The Case against Retirement

[Midpack]

Maybe he means that they want to keep working so they don't go bankrupt, i.e. they need to keep working. It really is vaguely written.

I've seen this written about several times and the majority who say they want to work actually need to work. The number of boomers who don't/won't have the financial wherewithal to retire, even at a reduced standard of living, is extremely well documented - hopefully everyone here realizes same. Pensions and retiree healthcare have become scarcer and scarcer.

If you actually needed to keep working to make ends meet vs retiring, in a poll for example, would you be be more likely to say want or need? Put another way, if you're wording a poll, which would you expect to get more honest answers to, want or need? (Correct answer is want BTW)

Everyone wants to retire/retire early, but fewer and fewer will be able to in the decades ahead. In that respect, the article is hard to argue with.

 

[teejayevans]

It hasn't been a lot of fun though...living on a sailboat, fulltime RVing, living in foreign countries.

I assume you either missing a sarcastic smiley or meant "It's not like it hasn't..."
Because I'm not feeling sorry for you.
TJ

 

[Delawaredave5]

Those who can retire, do.

Those who can't, either make excuses or write articles such as this, IMHO ...

I agree. [-]Only possible way I'd work longer than I had to is if I could "downshift" to a half-time.[/-]

Actually scratch that...... w*rk s*cks...

 

[skyvue]

I don't know hardly anybody who loves their job so much that they are working there just because they want to. Obviously there are some professions where this is more likely as mentioned above. For instance, if I were lucky enough to be a professional athlete I would not want to retire. Some R&D types I know are exceptions because the R&D work is what they are passionate about. In other words, they get paid to work on their hobby.

Can't think there are many people working for Corporate America in a middle management job (like me) who aren't looking forward to not working? I would rather do just about anything.

 

[traineeinvestor]

I do know a few people who keep working at a job they don't really enjoy even though they don't need the money. In one case, the guy has a passion (possibly an addiction) for collecting antique Chinese jade carvings - he keeps working so he can keep collecting. I also know a few people who, in spite of being very wealthy, keep working because they are paranoid about inflation, higher taxes etc.

 

[hguyw]

And then there are those who find much of their work rewarding or gratifying, despite the usual hassles and BS. A minority, to be sure - some farmers, doctors, clergy, a few teachers and other academics, researchers come to mind. Not sure what the common denominator is, if any.

The only two people I've ever met who said they would do what they do, even if they didn't get paid, were both veterinarians. They loved their jobs and they weren't fresh-out-of-school newbies, either.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Another group where a lot of people I've met are happy is law enforcement. Like teaching and nursing, it pays too little but seems to hook good people some of whom really love the work.

 

[SecondCor521]

Another slightly different semantic slant on the original article's wording (I should disclaim that I didn't read the thing. My blood pressure was pretty low yesterday and I'd like to keep it that way.): "I want to keep working because I want all this consumerist junk in my life and I can't figure out a way to keep paying the credit card bills without a j*b."

Meh, maybe it's not any different. Never mind.

2Cor521

 

[TooFrugal]

I would want to retire early if I still had my megacorp job, but I like having my own business. I will be one of the people who won't fully retire until I'm no longer able to work any more. I like the income and the mental challenge.

 

[clifp]

What people say and do are very different.

One of my favorite answers "why would you retire so young" is to quote this finding of this study (I can't find the study on the net).

Percentage of Multimillion dollar lottery winner who said they intend to keep working 75%. Percentage of those who were still working 1 year latter 25%...

 

[GoodSense]

I can think of 3 people I know that would continue to work even if they are financially independent:

1. My voice teacher. He loves his job -- opera singer. I think he will continue to sing even if he doesn't need the money. But he probably wont' be travelling so much for auditions.

2. A good friend who owns her old real estate company. She loves buying and selling real estate, and helping others buy/sell houses. She was surprised when I told her I wanted to retire before 65. She said she never wants to retire. Of course she may change her mind when she's actually in her 60s, but I think it's possible since her dad is basically doing the same thing.

