Have you ever felt humiliated for looking "poor"?

[Khan]

I enjoyed it actually, especially with the '85 Chevy pickup truck that is now a family legend. Bought it new and kept it for 18 years, only selling it because parts were getting hard to find. The paint was peeled, surface rust on the cab, roof, and sides, it looked like something from a Jeff Foxworthy picture joke. But everything worked.

But it sure made it easier to get large packages home, including a living room couch on sale one time. I had a good photo but can't find it now.

One BIL still has his '72 Ford F-150.

I bought a new econobox (hatchback) in Feb '89; I replaced it in Jun '07. Like you, I couldn't get parts (the stick shift was getting extremely sloppy and the folks at the garage couldn't find replacement parts).

Folks at work made jokes about my car; didn't bother me a bit. They're still working.

Concerning feeling humiliated: I'd say, looking back, that one of the best financial decisions I ever made was buying a house in a blue-collar neighborhood. No Jones' to keep up with.

And to the OP: you have to take that ego and stomp it flat. It will trick you and sabotage your plans.

Something I like from Buddhism: the idea of detachment. I don't believe in reincarnation and I don't seek to attain enlightenment. But I have attained retirement.

 

[FIREd]

Part of it is also what is in your head. Dad is a blue collar guy with a GED who made good as an entrepreneur. But since he always drove big, older Detroit metal and came home dressed in overalls, etc., I grew up not thinking about or worrying about status. I suppose for that reason I do not fell entirely comfy in expensive areas, high end hotels, etc. (restaurants an exception): its not my bag and I don't belong in these places.

Maybe you are right. I grew up in a wealthy city where people are very aware of social status but I also used to spend my summers at my grand-parents' farm where people don't care about it. I like both worlds equally. The main thing was that the two worlds were very distinct from each other and never intersected. So I can effortlessly blend in with the rich or the poor as long as I "look" the part. I feel as comfortable talking to a rich person about their latest donation to the art museum as I am talking to a farmer about crop rotation.

But I do feel very awkward when the two worlds meet. I feel uncomfortable being either underdressed when surrounded by rich people or being overdressed when surrounded by poor people. My house is a bit the same way. It's quite plain on the outside to blend in with the rest of neighborhood, but inside the decor is a lot more upscale in certain parts of the house. If I invite people who I know would feel uncomfortable in an upscale decor, I tone it down (we either eat in the kitchen or on the patio, I use everyday china with stainless silverware, I make a 1-2 course meal). If on the other hand I invite people who I know are more upscale, then I crank it up a notch (we eat in the dining room, use white linen table cloth, antique sterling silverware, crystal, good china, 5-8 course meal, etc...). I am comfortable with both and they are both parts of who I am.

But again, when the 2 worlds meet, that's when it is a bit uncomfortable. A few years ago we had invited my wife's boss for dinner. I knew they lived in a big house, in an executive neighborhood, drove expensive cars, so I went upscale. The guy showed up in his PJ pants...

 

[Sarah in SC]

My mom has her ego all tied up in how people treat her--because she grew up just outside a small town and the "town girls" were snobby. 50 years on, she's still reliving it.

I try really hard to avoid this trap, and I think it has a lot to do with small town v/s more egalitarian surroundings. My DH also grew up in a small town and there was a keenly felt sense of "less than" the rich folk. I remember the time we went to some party back home that was held at The Country Club that was so far out of his reach as a young man. DH was startled to discover it was a ticky-tacky fake Swiss chalet prefab that wasn't "all that". Funny how perspective will grow with time.

I like being used as an example--boss had a young guy in the office the other day, trying to talk to him about debt, and he asked if I would mind being a good example. I walked in the room, and boss says "Here's Sarah, she's the one driving the really old car out there in the parking lot with the headliner hanging down, and a bumper sticker that says what, Sarah?" And I say "it says Debt free and loving it!".

For the record, last night DH put up 4 thin strips of wood (think Conestoga wagon) to hold the headliner up, seeing as how the boss mentioned it.


I think that because I grew up in a more randomly demographic area (like Brewer lives in now), that I don't have as much of a problem with this sort of thing as DH, who fights it a lot. He also wouldn't drive the 1984 pickup truck with the "Squat & Gobble Restaurant" bumper sticker on it to a job interview, either. Elitist!

