now or not? Are you mentally and financially ready to retire? Are you allowing a minor issue with your job impact you to an inappropriate extent?

Try to keep your personal emotions/feelings out of the plan. For example, if a few months from now you're retired because you pushed for the pay raise hard and they declined and you walked off the job or gave short notice, that doesn't mean "you showed them!". It means someone else called the shots for you.

If you want to work OMY, would making 10% - 15% - 20% more during that one year impact your FIRE plans significantly? If so, you're cutting it way too close financially and I wouldn't push too hard. If not, then it sounds like you're fully prepared financially and shouldn't even consider OMY. But, of course, it sounds like you don't really know what you want to do and want to let a pay raise for your final year (or not) chart your final course.

Was thinking similarly - There are a couple of variables here. Would getting a salary increase push out when you plan on retiring in a meaningful enough way that you can end up with a noticeable increase in your post retirement spending? Otherwise, if you're already close to being set and ready to retire, then why bother with it?

I have my own specific case where I plan on retiring this year. We're in the middle of our annual review cycle and I couldn't care less what my raise might or might not be. What I do care about, though, is the returns I'll get from ESPP, our 2021 bonus that will be paid out this quarter, and a number of RSU's that are vesting this quarter. Together they do indeed move the needle enough to wait the few extra months for.

Cheers,
Big-Papa

 

[Dtail]

Sounds like it is time to go. On the RE part, how many posts have you seen on this site relating to being bored in retirement. There are so many possibilities.
One never knows what their health will be down the road.

 

[RetiriusMinimus]

my perspective is what's your timeframe to retire? 1- 2 years? it 3-5? how old are you? do you have highly marketable skills? what's the workload like? can you hang a consulting shingle? what's the odds of any layoffs? i've worked for some very large companies and small ones. if you're under 2 years to exit, and the environment isn't toxic, and you can "cruise" from "9-5" i'd stay and maybe pick up some side gigs.

i'm in a situation where "technically" i could retire running the numbers using 4 different models. but given stock market outlook (some believe major correction) i'm holding on in a very toxic/comedic work environment.....the only other thing keeping me going are RSU with an aggressive vest schedule that will plug the "gap" of where i'd like my starting assets to be at time of retirement.

in the meantime i've been thinking of standing up a "shadow" consultancy. i'm taking on a couple of small, highly fenced pro-bono projects to build up references. once i'm done with that i'll stand up the side business with a small global network of former colleagues...

 

[armor99]

I'd put together a FIRE plan of my own that is not triggered by small adjustments to my salary for my last year or two of work. You're letting indecision and the OMY tail wag the FIRE dog.

Do you want to retire now or not? Are you mentally and financially ready to retire? Are you allowing a minor issue with your job impact you to an inappropriate extent?

Try to keep your personal emotions/feelings out of the plan. For example, if a few months from now you're retired because you pushed for the pay raise hard and they declined and you walked off the job or gave short notice, that doesn't mean "you showed them!". It means someone else called the shots for you.

If you want to work OMY, would making 10% - 15% - 20% more during that one year impact your FIRE plans significantly? If so, you're cutting it way too close financially and I wouldn't push too hard. If not, then it sounds like you're fully prepared financially and shouldn't even consider OMY. But, of course, it sounds like you don't really know what you want to do and want to let a pay raise for your final year (or not) chart your final course.

I would tend to agree here. If you are that close to retiring, does it really make a difference?

 

[Markola]

I found that it was difficult to advance in compensation by staying at one organization; and I found that once my direct reports and myself became unhappy about compensation, it was tough to deal with mentally. Usually, the only way to really move up was to take a different job, either somewhere else or, if your company is big enough, internally.

 

[zekeboz]

Not sure about other industries but in Big tech (likes of FB, Apple, Google et al).. its not uncommon for engineers to make more than their managers. Also in these companies, IC and Management are usually separate tracks for moving up as well.

Right but this is not the case for me. I held a similar position to the folks that I manage and in fact have to wear multiple hats in this role which involves similar tasks to my reports.

 

[zekeboz]

You just need to get the emotional part of retirement done. You have the numbers you want (that is what FI means), so your issue is a psychological hurdle and not a logical one. I understand the OMY, it is a big leap and for many there is not a way to get back into the same level and salary as you leave.


Quick question, do you have outside activities or hobbies you want to spend more time on? The old saying is you have a job to retire from, but you need something to retire to.

Salary at same level = Agree. It would be hard given age to come in at the same level.

Hobbies = Yes! I have a number of non work activities that I like to do. Classic putter that is always starting a new project, over the past 5 years, installed a solar system, mini split, patio, garden fence etc.. Next couple of years, a ERV, another mini split, storage shed, hot tub. The list never seems to end.. ;-)

 

[zekeboz]

Was thinking similarly - There are a couple of variables here. Would getting a salary increase push out when you plan on retiring in a meaningful enough way that you can end up with a noticeable increase in your post retirement spending? Otherwise, if you're already close to being set and ready to retire, then why bother with it?