3. My father, who is eligible to retire but really wants to see his projects finished. He said it would take another 2 years or so. I think he is one of those people who are completely defined by their work. I certainly did not get any of his workaholic genes.

 

[intent]

I'm not a boomer (42), and I don't agree with much in the article (though, as many of you have noted, it's difficult to form much of an opinion on an article written so vaguely), but I can see the merits of working in "retirement."

Two factors would seem to me to make the difference between pre-retirement work and post-retirement work:

1. I wouldn't *need* the money, or at least not as much money as I needed before.
2. I could chose a job without any consideration of career goals.

With those considerations, I think work might feel a lot different. I wouldn't care if my co-workers were making more than me. I wouldn't be bothered if someone takes credit for one of my ideas. I wouldn't fear making a stand or taking a risk, because I wouldn't fear losing my job. Beyond all of that, I probably wouldn't even take a job that required me to make stands or come up with brilliant ideas (and they're only brilliant when they make the boss more money). I'd pick something that interests me and work at it until it doesn't interest me anymore.

Now, I wouldn't want to work full time, but a nice, easy, interesting, non-stress inducing part time gig ... I could see that.

 

[Rustic23]

There is no doubt that there are folks that would prefer to work for multiple reason, some just because they like it. There is an elected official in Texas that is in his 90's wife and kids passed away, and his work is now his life. He plans on running for re-election. However, these people really, imho, seems like the exception rather than the rule.

If you figure that the majority of Americans have less than a college degree, about 75%, than you figure most Americans do not fall into management, professional, or educators bracket. Some percentage of this group are most like small business owners and some of those certainly never want to retire. But I find it hard to believe that the average Joe would rather dig a hole in downtown Houston in the summer heat, than be retired and be sitting on a dock fishing in the same heat.

What I took away from the article is that 'not retiring' is the new pyridine. Now may be the new pyridine because the majority that need too, along with a minority that want too, will continue to work, but IMHO, it is not because the majority want to.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Forgetting the financial aspect of retirement, I don't think one should even consider retiring unless you have something to do to keep you busy. You have to have a second life, be it a hobby like golf or fishing, etc. or have the desire to volunteer your talent and service to help others. You can't just decide that you are going to retire because it's time, or it's the thing to do or because your wife wants you to. You better have a plan or you could go nuts. Many people go back to work for the sole purpose to reduce the boredom. I've been retired 21 years and have never missed work one bit. Got my hobies and now can't wait to get up in the morning and get going.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Studs Terkel said it better than anyone I've heard in his 1972 book, Working. He deals with the two seemingly oopposite sides of working: the degrading, destructive side and the side that is meaningful and nourishing. Mostly interviews with a group of people from all walks.

The Chicagoans in the group probably remember him. A great read.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

=
It hasn't been a lot of fun though...living on a sailboat, fulltime RVing, living in foreign countries.
.

I'm sure the writer would call what you did being a galley slave, living in your car, and being banished from the country.

 

[Katsmeow]

I actually know lots of people who would not retire and could. I am an attorney and the vast majority of over 60 attorneys that I know who are in good health (and some who aren't) continue to work. Some take on a more reduced role and work fewer hours others not so much. In my experience the vast majority continue to work. In fact, even after 30 years in the practice of law I can't say that I personally know any attorney who has actually voluntarily retired.

I think we can suggest a few reasons for this:

1. Enjoys the work. I know plenty of attorneys who love their work. They find it interesting and meaningful.

2. Lack of outside interests. Many are used to working very long hours and putting their practice first. They never developed strong outside interests or had to subordinate them to work. These are people who would be lost without their work because their work is also their hobby.

3. I would guess that for some they are used to power, prestige, making a difference...whatever you want to call it. I think they would see retiring as giving all of that up.

4. A feeling of not having enough money. Some of these people earned very high amounts of money. They have an inflated idea (IMO) of what it takes to retire. I was talking to someone a couple of years ago and he told me his number for retirement was $5 million. He wouldn't even consider it for less than that. Some just can't imagine a lifestyle that didn't require that kind of nest egg.

