is there such a thing as OVER FRUGAL

[EricMD]

I've often wondered why we in the USA didn't set up the same kind of squares as the Europeans.  The people who emigrated from Europe were pretty much the people who designed this country.  The only thing I can think of is that the Europeans that came to this country were the ones that came to work and improve their lives, so they were more concerned with a work environment rather than a leisure-type environment.

is it me or what but i think in US, we don't have a strong sense of community and bonding. i used to live in an apartment complex. you can live there for years with OUT knowing anything about your neighbors, except to Hi and Bye. then we moved into a town house, almost the samething. everyone got their own friends from somewhere else once or twice every two months they got a gathering. then quiet again for a long time. May be noone want to socializing with us but i do believe they don;t socializing with each other either.

then we moved into a single house, even worse people are far apart, i only get see them when they cut the grass. Everyone mind the own "business". very very isolating. When i chat with my collegues at work. they are all bragging about how far AWAY their neighbor are. some guy even said "oh yeah, i got NO tricker treater in Holloween, Yup, 20 acre of land and 1 mile to see the next house. i am proud of it". What a strange world, the richer you are the less people you want to be around....

 

[TromboneAl]

Good fun too.

Yes, that's how I see it, too.  As long as I'm enjoying it, I don't have to worry whether I'm being overly frugal.

 

[SteveR]

I also think a lot of it has to do with how the city grew over time.  In Europe, almost all of the cities began as small villages and the center of all villiage life was the market and wells.  Also, many cities were also walled off from the surrounding conutry side for defence.  Over the centuries the walls were covered in buildings or removed and the city grew around it.  This "market square" or city center concept eventually became a de facto standard for cities.  This coupled with old narrow streets, lack of parking for cars and the fact that the cities grew slowly over time without having to be designed for transportation also contributed to the more close-knit nature of these cities.

In contrast, most cities in the US and other newer countries, were either planned from the begining like Washington DC or sprang up very quickly with a strong emphasis on transportation of goods and services into and out of the city.  Smaller towns began as isolated settlements or forts and continued to grow rapidly as the population increased.  The widespred use of the horse and then the car required extra space to allow better utilization of these transportation devices.  Cities required roads, railroads and eventually highways to provide better transportation capibility and movement of people from one part of the country to the other i.e., Gold Rush.  But, many smaller older towns maintained the town square concept and still do today.  This was lost as cities grew in size and the town square became the financial district.  

The decay of the inner cities caused many people who used to enjoy living in the inner city to depart for the suburbs and the creation of bedroom communities where, as was said before, the Mall replaced the market square.

Many US cities are trying to recreate this market square concept and with great success.  Many are now flocking back to the inner cities to live in apts. and condos newly created to meet these needs.  

Sorry about the PhD dissertation here. I guess this just hit a hot button with me today.  

 

[Spanky]

..i think in US, we don't have a strong sense of community and bonding.

I tend to agree since privacy and individualism are highly valued or sought after. People in the U.S. like to live in houses with fences and far away from their neighbors if possible. At work, people want to have private offices. Promotion is always based on individual merit while crying out for teamwork. In Hong Kong where I grew up, you had plenty of opportunities to chat with your neighbors and coworkers because of room sharing and open office space.

 

[justin]

The recent trend in shopping malls is to have an open air pedestrian mall integrated into their design. In the last 5 years we have had two major shopping malls opened in the Raleigh-Durham NC area that have this pedestrian mall that is open air and simulates the town square that we're talking about. It seems things have come full circle.

 

[playaman]

SteveR's dissertation is "right on."

There is a "new urbanism" in America now, though, that encourages the building of smaller (albeit still too big and decidedly unfrugal) homes close together, with front porches facing common parks.

My wife and I live in one of those communities -- 38 nice homes facing a common seven-acre park with lots of benches, a fountain, picnic area, etc.  It's not quite European, but people get out and walk, visit with one another, and enjoy being out-of-doors (even in the Southern summer heat of Memphis).

The other night my wife and I walked "the circle" (the one-quarter mile loop) around the park.  We chatted with one set of neighbors about watering our plants while we go to Texas for Labor Day, another set of neighbors about taking care of their cat while they go to Alabama for a few days, another group about the beautiful children they were pushing in carriages.  It  really was like a European piazza experience.

Most Americans opt away from "new urbanism," but I think it's great ... (just wish I wanted to retire in Memphis, which I do not).  Our European forefathers (and early American settlers who always had a courthouse square or the functional equivalent) knew what they were doing however that growth pattern evolved.