I have my own specific case where I plan on retiring this year. We're in the middle of our annual review cycle and I couldn't care less what my raise might or might not be. What I do care about, though, is the returns I'll get from ESPP, our 2021 bonus that will be paid out this quarter, and a number of RSU's that are vesting this quarter. Together they do indeed move the needle enough to wait the few extra months for.

Cheers,
Big-Papa

Some really good points. I think the part that is annoying me more than anything is my willingness to be a 'company man' over these years and not speaking up early on vs. waiting 7 years on this. So in some way I created the issue by being 'fine' with the crappy comp. raises. At the end of the day if I get additional $$ I most likely not see all of it ince I will be out before the year is up. The only thing that I would want to vest is the 401k match which I will most likely meet by the end of this month.

 

[zekeboz]

I was a highly compensated employee for my role in my last several years of employment. I was top-ranked in my annual reviews and definitely considered a star performer. I knew that I earned more than my peers and certainly more than the younger generation coming in to replace me. I also was making more than my direct manager. In fact, my Director (2 levels above me) told me I was the highest paid in the entire group. However, this company did not necessarily give annual merit pay raises. And often promotions didn't really get much of a raise. For 10 years in a row, I did not get a raise, while being told that there was limited money for raises and that money needed to be given to those earning lower amounts to "bring them up to equal levels".

I did not like this, but I made a very good living and knew that I was also probably making about the max I could get should I change jobs. But still, one likes to get a raise now and then.

Finally, after 10 years of this and having enough, I documented my pay raises with the company (I'd been there 18 years at this point) and also documented what inflation alone had done to that earning power. I presented that to my Director and told him I wanted a $15-20,000 per year raise to at least partially cover what inflation had done to my income value. He said he fully understood and supported me getting a raise. But, in his usual non-commit style, he said he would have to "work this through the channels" and that would take time. I made my request 3 months prior to the end of the fiscal year so that he could time it with the new compensation period.

I never brought it up again, however, as the days, weeks, months passed, I grew more and more disgruntled with the situation. Finally, after 11 months, my Director calls me and tells me that he had to wait for his bosses to initiate approvals for several highly-paid employees to get merit raises. They lumped them all together into a proposal to senior management to get them approved. He was very happy to tell me that he got me a $6,000 raise and it would be effective at the beginning of the new compensation period (still a couple months away).

He wanted to know if I was happy. After a pause, I told him "to be honest it seems like a bit of a knife in the back considering I asked for at least $15,000 and I documented how inflation alone had set me back twice that". He said, he understood, but that was all there was available.

Hanging up that call, that was when I made the decision that I owed the company nothing and that I was going to start the countdown toward retirement. A date that I alone would choose. I basically checked out from my employment and only did work that was required for me to keep my job. For the most part I did nothing above and beyond the call of duty. My direct boss knew exactly what was going on. I was quite honest with him.

Six months later, I gave my retirement notice. The same Director called me and asked me to give them a year's notice because that's what others had done for retirements. I told him he had 6 weeks. I should have given 2 weeks.

I should have made a stink about it earlier or left the company. But it was easier to stay put. But I have no regrets on asking for the raise. I doubt I would have gotten the $6,000 had I not done that.

So @PaunchyPirate this post really hit home. Your story is close to mine in that it is a little scary..! Even the initial raise number is the same! I am 50/50 on what the co. will do with my request and would not be surprised if they just threw an additional 1-2k. I did not highlight your inflation scenario since I knew in my case it would never ever happen BUT it was something that helped push me to realize I was getting screwed over these years. I do have the exact same mindset that you went through,

I basically checked out from my employment and only did work that was required for me to keep my job. For the most part I did nothing above and beyond the call of duty.

for the past couple of years. I still do a good job but the days of checking email over the weekend or off hours is over.

 

[pb4uski]

...What would you do…? ...

Well first, if I understand your post correctly they are asking you to be both a worker and a supervisor but paying you roughly the same as the other workers who you supervise?

I would tell than that I need to be compensated more if they want me to continue leading these 8-10 folks... if not then they can appoint one of the other 8-10 to manage the group for no additional comp and I'll downshift into a non-supervisory role for my current rate of pay. If they insist on the status quo then...

 

[Born2Fish]

So @PaunchyPirate this post really hit home. Your story is close to mine in that it is a little scary..! Even the initial raise number is the same! I am 50/50 on what the co. will do with my request and would not be surprised if they just threw an additional 1-2k. I did not highlight your inflation scenario since I knew in my case it would never ever happen BUT it was something that helped push me to realize I was getting screwed over these years. I do have the exact same mindset that you went through, for the past couple of years. I still do a good job but the days of checking email over the weekend or off hours is over.

If you are at that point and are already FI, then I say take the bonus/profit sharing and give them a 2 week notice once it's "in the bank".