Low NW FIRE

[RobbieB]

If you're happy, you're happy, if not you're not. Has little to do with spending dough. I've always been happy even when I had little dough.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

Eighteen hours in a coach seat? With three old Chinese women in the row behind me hocking loogies onto the floor every 30 seconds for the entire flight?

Sorry, I'll go First Class.

LOL< I almost threw up,. Yeah, I would pass on the snacks after hearing those loogies.

 

[Ed B]

If you're happy, you're happy, if not you're not. Has little to do with spending dough. I've always been happy even when I had little dough.

Amen

If I can replace content and at peace for happy then it doesn't cost me much. I am most at peace when I am at places like this with my small pack of little beagles listening to them trail a bunny. Certainly being content and at peace makes me happy but it is a different kind of happiness than genuine love from my grandkids, or a favorite college football team winning the Rose Bowl - which I was able to attend, etc. I plan to spend a lot of time on public land working with my little hounds and enjoying a lot of collateral cardio while enjoying the hound music and the gorgeous views in nature.

 

[Teacher Terry]

When I was married to my ex we had saved a million but somehow it all disappeared by the time we were divorcing. We only had a 100k to split plus house. In retrospect I should have hired a PI when I was still married to him to find the $ before he knew I was leaving. Anyways I can't dwell on it much or it raises my BP to much. My DH had a wife that gambled so left his marriage with nothing. So we both were starting over at age 44 but both of us are much happier.

 

[pj.mask]

Opioid use high in rural settings...like Seattle?


Seattle, King County set new record for overdose deaths

This article was about # of deaths, not %. It would make sense to have a higher # of people die in a high population density area.

I don't know if drugs are worse in cities or country but I have seen first hand the effects of living in the middle of nowhere and what the youths turn to for fun (alcohol is legal and therefore nothing wrong with heavy heavy drinking; drunk driving isn't really that bad either since there is nobody else on the roads)

I do think it is interesting in this thread where people say 'you should do what makes you happy' when talking about where to live or if/how to travel in retirement - yet there seems to be opposition (and laws) preventing people from (retiring? and) doing drugs. We can't all afford to live in California.

 

[Nemo2]

Returned to Canada, (age 46), ceased working, in January 1989 with ~$500k Canadian, (plus $25k Canadian in lieu of a pension, since I'd only been with the company for 13 years. This money was required to be placed in a non-accessible acount (until age 65) followed by mandatory deductions after age 71).

GICs (CDs) were paying up to/around 11.5% p.a. at that time.

My late wife and I purchased an almost completed 'spec house', fixed it up, ran a B&B for four seasons to pay off the improvements...went RVing after eight years, and I continued solo for two and a half years after she died, and until I met DW. (DW brought some money into the pot, but not a substantial amount.)

Currently have ~ 3.75 times the initial 'nut'. (This includes paid off condo townhouse.)

With Government Pensions, (SS type stuff), dividends/interest on the money we self-administer (we have ~$700k with a reputable mutual fund company that we don't touch, and any capital gains/divs/interest with them are automatically reinvested), we bring in around $50k Canadian annually....(this will be increased by ~$6,700 p.a. when DW's age related pension kicks in in November (she turns 65 next month)).


Average annual expenditure over the past 8 years is $33K Canadian, (this year it will hit, or exceed, $50k Canadian, because we did three back-to-back cruises earlier this year; we leave in a month for another trip, and have already placed a deposit on a transatlantic next year).

So...we live on less than we bring in...and are quite content.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Money does provide options...but as someone who has very little interest in material goods or expensive travel, I don't need to buy those options.

Either I'm lucky or I'm naïve...I'm not sure which one it is

There is a chart in the article below from a study that shows that money can buy happiness - if you spend it on what is important to you and matches your personality type. The only personality type of the five main types listed that had a high correlation to travel was extrovert:

Money CAN buy happiness - if you spend in the right way, according togroundbreaking Cambridge study

"People who spent more money on purchases which matched their personality were found to be happier, with spending in the right way mattering more than total income or spending."

Related article:

Materialistic People Are Less Happy Than Everyone Else
"Money can buy happiness, just as long as you’re not materialistic. "
Materialistic People Are Less Happy Than Everyone Else: Science | HuffPost

 

[dunkelblau]

Money CAN buy happiness - if you spend in the right way, according togroundbreaking Cambridge study

"People who spent more money on purchases which matched their personality were found to be happier, with spending in the right way mattering more than total income or spending."

