The Case against Retirement

[Finance Dave]

Originally she was going to bail in January '09, at the age of 60. Then they threw a whole lot of money at her to get her to stay another year.

I think I'll tell my boss tomorrow I'm gonna bail.

 

[Kroeran]

Once money is no longer the issue, I think the key is paying attention to that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you wake up Monday morning vs Saturday morning.

For some people, in some jobs, those extra years going into the office may actually be richer than sitting around the house waiting for something to happen, and this is likely related to the quality of the people there and the level of imagination of the person.

If circumstances permit, taking very long breaks from the workplace to test your response to the reality of life without the structure of the office, rather than the fantasy, so that if you do pull the plug, you are as close as possible to knowing what you are getting into rather than taking a leap of faith.

We are heading down to Florida on Saturday for such a 3 week test. Have my clipboard and white coat and will be making observations throughout the testing period.

Its pretty funny watching all the type-A workaholics down there trying to learn how to relax and take bocci ball seriously.

 

[kyounge1956]

(snip)
If circumstances permit, taking very long breaks from the workplace to test your response to the reality of life without the structure of the office, rather than the fantasy, so that if you do pull the plug, you are as close as possible to knowing what you are getting into rather than taking a leap of faith.(snip)

My employer has a pretty good sabbatical policy. My problem is I don't know if I could get back in harness after taking a really long time off work. It's hard enough to go back after just taking last week off! I might use a sabbatical to scope out my future location and buy land there, then go back to the office for a couple of days to clean out my desk before I retire.

 

[Kroeran]

if you take a month or two and don't feel compelled to go back, you have your "reality-based" answer.

I guess that is the question to put out there....when does the vacation feeling end and reality set in?

How long should one be away from the office to really test your capacity for retirement?

 

[W2R]

if you take a month or two and don't feel compelled to go back, you have your "reality-based" answer.

I guess that is the question to put out there....when does the vacation feeling end and reality set in?

How long should one be away from the office to really test your capacity for retirement?

I took three vacations just before retiring, each about 2 weeks long and separated by about a week of work. It was wonderful, and cutting back on the stress that way probably made a world of difference in my mental and physical health.

But just as a vacation is immeasurably better than a weekend, retirement is immeasurably better than a vacation (for those of us who are not conflicted about retiring). It's just not the same.

 

[W2R]

While visiting my Mom and stepdad for Christmas, my Mom let it slip that she's putting off retirement another year. Originally she was going to bail in January '09, at the age of 60. Then they threw a whole lot of money at her to get her to stay another year.

They do that, because it costs more to hire someone and train the new-hire than to just continue with the status quo. First, senior management not in my chain of command tried to find out in "casual conversation" if I would be amenable to a promotion to stay, and I told him loudly with witnesses that my agency didn't have enough money to get me to stay. A few months later, my supervisor actually and literally asked me what it would take for me to stay... essentially inviting me to write my own check. My answer was the same. If a person gives in to that, they may make a lot of money but they may never retire.

 

[Kroeran]

I took three vacations just before retiring, each about 2 weeks long and separated by about a week of work. It was wonderful, and cutting back on the stress that way probably made a world of difference in my mental and physical health.

But just as a vacation is immeasurably better than a weekend, retirement is immeasurably better than a vacation (for those of us who are not conflicted about retiring). It's just not the same.

I wonder if there is a man/woman difference with this issue of some not being able to handle retirement.

While I see endless examples of heroic efforts and success by women in the workplace, my observation is that under that effort remains the primal hardwiring that values the home and friends and family above the ego games and competition of the office.

Although this is an oversimplification, in a sense, it takes a certain stupidity to continue year after year to place your chips on that one square of the craps table of life, and the irrational single-minded drive of testosterone for the corner office, and I would imagine that those of the female hardware model would be much more adaptable to giving that up.

My wife's mentor for transitioning into retirement is Ina Garten (Barefoot Contessa), who's career involved writing policy at the Whitehouse, owning a gourmet catering business, and now is a domestic goddess, albeit with an internationally syndicated television show that is filmed in her actual kitchen.

 

[roger r]

if you take a month or two and don't feel compelled to go back, you have your "reality-based" answer.

I guess that is the question to put out there....when does the vacation feeling end and reality set in?

How long should one be away from the office to really test your capacity for retirement?