 

[LARS]

Maybe it's just the nature of my job, but I see too many people in financial (and other) misfortune every day for me to feel smug about their need to keep working. There's a story behind each one, often worth hearing.

But for the Grace of God...

 

[harley]

Well, personally I WANT to work, even though I've been retired for 3+ years. I'm one of the majority. I'd be working right now except I'd have to get dressed, and I'd probably have to get up before 9. Plus there's that interview thing. And having to show up every day. Not to mention the really crappy attitude I have about people telling me what to do and when to do it. And they certainly wouldn't pay me enough to have to wear a tie. But other than that, I REALLY want to work. Seriously. I do.

 

[traineeinvestor]

I actually know lots of people who would not retire and could. I am an attorney and the vast majority of over 60 attorneys that I know who are in good health (and some who aren't) continue to work. Some take on a more reduced role and work fewer hours others not so much. In my experience the vast majority continue to work. In fact, even after 30 years in the practice of law I can't say that I personally know any attorney who has actually voluntarily retired.

I think we can suggest a few reasons for this:

1. Enjoys the work. I know plenty of attorneys who love their work. They find it interesting and meaningful.

2. Lack of outside interests. Many are used to working very long hours and putting their practice first. They never developed strong outside interests or had to subordinate them to work. These are people who would be lost without their work because their work is also their hobby.

3. I would guess that for some they are used to power, prestige, making a difference...whatever you want to call it. I think they would see retiring as giving all of that up.

4. A feeling of not having enough money. Some of these people earned very high amounts of money. They have an inflated idea (IMO) of what it takes to retire. I was talking to someone a couple of years ago and he told me his number for retirement was $5 million. He wouldn't even consider it for less than that. Some just can't imagine a lifestyle that didn't require that kind of nest egg.

Hey, I resemble these comments!

#1 I used to enjoy it. I still like parts of what I do. But I like other things better and detest the hours.

#2 I have enough outside interests and a bucket list to keep me busy. I'm more concerned with the fact that the vast majority of my social life is connected to work related people.

#3 Some truth here, but I have no issues with giving up the corner office etc. Retireing early is more prestigious than staying in the work force.

#4 We have a budget for retirement and know how much we need to generate that level of income. Add a safety margin. When we hit that number, that's it. Time is more valuable to me than posessions. But you're right - I know too many members of our profession who just don't know when to stop. They may talk about it but they just don't do it.

I have to admit I cannot think of too many lawyers who retired on a voluntary basis. Most keep going until they get pushed out or reach mandatory retirement age or have health issues. Maybe I'll be setting a precedent.

 

[plex]

I actually know lots of people who would not retire and could. I am an attorney and the vast majority of over 60 attorneys that I know who are in good health (and some who aren't) continue to work. Some take on a more reduced role and work fewer hours others not so much. In my experience the vast majority continue to work. In fact, even after 30 years in the practice of law I can't say that I personally know any attorney who has actually voluntarily retired.

I think we can suggest a few reasons for this:

1. Enjoys the work. I know plenty of attorneys who love their work. They find it interesting and meaningful.

2. Lack of outside interests. Many are used to working very long hours and putting their practice first. They never developed strong outside interests or had to subordinate them to work. These are people who would be lost without their work because their work is also their hobby.

3. I would guess that for some they are used to power, prestige, making a difference...whatever you want to call it. I think they would see retiring as giving all of that up.

4. A feeling of not having enough money. Some of these people earned very high amounts of money. They have an inflated idea (IMO) of what it takes to retire. I was talking to someone a couple of years ago and he told me his number for retirement was $5 million. He wouldn't even consider it for less than that. Some just can't imagine a lifestyle that didn't require that kind of nest egg.

Well, I'm sure there are some other lawyers on the board who are seriously thinking about retirement at least. I remember a 41 y/o International lawyer posting he was retiring (wonder how that went, it was right before the 2008 fallout). And I have certainly seen some other lawyers post on here. But, this forum is certainly a concentrated collection of those who are interested in retirement. From my (very limited) experience, lawyers at medium/large law firms are much less likely to be thinking about retirement, or retiring early, but I did meet one at the place I worked. But, law firms, especially large ones, only makeup a fragment of the legal profession. There are also the small/solo practitioners, government lawyers, public interest, and in-house lawyers, which are all very different environments.