So for neurotic people like me, their suggestion is to spend more on gambling and less on hotels. I suppose this means off-strip then? Is that like Palace Station? Or all the way to Reno? And I get an extra boost if I get pulled over (again) by CHP on the way back?

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

So for neurotic people like me, their suggestion is to spend more on gambling and less on hotels. I suppose this means off-strip then? Is that like Palace Station? Or all the way to Reno? And I get an extra boost if I get pulled over (again) by CHP on the way back?

OMG, too funny, I did some research on the Author , he is very prolific, maybe he needed to pay the rent and this was the best thing he could throw together that day for a paycheck.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

OMG, too funny, I did some research on the Author , he is very prolific, maybe he needed to pay the rent and this was the best thing he could throw together that day for a paycheck.

The study with the personality types was "conducted by PhD candidate Sandra Matz, from the psychology department of the University of Cambridge, in addition to Joe Gladstone and Dr David Stillwell, both from the Cambridge Judge Business School."

The link to the other study has pretty much similar conclusions to every other materialism study out there. You can Google materialism and happiness and see what pops up for that.

 

[someguy]

Thanks for an interesting angle on this. I had a lot of the same frustrations you had and I dedicated a portion of my time to identifying and removing the work stuff I hated and then the stuff I disliked. Ultimately, I have been able to remove 95%+ of the stuff I hate and perhaps 80-90% of what I dislike. And each year that passes gets me closer to perfect. I consider myself fortunate.

As far as retiree work as an exercise replacement goes, at my current age even an aggressive lawn mowing isn't nearly the workout I want (need?). When I finished mowing the lawn, I felt no real sense of satisfaction whereas when I run or cycle or play sports, I do. Especially if I shave a few seconds off, add a few tenths of MPH, or win.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, I think of FIRE as being ultimately about freedom and having to mow the lawn (or fix the leak or whatever) is usually a pretty rigid schedule. It feels like a chore or a honey-do item -- exactly the opposite of freedom.

If you like being outside, why not run outside or cycle outside instead of inside?

I was fortunate to be working in a specialized field that paid good money, and I was good at what I did too. Although I really enjoyed my work (it would be hard to be good at what one does if he does not like it and devote a lot of time to it), the corporate red-tape, idiocy, and jealousy took a lot of the fun out of it. I finally called it quit when the money and the fun work did not add up to enough to cancel out the above aggravation. I had my price, and if they paid me more, I could have done OMY or TMY. These guys probably later realized that I was pretty cheap for what I did for them, but it's all over now. But I digress...

I always do stuff around the house, and more now that I have time. Yes, I can pay somebody to do it, and I do when things are beyond my physical ability. But I need to do something to stay physically active (I cannot be traveling all the time), and having some job satisfaction is an important aspect too. I am not the kind of guy to spend hours on a treadmill or an exercise bike. I will go out to work in the yard, or do some home projects.

So, all what you call "retire work", saving money is not the only reason people take it on.

 

[tuckeverlasting]

Then there are these folks, as seen in today's Washington Post (follow link for rest of article):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-1213pm:homepage/story&utm_term=.79a1b8aa0c23

The New Reality of Old Age in America

By Mary Jordan and Kevin Sullivan
Sept. 30, 2017

Richard Dever had swabbed the campground shower stalls and emptied 20 garbage cans, and now he climbed slowly onto a John Deere mower to cut a couple acres of grass.

“I’m going to work until I die, if I can, because I need the money,” said Dever, 74, who drove 1,400 miles to this Maine campground from his home in Indiana to take a temporary job that pays $10 an hour.

Dever shifted gently in the tractor seat, a rubber cushion carefully positioned to ease the bursitis in his hip — a snapshot of the new reality of old age in America.

People are living longer, more expensive lives, often without much of a safety net. As a result, record numbers of Americans older than 65 are working — now nearly 1 in 5. That proportion has risen steadily over the past decade, and at a far faster rate than any other age group. Today, 9 million senior citizens work, compared with 4 million in 2000.

While some work by choice rather than need, millions of others are entering their golden years with alarmingly fragile finances. Fundamental changes in the U.S. retirement system have shifted responsibility for saving from the employer to the worker, exacerbating the nation’s rich-poor divide. Two recent recessions devastated personal savings. And at a time when 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every day, Social Security benefits have lost about a third of their purchasing power since 2000.

 

[Teacher Terry]

There is a whole thread dedicated to this and many people's empathy is under whelming.

 

[Major Tom]

There is a whole thread dedicated to this and many people's empathy is under whelming.