I'm two years into retirement and it's aspects are still changing. There was a homeymoon period of a couple of months where honey-do chores were caught up, a little travel, and catching up with friends and relatives. This was actually followed by a brief period of anxiety where there seemed like too much time and to little to do. Finally, I settled into a routine, found some new challenges, and learned to relax much more. There is a Puritan work ethic that we've been driven to through out our schooling and career. In retirement some, like me, prefer to shed this perception and slow down. We're talking about changing 30 or more years of conditioning and it takes longer than a couple of months to adjust. Though this might give you a good taste of things. Others want to keep on going hard with new careers and pasttimes. For me it's been a fine new adventure.

 

[Alan]

They do that, because it costs more to hire someone and train the new-hire than to just continue with the status quo. First, senior management not in my chain of command tried to find out in "casual conversation" if I would be amenable to a promotion to stay, and I told him loudly with witnesses that my agency didn't have enough money to get me to stay. A few months later, my supervisor actually and literally asked me what it would take for me to stay... essentially inviting me to write my own check. My answer was the same. If a person gives in to that, they may make a lot of money but they may never retire.

Same here. They really do need people of my ability, experience and skills and would welcome a delay in retirement or me staying on part time or full time on contract. But I don't need the workplace to feel fulfilled.

 

[Meadbh]

I know someone who is a technical specialist in a very unpopular area of work. He was ready, oh so ready to retire. In fact, he did, and there was a party. He was blissfully happy. But they couldn't find anyone to replace him, and he was coaxed back "for a few months". It's now been "a year or two". He is looking quite depressed these days as he sees his fun years disappearing.

One more reason to move away when you retire!

 

[golfnut]

I remember back in 2001 where I actually quit a job (could not deal with the bs any longer). I was unemployed for about 7 weeks. The scary thing was how much I enjoyed those 7 weeks. I felt so relaxed - even some of my friends commented how relaxed I looked. It felt a little bit like the summer vacations while in school even tho I was 46 yrs. old at the time.
However, my wife got a little nervous after 4 weeks!

Hopefully, I'll feel the same way when I hang up the stirrups for good ! Hopefully, in the not-too-distant future ! Got a feeling I won't have any problems with being out of the rat race.

 

[NW-Bound]

... He is looking quite depressed these days as he sees his fun years disappearing.

Tell him to save that money for a big bad RV. He's got to have a goal to work towards.

 

[Alan]

I know someone who is a technical specialist in a very unpopular area of work. He was ready, oh so ready to retire. In fact, he did, and there was a party. He was blissfully happy. But they couldn't find anyone to replace him, and he was coaxed back "for a few months". It's now been "a year or two". He is looking quite depressed these days as he sees his fun years disappearing.

One more reason to move away when you retire!

Absolutely - in fact DW has had 2 companies around this week giving us quotes for a move. No way will I be tempted to stay on.

 

[Hershey102]

I'm two years into retirement and it's aspects are still changing. There was a homeymoon period of a couple of months where honey-do chores were caught up, a little travel, and catching up with friends and relatives. This was actually followed by a brief period of anxiety where there seemed like too much time and to little to do. Finally, I settled into a routine, found some new challenges, and learned to relax much more. There is a Puritan work ethic that we've been driven to through out our schooling and career. In retirement some, like me, prefer to shed this perception and slow down. We're talking about changing 30 or more years of conditioning and it takes longer than a couple of months to adjust. Though this might give you a good taste of things. Others want to keep on going hard with new careers and pasttimes. For me it's been a fine new adventure.

You hit the nail on the head. For males, the workplace is often our sphere of greatest social interaction and I suspect that fear the loss. When I retired two years ago, I remarked to a mentor that I would miss my coworkers. He suggested that I would stay in touch with those that I enjoyed, but would also make many new friendships. Pursuing hobbies (fishing, hiking) , volunteer work (hospice), and working one day a week for a cause that I love (animal shelter), has proven him right! I have made many new and exciting friendships simply by expanding my circle beyond my old job. Retiring was the best decision I ever made. Be patient and get involved in things that REALLY matter.

 

[kcowan]

...
My wife's mentor for transitioning into retirement is Ina Garten (Barefoot Contessa), who's career involved writing policy at the Whitehouse, owning a gourmet catering business, and now is a domestic goddess, albeit with an internationally syndicated television show that is filmed in her actual kitchen.

Ina Garten did not retire. She just changed how she gets paid.

 

[kcowan]

...There is a Puritan work ethic that we've been driven to through out our schooling and career. In retirement some, like me, prefer to shed this perception and slow down. We're talking about changing 30 or more years of conditioning and it takes longer than a couple of months to adjust. Though this might give you a good taste of things. Others want to keep on going hard with new careers and pasttimes. For me it's been a fine new adventure.

