Texas Proud
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- May 16, 2005
- Messages
- 17,268
Just glancing though all 168 posts, this is what I extracted for TP and ERD50. Some comments can easily be interpreted as mean spirited, others go back to the standard "why should I have to pay for other people's pensions" line and others are just condescending. The fact is that the federal system is not broken, it's fully funded and not running out of money and, since 1984, it has been far less generous than in the past. Yet you keep attacking federal wages and salaries without any basis other than "it's not what we get and we don't want to pay for it." Again, I have not commented much on state and locals as they are as different as potatoes, granite and sea water - meaning it's pretty much impossible to draw any firm conslusions for them as a whole.
This is another example of condescension that appeared in #167- "We would need to raise salaries as much as it takes to get qualified people. Then we KNOW how much we are paying. It will take us closer to knowing we are not over-paying (in total compensation). It's far more transparent. If we are unwilling to pay for it as we use it, we should be unwilling to accept the service. It's unethical and unsustainable to say "I want those police, teachers, street pavers" or whatever, and then say "but I want them to be paid for by someone else, in the future"."
But we all know that's not going to happen. We do want someone else to foot the bill fo their benefits in the future. And we do want the services from them now, and we want superior services. Why do garbage men get more money than teachers in some areas? Because they can - it's backbreaking work, in all climates and weather and many people will not do it no matter what we pay. So, if your choice is to not hire garbage men and have your garbage taken away because they are too expensive, then what do you do? Haul it yourself - that's not really an option in most places. Yet most teachers receive fair to middling salaries and the only really good thing they have going for them is their benefits.
Not only will I not apologize, but I'll push it further - it' clear that there are some people here who have a very dim view of public employees period. This argument is simply the tip of the iceberg. And what does it all go back to?? That they chose another path in life, and now, when the bill comes due for all the services they have gotten over the years, they don't want to pay it.
Here are the quotes (there are more, I just got tired of reading them):
TP - #43 - why can you not change it now Federal law only says you can not give less than what is already earned... so, we change it now for everybody... then people have to choose if they want to continue to work or not...
Some people will continue to work, but their DB amount will not go up any.. but they will not earn any less than the formula says they would get when the change occured... it has happened to a lot of people in the private sector...
TP - #44 - And my point would be.... their is a salary that would have convinced someone with your skill and rank to stay in the military... without a 'generous pension' (now, learning from Nords, the pension is not as generous as I had thought... but using your words for argument sake)...
TP - #53 - I also don't think there would be a mass exit of workers from the public sector if their benefits were reduced... as mentioned by someone else, a file clerk is already paid a lot more than a private file clerk without the pension... at the end of the day... we (in meaning the taxpayers) would have a true cost of our gvmt and then we can decide if we want to tax ourselves more to pay for it or live with less... as it stands today, even if we got rid of 100% of the workers, we would still be taxed to pay for benefits long into the future... or at a minimum be on the hook for any underfunding of the pension plan...
E50 - #102 - If you're mystified by the outrage, I don't think you've been reading the posts here. It's been explained ad nauseam.
E50 - #105 - What concerns me is when people try to play down the impact of these pensions on the taxpayers who need to fund them, and/or try to minimize just how good these pensions are relative to what the public sector gets.
E50 - #128 - Big difference between "getting even" or "envy" and resenting someone asking you to pay for what they have, esp when what they have is better than yours.
E50 - #157 - Wow, so it looks like most of the government employees get better pay, more security AND better benefits! I guess beowulf was right - he probably couldn't imagine the reactions from that article
E50 - #164 - The bigger issue is, these generous pensions were not funded, and now it looks like we (and our children) will have taxes increased to cover them if no adjustments are made. And this emphasis from current pay to future benefits makes the financial situation less predictable, and just pushes costs onto future generations. Generous pensions just are not good for our state finances. And, many of the people who will be asked to pay these generous pensions never had pensions this good and most of those were cut during their careers. So yes, they are not too excited about paying someone else's generous pension.
And again... you seem to be taking this personal... I am just stating what I think should happen.. if it affects your pocketbook, then so be it... I did not say that any of the workers were not doing a good job etc. etc.... I just said that AS A TAXPAYER, I want to know what I am paying for... and with these pension systems I do NOT know...
I have said time and time again... if we change it to where your pension is based on what YOU put in along with what was put in for YOU.... I have not problem with a pension system... the problem is that there are a lot of people who get a lot more than they ever put in (in total)... IOW, the cost of an annuity at the time they retire is a lot more than all the contributions along with any earnings...
You also use some of my posts incorrectly.... as an example.. #43 was in response to a statement that we can not change anything... but we can if we want... it has happened lots of times... will it happen probably not... but don't say that it can not...
Also, post #44 was in response to someone stating that a pension was a deciding factor in staying in the military... I said that there would be a salary that would do the same thing... so why have an unknown cost to keep this skilll when we can have a known cost to keep it...
I don't see how #53 is mean spirited.... I just used the arguments of some against them... the argument usually is 'why don't you take a gvmt job if the pension is so great'... so all I said was let's take the pension away and see how many people leave... probably not many... how is this mean spirited? Just a stmt of my opinion...
As has been mentioned... most of the people that I know that have gvmt jobs would have accepted these jobs with the pay they are receiving... the pension did not have much influence on their decision.. and I got 4 people in my family that worked in gvmt..... how many do you have besides yourself