I thought the same. While there are certainly people who start out in life with poor money managing habits, and turn themselves around through application and hard work, my suspicion is that, for many of us, our attitudes towards finances are less the result of conscious choices, but more because of tendencies and inclinations that are "baked" into us from an early age. I have always spent a fair amount of time thinking about money and how to get the best utility from it; it just came naturally to me. The saving and investing I did in order to ER wasn't that hard to learn. I was already interested, so the many hours I spent reading wasn't hard work at all - I enjoyed them.

I know it's not a representative sample, but many of the people I know who have trouble managing money have underlying emotional issues* that I believe to be the cause of their poor financial habits. Just as I saved and invested because it was my default natural mode of behavior, the folk I know who struggle with money do so because it is also what comes naturally to them. It is for these reasons that I dislike the way of thinking that leads people to pat themselves on the back for their "prudent choices and hard work", while professing to feel no sympathy whatsoever for those who "made their beds and now have to lie in them".


*In truth, I think one of the factors that made it easy for me to save money and delay gratification was also underlying emotional issues. Self-denial can be a powerful tool when one has the desire to squirrel money away!

 

[Teacher Terry]

MT: yes many things contribute to the inability to save. Bad things happen to people also and the one woman had 40k in her 401 and it went down to 2k by the time she retired I think by bad management by the company and not her. Sometimes people panic and sell when stocks are low. It makes people feel good about themselves and superior to others. In reality, many things are outside of our sphere of control. I also think this site has many more engineers, etc then teachers, social workers, etc. That can definitely influence attitude towards others.

 

[Nemo2]

the folk I know who struggle with money do so because it is also what comes naturally to them.

Without going into details, there is a younger couple (30s) with whom we are 'affiliated' (for want of a better word). She does contract work whenever she can obtain it, and he is on the mend from a medical issue........I sat with him about 8 months ago and discussed his situation as best I could; he talks about 'the company holding a position for him', and, (since due to his health he will be unable to return to his old job), I asked him what else he could do with them.......turns out the answer is nothing.

(I suspect, because I'm cynical, that the company is aware of this, and once his Workmen's Compensation is exhausted and he's declared able to return to (some kind of) employment, they'll cast him adrift.)

Finally I'll get to the point....they fritter money (that they don't have) away as if they've won the lottery, and have no discernible worries about the future. We worry about them but they don't seem to worry about themselves.....they had a kind of Fund Me after he was incapacitated, we and numerous others contributed, and next thing they're 'off here and off there'.

What can be done? Nothing, I fear.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I bet is makes people mad that contributed that they are using the $ to have fun instead of for bills. Some people truly don't get it.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

MT: yes many things contribute to the inability to save. Bad things happen to people also and the one woman had 40k in her 401 and it went down to 2k by the time she retired I think by bad management by the company and not her. Sometimes people panic and sell when stocks are low. It makes people feel good about themselves and superior to others. In reality, many things are outside of our sphere of control. I also think this site has many more engineers, etc then teachers, social workers, etc. That can definitely influence attitude towards others.

+1. Vets with head injuries, crack babies, clinical depression - there's all sorts of reasons people can be poor through unfortunate circumstances. I saw a couple of Ted Talks recently about teens with antisocial behavior, which made it hard to succeed in school or work. One had traumatic brain injury from a fall as a baby (which wasn't linked to his teenage behavior initially) and the other one had a brain cyst.

Sure we know people who don't have any retirement savings through poor planning despite good incomes, but I don't think that is the reason everyone is poor or unprepared for retirement.

 

[imoldernu]

What Major Tom and Teacher Terry said.
Would love to add to it, but don't have the words to do better.

Empathy, humility and knowing oneself... not what you are, but who you are.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I spent 24 years helping people with disabilities go back to work. I loved the job and heard a lot of sad stories. Most were not the person's fault. I now teach a social work college class about disabilities. Before that I was a social worker. We would have blue collar workers get hurt and then they can't work and they were making good money. They use up all their savings and then sometimes would lose their house and maybe their marriage as a result. Some could be retrained but imagine if you are not very smart, didn't like school, etc, but good with your hands and now that is taken away. So you end up with a crappy paying job and you can kiss your previous lifestyle goodbye forever. Another story is a young doctor that has massive student debt and then has a severe head injury. He can only do menial work now. His identity is tied up in his previous profession. He will never be able to pay off the student debt.

 

[Sunset]

..... my suspicion is that, for many of us, our attitudes towards finances are less the result of conscious choices, but more because of tendencies and inclinations that are "baked" into us from an early age. I have always spent a fair amount of time thinking about money and how to get the best utility from it; it just came naturally to me. The saving and investing I did in order to ER wasn't that hard to learn. I was already interested, so the many hours I spent reading wasn't hard work at all - I enjoyed them.