 

[FIREd]

That happens to me too.

A few years ago I was at Ikea and people kept asking me all kinds of questions as if they thought I was working there... I looked at my wife and I was like, what the...? And then I realized that I am wearing a horrible blue and yellow shirt (a Xmas gift) and that happened to be Ikea's corporate colors...

 

[TromboneAl]

Sometimes I'd like to be an example of "LBYM and you can retire early and enjoy life." But worry that, by looking poor, people will perceive it instead as "They retired early, but now they don't have enough money."

 

[Walt34]

For the record, last night DH put up 4 thin strips of wood (think Conestoga wagon) to hold the headliner up, seeing as how the boss mentioned it.

I had to do the same thing for the '85 Chevy!

This was my retirement present from me to me, '03 GMC. (DW got a new car too, hers was 14 years old & also falling apart.)

 

[FinanceDude]

Several years ago, I had on my "weekend relaxed look", and was walking around in downtown Milwaukee. A nicely dressed man handed me a $20 bill and said: "go get something to eat, you look hungry". I protested, but he walked away. So a few blocks later, I saw a homeless person sitting on a park bench, and gave him the money........

True story, but it made me think I may need a little upgrade to my wardrobe........

 

[W2R]

Was there sniper fire?

Probably not, but at this point it's anybody's guess!

 

[CuppaJoe]

So SO and I are leaving the track with our winnings neatly hidden away. It was a long walk to the bus stop but we were almost there when a carload of teenagers started heckling us: "Look at them, they lost all their money and have to walk, yeah, they had to sell their car and take the bus."

Psst, Wellesley in the Third, to show.

*****
What do we care what a bunch of kids think? Imagine, they took us for people who recently owned a car, which means we have a lot of latitude yet to dress down, I’ll buy that option.

 

[FANOFJESUS]

Things are not as they seem

Once I went to look at a home for sale. The guy pulled up in a 25 year old car with old clothes on. I did not know if he was the renter or the owner and this was in the poor end of town. I looked at the home but I was looking for one that needed less work. When I told him that, he no problem I own 80 more. I looked at another home and made a low offer, he said you are as cheap as me. He said it was hard for two cheap guys to come to a price that they both were ok with. I knew form that time on, that it would me that was doing the learning. It turns out that he owned 80 paid for homes, his own being an average one of the 80 of them. When I talk to my suburb friends they would comment about the poor end of town. The picture of the old man always came to my mind I knew he could buy the BLOCK they lived on with cash.

 

[CuppaJoe]

....
But again, when the 2 worlds meet, that's when it is a bit uncomfortable. A few years ago we had invited my wife's boss for dinner. I knew they lived in a big house, in an executive neighborhood, drove expensive cars, so I went upscale. The guy showed up in his PJ pants...

Reminds me of the stories about William Randolph Hearst keeping catsup on the table at San Simeon.

I think you are right: never the twain shall meet. It's particularly bad for the poorer folks when they do meet. I know so many people who want their kids to know poor kids; bad idea, IMO.

 

[youbet]

I would say that DW and I were able to overcome the weakness of feeling "humiliated for looking poor" 15 years ago or so, about the time we were on tract to reach FIRE. It's really a blessing to not be burdened with that problem any longer.

Since then, we sometimes dress, act or speak to be congruent with the situation we're in, not to avoid "humiliation" but rather just to expedite dealing with people by not giving them a reason to be distracted from the issue at hand. That is, if looking or acting out of place is going to throw folks off and make it difficult for us to do business, get service, etc., we'll generally go along with the program and dress and act to fit the circumstances. This isn't to avoid feeling "humiliated." It's just to not waste time dealing with the consequences of seeming to be out of place.

Example: When car shopping in 2005, I wanted to go take some test drives and talk to some dealership service managers to supplement reading and internet research. Rather than leave the house in my normal threadbare state, I changed to nice dress slacks and shirt (business casual), put my checkbook and pen in my shirt pocket clearly visible, and headed for the dealerships. Got lots of quick, courteous service including disruptive trips into the service department and multiple test drives. Probably would have never happened had I looked and acted like I was just stepping in off the street to warm up! So, in the ten minutes it took me to change, I probably saved hours by having my requests politely accomodated.