 

[moghopper]

Here is Chicago, it seems that some planner decided: "Make sure there is not one place to sit unless you are a paying customer!!!!!!!!!!" Honestly, there is no place to sit within the 6 sq. miles of downtown.

Bank One-JPM plaza / City Hall / Daley Center / 333 S Wacker / DePaul Center

I could probably come up with more if I sat and thought for a while.

 

[haha]

There are places in America with lots of out-door or semi-outdoor public space. I have lived in some; I always love it.

Sunset Strip from West Hollywood almost to Westwood Village. Broadway on Capitol Hill in Seattle. Venice Beach from Washington Blvd all the way north to the Santa Monica Pier. Parts of downtown Berkeley.

Overall, America was much more livable when I was a young man than it appears to be now. For one thing, many of the urban areas that offered that sort of life are so crime ridden that one has to do a sanity check when thinking about going there.

America has nice spaces, just mostly not public. Maybe semi-public, as in a hotel lobby or bar or an attractive mall. These spaces are somewhat easier for security to control.

I think the same goes for public transport. More people would ride if they felt safe. If more people rode, the schedules would improve. Then even more people would ride.

But most don't feel safe, so you only ride if you are desperate or poor or desperate and poor.

Pretty crappy overall.

As a sidebar, remember that our ER member and author Billy the Traveler once was chef at the Maisonette in Cincinnati? I think it was continuously given a Mobil 5 * rank for more than  40 years. Well, it recently closed. People no longer felt safe coming downtown for a late dinner. There may have been other factors too, but deterioration of the public space due to crime played a large part.

Haha

 

[OldAgePensioner]

moghopper,
I call all those spots future construction sites.  And I walked past most of those today.  Tell me where a person could sit down in Daley Center.  On the Picasso?  

Only the Water Tower Park has seats.  Deliberately made uncomfortable to discourage homeless.

 

[OldAgePensioner]

HaHa,
When I went to school ,Westwood was a great place. I would not venture into Westwood after dark these days. Gangs have taken over the place.

Washington Blvd or Venice Beach Blvd up to Santa Monica is wacko. I take people from the East coast there to get a laugh at the loonies. Last time I visted Santa Monica pier we left after 10 minutes. Fruits and nuts.

Though we can't change it now, it would have been nice to allocate city squares where people actually went to sit, have a glass of wine, enjoy the night air. If you visit Rome or Paris, go to the squares at evening and see what life could be.

 

[nfs]

Tell me where a person could sit down in Daley Center. On the Picasso?

You wouldn't be the first.

While you're in the loop, go to the Berghoff's bar and have a Weißbier for me, will ya?

 

[MJ]

Today about 7-8 young ladies were handing out McDonalds flyers for a $1 Double-Cheeseburger. And I ended up with 20-25 of them. So if I wanted, that's lunch for the month at only 25 dollars.

Yeh but how much will all that cholesterol cost you?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

nfs,
I normally just end up " sitting on a park bench, eyeing little ..., watching as the pretty ...... run"
OK, since I'm addicted to wheat beer, so I will go to Berghoffs and drink one.  But this is next to the last 199,000 times I do that.    Drinking my beer, hearing the train. Casey Jones you better watch your speed.... if you live in Chi you gotsta be noticin today is bleak.

MJ,
I went to the local party store and bought a Ronald McDonald costume and I plan to sell those free puppies out on the street.  "money for nuthin and chicks for free".  Maybe I'll sell them outside of Berghoff's.  Cool. Drinkin beer, sellin burgers.

 

[maddythebeagle]

Yeh but how much will all that cholesterol cost you?

25 bucks in burgers and 100 bucks in lipitor...

 

[OldAgePensioner]

maddy,
lipitor is an afrodeeseac as I recall. Worth $100 and I get a burger as a bonus.

Let's see, sex, burger and fries, could I get that super-sized? Wooohoooo,.l

I'm out early tomorrow lookin for the burger mamas.

Lake and Clark. Madison and Dearborn. Wacker and State. Roosevelt and LaSalle. Where are those burger totin wenches?

 

[Andre1969]

Really? Lipitor is an aphrodesiac?! I think that's one of the prescriptions my grandmother has...does that mean I need to go raid her medicine cabinet?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Andre, it has that affect on 20-22 year old women only. So I'm stealing all I can find.