Many people are driven. When they work, they have action lists. When they vacation, they accomplish a lot. These people are not well-suited to retirement. They need to replace their need to achieve with another goal.

 

[ejman]

I took three vacations just before retiring, each about 2 weeks long and separated by about a week of work. It was wonderful, and cutting back on the stress that way probably made a world of difference in my mental and physical health.

But just as a vacation is immeasurably better than a weekend, retirement is immeasurably better than a vacation (for those of us who are not conflicted about retiring). It's just not the same.

I took a sabbatical in 1990 to try to decide what I wanted to do for the rest of my working career. What I discovered during my sabbatical is that I really enjoyed being on a sabbatical and my biggest career desire was to make it permanent. My planning then kicked into high gear for FI/ER so that I could actually do it - 7 years ago.

 

[Kroeran]

Ina Garten did not retire. She just changed how she gets paid.

yes thats true, though some of the facts suggest her show is a hobby that she happens to get paid for

but apart from that, it is more what her show represents in terms of fantasy and focus

home, food, husband, friends

if you look closely at how she talks about Jeffery, there is something going on there that you don't really see communicated elsewhere...in contrast to the pop culture norm being the representation of males as being stupid or abusive

and then there is the fact that you can't be a guest on the show unless you are a personal friend of hers in real life. Thats so weird, and at the same time contains a clue.

 

[metabasalt]

Studs Terkel said it better than anyone I've heard in his 1972 book, Working. He deals with the two seemingly oopposite sides of working: the degrading, destructive side and the side that is meaningful and nourishing. Mostly interviews with a group of people from all walks.

The Chicagoans in the group probably remember him. A great read.

I actually remember sitting next to him at a luncheon about 1984! And it was a pleasure since I'd spent my college years in Chicago and was quite fond of him. He was pretty much as you'd expect him to be.

 

[metabasalt]

I would love to retire but I see no way in the near future. The problem is affordable health insurance. I have BC-BS and it is good. I am of age to retire but not quite Medicare age yet. If I retired today I could keep my group insurance for the rest of my life. The problem is it would cost me $1349.00 a month .

We're in just about the same boat, down to the insurer and cost. But most likely we'll retire anyway. We have to pay a lot for insurance until Medicare but it won't wipe us out. For us it will be more psychological than anything else: why are we spending all that money when we'd get it for free if we kept working? And get additional salary and savings to boot! Well the answer to that, of course, is that our time becomes our own. I at first was quite worried about insurance. But when I saw the actual cost, as high as it is, it still seemed to me like a fair tradeoff - $1350 a month to be free! Of course we haven't yet retired. But I suspect it will be soon. And it will entail some sacrifices but I suspect that they'll be well worth it.

 

[kumquat]

[-]Citizens[/-] Residents of the US always mention health insurance costs as a problem for ER and some work because it's a employee benefit.

Here in the frozen north, anything your employer pays on your behalf (ie. health insurance) has its cost cost tacked onto your income as a "taxable benefit". That means you pay income tax on the employer portion. Does the IRS do the same thing?

 

[Alan]

[-]Citizens[/-] Residents of the US always mention health insurance costs as a problem for ER and some work because it's a employee benefit.

Here in the frozen north, anything your employer pays on your behalf (ie. health insurance) has its cost cost tacked onto your income as a "taxable benefit". That means you pay income tax on the employer portion. Does the IRS do the same thing?

Not on health insurance but they do on other benefits. For example we get life insurance provided no cost but get taxed on the benefit so it is not free, just very cheap.

 

[Kroeran]

[-]Citizens[/-] Residents of the US always mention health insurance costs as a problem for ER and some work because it's a employee benefit.

Here in the frozen north, anything your employer pays on your behalf (ie. health insurance) has its cost cost tacked onto your income as a "taxable benefit". That means you pay income tax on the employer portion. Does the IRS do the same thing?

wonder if there is a business model consulting on yanks moving tax residence to Canada and getting on our "free" healthcare.

spend 6 months plus a day (May to October) to qualify for provincial health insurance, then bugger off to Arizona for the winter.

there is no such thing as being excluded because of preexisting conditions

Alberta has no provincial sales tax, but is expensive anywhere near the oil industry.

there is some really pretty Colorado mountain type land on the western fringe.

these are the tax rates

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal


http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#provincial

http://www.50plus.com/Lifestyle/BrowseAllArticles/index.cfm?documentID=8569

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f29/advice-for-retiring-in-canada-from-the-us-14987.html