If there is nothing in it for me, I could care less, make no accomodation to "standards" and NEVER feel humiliated. Been there, done that, got past it!

 

[W2R]

Example: When car shopping in 2005, I wanted to go take some test drives and talk to some dealership service managers to supplement reading and internet research. Rather than leave the house in my normal threadbare state, I changed to nice dress slacks and shirt (business casual), put my checkbook and pen in my shirt pocket clearly visible, and headed for the dealerships. Got lots of quick, courteous service including disruptive trips into the service department and multiple test drives.

I dressed like a hobo (nearly) when buying my Solara in 2002. I looked the salesman in the eye and told him that I was going to buy a car that day either from him or from the Honda dealer and that I really didn't care which. I got lots of quick, courteous service, too, a low price, and some freebies. Maybe it was just luck, in my case.

 

[ladelfina]

so I went upscale.

FIREdreamer.. yeah, THIS is the rub. I was asked by an English lady here for gift suggestions for an 80-y.o. acquaintance who was "very rich". My thoughts ran to cashmere and twee estate jewelry, after jocularly bypassing tea cozies. And I realized that the richer the person the more we feel it incumbent upon us to offer gifts more in line with their pocketbooks than with our own. One case is my well-to-do doctor BIL, to whom we gave (spontaneously) an oil painting and an expensive gas grill. Needless to say we haven't spent as much on others in the family NOR have we received ANY gift from them whatsoever!

Anyway, I am the only person who puts out actual ceramic dinnerware and metal flatware for get-togethers. Our rich acquaintances put out plastic plates and forks!

This is just mulling over past situations.. it's not because I am "striving" to fit in to any group, but when I think about it, my past experiences jibe with those of youbet. Dressing the part a bit does help grease the wheels.

I guess those of us with one foot in each camp (like me and FIREdreamer) try to target the "comfort zone" of those above and beneath us, financially. Probably human nature at whatever level.

Sarah and rec7.. great stories! Thanks!

 

[FIREd]

Been there, done that, got past it!

So there is hope for a cure for people like us! But I must say that despite a few embarrassing situations, we have never compromised our FIRE ideals (by spending more) to try and fit within the rigid mold imposed by society. So I believe we are on track for recovery! And as you pointed out, I feel the closer we get to FIRE and the easier it's going to be.

But I am struck at how so many people on this board have succeeded in tuning out the outside world's expectations. Maybe it is simply the secret to FIRE!!!!

 

[youbet]

I dressed like a hobo (nearly) when buying my Solara in 2002. I looked the salesman in the eye and told him that I was going to buy a car that day either from him or from the Honda dealer and that I really didn't care which. I got lots of quick, courteous service, too, a low price, and some freebies. Maybe it was just luck, in my case.

Yeah, sure it could work for ya..... Remember, I wasn't going to buy a car that day and just wanted to be accomodated with multiple test drives and tours of service departments........ It's just hypothetical, but I feel in some circumstances it's easier to get what you want if your appearance and mannerisms aren't out of place for the circumstances you're in. On the other hand, sure, you could wind up getting good service and having your requests accomodated sometimes even if you seem very out of place.

It's just the circumstances. When I'm grocery shopping, by my appearance the cashier must be expecting me to pull food stamps out of my wallet! But, the grocery store is not a place where you normally expect more accomodating service by tidying yourself up, so I don't bother. And, believe me, I don't feel humiliated!

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

In the mean time, some people are staring and making fun of us, commenting that people like us (meaning "poor" people) should not buy a TV like that. Some stupid guy in a suburban kept pointing at us and laughing.

i can hardly imagine anyone doing that to anyone else. first i'd check myself to see if it was just my own paranoia. then i'd check my car to find something to throw.

Another humiliating moment, was last Easter. We were invited at my wife's boss for Easter dinner and they had invited their neighbors too. One of the neighbors told me that the week before he had called the cops on a kid who was collecting money for charity door to door because he drove a Honda Accord 2004 which did not fit in "this kind of neighborhood" (I wish he was kidding but he was not). My wife and I looked at each other wondering if we should go park our jetta out back before he called the cops on us...

maybe i don't understand what you are trying to say with this part of the story but it doesn't sound like a situation to throw food. if the other guest called the cop on the idiot kid, doesn't that mean he has no problem with someone driving a 2004 accord. (as if there ever could be something wrong with a 2004 accord anyway.) sorry, but i don't see the humiliation here. perhaps you are being too self-conscious?