......

I only have to look at my sibling, to see how even though we grew up in the same family, and our parents treated us pretty equally, there was a big difference in the saving vs spending attitude.
I would eat my Halloween candy a few pieces per day, my sibling ate everything in a couple of weeks.
Same for allowance, we both got the same allowance, and I'd save for something, or spend just some of it, my sibling spent it all each week.

This carried on to adulthood, I have retirement savings, and my sibling has ZERO.

I always felt secure if I had a couple of thousand in the bank, knowing I could cover pretty much any expense that would crop up. I guess that is my character weakness.

My sibling can't seem to leave any money in the bank unspent....

 

[Major Tom]

I only have to look at my sibling, to see how even though we grew up in the same family, and our parents treated us pretty equally, there was a big difference in the saving vs spending attitude.

A similar thing happened in my family. I'm afraid I don't like to go into much detail about my family and personal life in online forums, but my experience of family has been that no two members grow up in exactly the same circumstances. Families change over time, as does the relationship between the parents. Kids born a few years apart can experience the same parents in quite different ways. Even with kids who are very close in age, nothing is completely equal, despite the best efforts of the parents.

I have 3 siblings, and although we all had the same parents, each of us grew up, effectively, in a slightly different family. Our parents were frugal, but we each have distinctly different spending and saving habits, from very good to fairly atrocious

 

[marko]

I only have to look at my sibling, to see how even though we grew up in the same family, and our parents treated us pretty equally, there was a big difference in the saving vs spending attitude.
I would eat my Halloween candy a few pieces per day, my sibling ate everything in a couple of weeks.
Same for allowance, we both got the same allowance, and I'd save for something, or spend just some of it, my sibling spent it all each week.

This carried on to adulthood, I have retirement savings, and my sibling has ZERO.

I always felt secure if I had a couple of thousand in the bank, knowing I could cover pretty much any expense that would crop up. I guess that is my character weakness.

My sibling can't seem to leave any money in the bank unspent....

Read an article long time ago about a study on being able to predict criminal behavior (not that it implies to your sibling).

Seems that kids who'd rather have a small candy bar today rather than wait for a much big one tomorrow were more likely to eventually head to crime later in life.

Again, 'crime' is a big word but 'immediate reward' vs delayed is more the operative.

 

[MRG]

I spent 24 years helping people with disabilities go back to work. I loved the job and heard a lot of sad stories. Most were not the person's fault. I now teach a social work college class about disabilities. Before that I was a social worker. We would have blue collar workers get hurt and then they can't work and they were making good money. They use up all their savings and then sometimes would lose their house and maybe their marriage as a result. Some could be retrained but imagine if you are not very smart, didn't like school, etc, but good with your hands and now that is taken away. So you end up with a crappy paying job and you can kiss your previous lifestyle goodbye forever. Another story is a young doctor that has massive student debt and then has a severe head injury. He can only do menial work now. His identity is tied up in his previous profession. He will never be able to pay off the student debt.

When I was in the sawmill we used to get temporary worker's for general labor. A good percentage of guys were homeless or about to become homeless.

If they were good workers we'd ask for them to come back. After a while you got to know the people.

Obviously some were in denial, other folks did take ownership of the situation.

The biggest lesson I took away was "there but for the grace of God go I". One good whack on the head and your whole world changes.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

I have 3 siblings, and although we all had the same parents, each of us grew up, effectively, in a slightly different family. Our parents were frugal, but we each have distinctly different spending and saving habits, from very good to fairly atrocious

+1. It is a very odd thing, I was talking to one of my sisters, and she remembers a very different home life than I did. Since she is considerably older than I, Im in no position to see if she is accurate in her memories. But they are her memories and I guess how she remembers things are true for her and what shaped her.

I do know she is somewhat wrong in memories that are recent. She recently told me she had no idea my mother sold her house till 2 days after our Mom moved. The house was sold in 2 hours in June, Mom moved mid November. I reminded her of our phone call concerning Im the only one "Stuck" packing up Moms belongings for the move and could use a hand. She didnt recall that, I then tried to get out of the twilight zone and remind her that her husband called me to say mom was selling her house too cheap. She didnt recall that either. Her husband did recall that phone call, and he had gotten that info from her, so it did take place.

We do share some core savings habits, they are in the 8 figure club, they bought over 4 million dollars of property in the last 2 years just in homes for their newly married children. Like me she still cuts out coffee coupons for the weekly shopping.