Edit: I was writing this before traineeinvestor posted!

 

[scrabbler1]

When I first switched from F/T to P/T back in 2001, I also switched to a mostly telecommuting arrangement instead of having to haul my sorry a$$ from Long Island to the office in Jersey City, New Jersey. At the time, I still liked the work and could do it from the confines of my own place. I did have to haul my sorry a$$ to the office once a week which was not fun but at least I knew after returning home that I did not have to go back there for another week. I also regained my personal life with outside hobbies and volunteer work.

In late 2003, my company did away with open-ended telecommuting. I could still work P/T but had to haul my sorry a$$ from LI to NJ 3 days a week to fulfill my hours. I knew at that time that this would become my eventual undoing, and I accelerated my planning towards an ER. This change also made it tough to maintain my outside activities when I telecommuted.

Besides the return of the horrors of a commute, even only 3 days a week, I also had to endure just being in the office more often. While I still liked the work (actuarial supervisor but with lots of computer programming, like an IT person within an actuarial division), that was beginning to erode over the next few years. By 2007, I could not stand it any more and asked to reduce my weekly hours from 20 to 12. This shedded one day a week of my lousy commute and got me out of the office at 5 PM instead of 6 PM, also helpful.

While it did ease my discomfort for a little while, it did not solve the problem - I still had to haul my sorry a$$ from LI to NJ more than once a week. The erosion of my liking of the work continued and the only way I felt I could solve this was to retire. By 2008, I was putting the pieces into place so I could retire. This included visiting a Fidelity advisor to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I had also been tracking a Fidelity bond fund (Focused High Yield) which could provide me with adequate income using the rapidly growing company stock (ESOP) in the retirement plan. I also found an affordable health insurance plan.

Once these pieces fell into place in late 2008, I gave them my notice and retired. I told the HR guy in my exit interview that I was sooo burnt out from the commute that even if they DID offer a resumption of the old telecommute deal AND allowed me to enroll in the group health plan (I was disqualified from it in 2007 when I switched to 12 weekly hours) that I would have rejected it anyway. The work I had at one time enjoyed was no longer enjoyable to me. The damage had been done. I had no choice but to leave and I do not miss the work one bit.

I can see how someone reading this might feel sad that something I once liked to do and got paid well for it was being rejected outright. I could very easily live on 12 hours a week. But the dang commute even two days a week was not just one day too many (versus my old telecommuting) but was now TWO days a week too many.

So I took the ESOP money (before the ESOP tanked for a while) and left. It generates nearly the same $$ as when I was working 12 hours a week!

No regrets.

 

[Katsmeow]

Hey, I resemble these comments!

#1 I used to enjoy it. I still like parts of what I do. But I like other things better and detest the hours.

I particularly agree with this. I don't hate my work. It is often enjoyable particularly on a day to day basis. The hours, well, not so much.

And, it is just that I can think of tons of other things to do. I was talking to my mother today (she is 85) and have mentioned that we are thinking of retiring in the not too distant future. She told me that when she retired (at normal age) she found it hard to adjust to because she kept feeling like she was wasting her time at home and felt like she was throwing away the money she could have earned. She has told me before that she gets bored. Me? I can't imagine feeling like I was wasting my time if I was retired. And I have a very long list of things I would like to do.

I do understand the throwing away money part of it since I do have a good earning capacity and it is easy to get sucked into just one more year syndrome....

 

[skyvue]

I think I may have stumbled on other reason while people continue to work when they don't need to financially while talking to an older peer at lunch yesterday. Bob is a 79 with 58 years in at our company! He is in a managment role of a small group of professionals that has largely been unchanged for the last 25 years. I mentioned this topic and forum and he told me the reason he continued to work was he didn't want to spend all day at home with the DW!

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I mentioned this topic and forum and he told me the reason he continued to work was he didn't want to spend all day at home with the DW!

Or maybe, just maybe, his DW couldn't stand having him hang around the house all day. Just sayin'....