 

[flipstress]

...Their "regular" clothes may be modest, but they usually go to pains to keep them clean, ironed, stain- and rip-free.

This keeping-up or maintenance of clothes was big when I was growing up in Manila. My mom and grandma were fussy about clothes being clean, ironed, and in good repair.

When I came to the US, I escaped from all these upkeep tasks because people didn't seem to care--at least the people with whom I associated. Of course, in the 80's at work, dry-clean suits and dresses were the thing but on the weekends, anything was fine. When she first visited me, my mom was a bit aghast about my "sloppiness", and it took her a while to adjust over the next visits to going out without being dressed up.

I used to be embarrassed not about looking poor but about being actually poor. I went to university with kids from rich families, kids whose dads were Supreme Court judges, factory owners, surgeons. We lived in Tondo, known for its slums and gangs. We weren't in the slums but just across the road from our house were squatters in their shanties. I did not fit in at university business school and did not have many friends. Looking back, it wasn't totally snobbishness on the part of my classmates--I was shy and quiet and felt that I had nothing to talk about with them.

Now, I am still poor but I am not embarrassed about it, but of course, I don't know and don't hang around with truly wealthy folks. I suppose I would be intimidated by wealthy people, probably feel a combination of awe and wonder and at the same time would feel judgmental about how much they spend on what I would consider to be non-essential. I don't know if it's related to feudalism, but the culture or at least the family I grew up in was wowed by wealth, most times regardless of how it was obtained or amassed. So I have that in me--the awe--but then I also have the judgment of "they should be using their money more wisely, more charitably", for example, they should be doling it out to me

Like others, I also really like youbet's tip on dressing appropriately to not distract or detract from the purpose of the event or meeting, to dress so one does not stick out, unless one wants to anyway like when going to a party, celebration, or out dancing.

 

[haha]

The things people assert on this board often amaze me. There is nothing more sure in social life than the fact that others estimate your status in whatever local subculture is most salient, and treat you accordingly.

It is equally sure that this treatment matters to the treatee- he may be acutely aware of discrimination, he may assert force of will and blow it off, he may tell himself that his "indifference" is a sign of his innate superiority-that he is "plain people" full of inner virtue and hidden wealth, not a showy debt ridden consumer, etc. But unless he is not a primate, it matters, deep in a part of his brain that he may not even monitor very well.

These are rationalizations, and they take mental energy. But they are necessary rationalizations, as we must have ways to stay comfortable while living on much less money than others with whom we come into contact, otherwise we wouldn't be able to stay the course and save the money to FIRE, which for most of us is a transendent goal.

This board has various functions, but I believe one of them is to serve as an alternate social group that helps maintain self esteem when we are giving up so many of the usual signs of social status.

I remember a few times as a young father and husband when I realized that I had likely taken this cheap thing too far, and that my farmer ancestors would have been annoyed at me for not putting on a better face when I was able to do so. It can cost your kids, and it can cost your wife, if she is not as fully invested in finally achieving self supported laziness as you are.

Ha

 

[FIREd]

i can hardly imagine anyone doing that to anyone else. first i'd check myself to see if it was just my own paranoia. then i'd check my car to find something to throw.



maybe i don't understand what you are trying to say with this part of the story but it doesn't sound like a situation to throw food. if the other guest called the cop on the idiot kid, doesn't that mean he has no problem with someone driving a 2004 accord. (as if there ever could be something wrong with a 2004 accord anyway.) sorry, but i don't see the humiliation here. perhaps you are being too self-conscious?

Wait a minute, checking myself for paranoia.... No not particularly paranoid...

For the second part of the story: A kid was going door to door to collect money for charity (he even had a city license to do so). The guy called the cops on him because he didn't like his car (that's exactly what he told me) and he thought that somebody driving a car like that in his neighborhood must be casing the joint... Am I the only here to be completely outraged by his reaction (I think most people around the dining table were)? Why would you call the kid an idiot by the way? because he was collecting for charity?