Good luck on the raid! My granny could shoot an AK-47 pretty well so you are taking that risk. Can't use that thing if you ain't got that thing, doowapp doowapp

 

[deserat]

More ramblings on the European lifestyle thread:

the USA is HUGE compared to Europe - the distances between cites, towns, geographical areas make it difficult to compare. Germany is about the size of Ohio and Indiana---

While I lived there, one could walk between villages---the standard distance between villages was between 3- 10km - easily walkable. Out here in the western USA, the standard distance between the cities is 350m (~600km). Not easily walkable. Plus, people generally in the USA (especially in the west) weight individualism more than community leacity and town designs which might be more privacy oriented.

Bridget

 

[yakers]

Maybe its time to start a new thread about Europe/US public spaces, transportation and safety.
I grew up in Chicago, went to high school downtown (State St & Chicago Ave) and knew all the places to hang out downtown, lakefront & Old Town 35+ years ago. There was an interesting underground in Chicago including subways, train stations and Wacker Dr. Interesting space.
Now I'm in Southern California. The most public spaces are commercial either the better malls or places like Pasadena Old Town. This is a commercial district with plenty of restaurants (99 in a 6 sq block area!) movies and things to do. Police keep it safe and also keep cars from cruising. And there is now public transportation in Southrn Cal. The Metro works! Last year took the metro all the way from Pasadena to LAX to fly back to Chicago. Took over two hours but it cost only$1.65, was safe and car free. There are now shops and housing (and shops with housing over them!) being built along the Metro.
I also lived in London for over 3 years and loved it. I think we need to reclaim the downtown areas for public space. More housing, shops and public transporation. I thought it is interesting that the slums in Paris are in the surburbs not the central city. Maybe we are in a similar shift?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Yakers,
These days, State and Chigago has a McDonalds and a historic red brick listed building with a babershop on the north side. On the south corners, a parking lot and a bank. Catholic school just behind it.

There are public squares but only Water Tower has benches. The parks have places to sit but I walk State, Wabash, Michigan, Rush, Dearborn, Clark, LaSalle and Wells nearly every day. I rarely see any free spots to sit, it's all buy a meal to sit.

Olive Park on the lake has a few benches.

I take my fold out nylon mesh chair and go sit down below the Tribune building on the riverfront. Very nice.

All in all, I love Chicago. It would be great to have little squares with somewhere to sit and just watch the city life.

 

[Momtwo]

I am going to be visiting Chicago for a week soon. What should I make sure I see while I am there?

Momtwo

 

[saluki9]

I am going to be visiting Chicago for a week soon. What should I make sure I see while I am there?

Momtwo

Can't miss

Art Institute, Museum of Science and Industry, Cubs game. What kind of stuff are you interested in?

 

[OldAgePensioner]

Momtwo,
If you stay a week, you'll most likely not want to leave.

Here are some nice do's:
1. Cruise the lake on one of the tour boats from Navy Pier. Some fast, some open, some big but all give a great view of the city.
2. Catch at least one show in the theater district (State, Madison, Dearborn, etc) casual dress and great fun. Chicago Theatre (State St.)has lots of music performances.
3. A visit to Giordano's Pizza (Rush & Superior).  A 12" pizza is enough for 2 or 3 people.
4. Grant Park has concerts nearly every night. Great amphitheater. Seats/grass.
5. Go to either Sears Tower or John Hancock viewing floors for a great hi-rise view of the city.
6. Wednesday and Saturday at about 9:15PM the Navy Pier has great fireworks show.
7. Night features (eats and drinks) are great up on N. Rush at Walton or Delaware.
8. Find one of these joints to eat lunch. On Rush (J's Dawgs, Downtown Dog or Johnnies), on Clark (Dawg's and Burgers), on Ontario (Hot Diggity Dogs). Lots of these old style dives.  Great dogs.
9. Go to Oak St. beach for swimming.
10. Be assured that all public transportation in Chicago is cheap and safe.  Always put $2 into the ticket machines, it gives you a return within 2 hours.

And as Saluki says: A Cubs game! It will be a great memory.

I love this town.  DISCLAIMER: I only moved here in March.

 

[kayelem]

I love Chicago myself and would live there if not for the months of Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March!

My favorite thing to do is any of the Architectural tours. Last time we did a a bus tour of the University of Chicago area and south downtown including the Frank Lloyd Wright Robie house. The architecture boat tour is great also (just watch out for the Dave Matthews band tour bus).

Read "Devil in the White City" for a great historical remaking of the Chicago Fair and a nasty mass murderer at work during the period. Great book!!!

 

[moghopper]

And as Saluki says:  A Cubs game!  It will be a great memory.

On the other hand, if you like baseball, you'll need to go to 35th and Veeck drive.