So the point was, now my 2001 jetta is parked a stone throw away from his Mcmansion. If he thinks that a 2004 Honda is not good enough for his neighborhood, then when he saw my car he must have thought that the barbarians were descending on his neck of the wood. That's not humiliating, but rather embarrassing to be clearly told that you don't belong in this neighborhood because of the car you drive (even though you know that financially you could easily afford to live there)...

 

[FIREd]

The things people assert on this board often amaze me. There is nothing more sure in social life than the fact that others estimate your status in whatever local subculture is most salient, and treat you accordingly.

It is equally sure that this treatment matters to the treatee- he may be acutely aware of discrimination, he may assert force of will and blow it off, he may tell himself that his "indifference" is a sign of his innate superiority-that he is "plain people" full of inner virtue and hidden wealth, not a showy debt ridden consumer, etc. But unless he is not a primate, it matters, deep in a part of his brain that he may not even monitor very well.

These are rationalizations, and they take mental energy. But they are necessary rationalizations, as we must have ways to stay comfortable while living on much less money than others with whom we come into contact, otherwise we wouldn't be able to stay the course and save the money to FIRE, which for most of us is a transendent goal.

This board has various functions, but I believe one of them is to serve as an alternate social group that helps maintain self esteem when we are giving up so many of the usual signs of social status.

I remember a few times as a young father and husband when I realized that I had likely taken this cheap thing too far, and that my farmer ancestors would have been annoyed at me for not putting on a better face when I was able to do so. It can cost your kids, and it can cost your wife, if she is not as fully invested in finally achieving self supported laziness as you are.

Ha

Very well said as usual.

 

[sarahsays]

Am I the only here to be completely outraged by his reaction (I think most people around the dining table were)? Why would you call the kid an idiot by the way? because he was collecting for charity?

No, I got what you were saying.
The fact that the McMansion owner was judging the kid (who's parents likely got him a throw away car in case he wrecked) while the kid was doing a good deed really shows McMansion's true colors...

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

studies have shown it works and that some people subconsciously are attracted to "lesser" people in order to boost their self-esteem.

interesting because i have a cousin who i know suffers low self-esteem but i never put that together with the types of guys she dates. she's a total fox who dates absolute dogs (the last one being a raging alcoholic). she once told me that she didn't date attractive guys because she didn't like the feeling of being swooned off her feet. (whereas i loved to be swooned and have only dated & partnered with the most magnificant men. swoon away.) she explained it as her method of maintaining control, but the esteem explanation fits better her character.

said she came in twice a week to buy the chickens--but that she never ate them, she fed them to her dog who seemed to enjoy them for a snack. You know, I just didn't feel all that good after hearing that.

i agree that you should have barked. but what you should have barked reason that would have awoken her to her own insensitivity. some people don't even have to work to wind up with a lot of money. but everyone has to work to wind up with a little class.

 

[W2R]

So the point was, now my 2001 jetta is parked a stone throw away from his Mcmansion. If he thinks that a 2004 Honda is not good enough for his neighborhood, then when he saw my car he must have thought that the barbarians were descending on his neck of the wood. That's not humiliating, but rather embarrassing to be clearly told that you don't belong in this neighborhood because of the car you drive (even though you know that financially you could easily afford to live there)...

In an ideal world, it should be humiliating to HIM, not you!!! He should be embarrassed to make such self-important, superficial judgments. But then he is your wife's boss, not someone that you would necessarily choose as a friend.

One nice thing about FIRE is that I will no longer have any reason to spend time with people that I find distasteful. My world will be my ideal world (at least to whatever extent I can make that happen).

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Wait a minute, checking myself for paranoia.... No not particularly paranoid...

then i would have thrown something. (you think i am making a scene with this box? you ain't seen nothin' yet.)

For the second part of the story: A kid was going door to door to collect money for charity (he even had a city license to do so). The guy called the cops on him because he didn't like his car (that's exactly what he told me) and he thought that somebody driving a car like that in his neighborhood must be casing the joint

sorry, i totally missed the point of that story. i thought the kid was collecting money so he could buy a better car and that's why the guy called the cops. but with this clarification, yeah, i'd have started a food fight. like i just said in my prior post, class takes work.