Trying to save MIL's financial life... should I bother?

[bssc]

As my father in law says "You can't enlighten the unconscious."

That reminds me of the joke:

Q: How many mother-in-laws does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None. They'll just sit in the dark and suffer.

 

[Milton]

Before giving up on her, I think it's worth writing her a letter that outlines the best and worst case scenarios and the choices that are hers to make. It might be helpful to have a document that she can reflect on later, perhaps when things are going the way you predicted, and when she is more ready to hear or see your POV. The tone of the letter should not be threatening but should make it clear that the outcome is her responsibility and that baling her out is not part of the FIREdreamer financial plan, because it doesn't need to be. If she doesn't believe you, she can get an independent review.

I don't see any upside to this approach. You've already made your point of view known, so there's no need to confirm everything in writing ... it's not like this situation is eventually going to wind up in court. And you don't need to justify your anticipated future refusal to provide financial assistance: that may well just get her back up ("I never asked you for anything, why would you even think that?").

 

[Bigritchie]

It never ceases to blow my mind, that people do not get the "be wise now" so you can "screw off the rest of your life"

 

[ladelfina]

But I think there may be another problem underneath. She feels like the divorce was no fault of hers and that for her to have to cut her expenses to the bone is unfair.

IMO this is the worst aspect of it by far. She feels she is already being made to suffer the loss of her partner, so why should she also have to suffer in other ways on top of that?? She needs psychological compensation. I would encourage her to get out and meet people (in low-cost social activities or volunteer groups)-- in a few years she may feel independent enough on other levels to not need the spending 'crutch' to define her life and assuage the pain. Who knows? She might even meet another companion and 2 can live more cheaply than 1... as they say.

 

[chinaco]

IMO this is the worst aspect of it by far. She feels she is already being made to suffer the loss of her partner, so why should she also have to suffer in other ways on top of that?? She needs psychological compensation. ...

Plus, if she has a lifelong habit of being a spendthrift, you have a low chance of convincing her to change. This probaby an ingrained pattern of behavior. Her past experience tells her that things will work out. She probably will not change until she is forced to do so (kinda like someone with a drinking problem or drugs... has to hit rock bottom and be forced to consider the impact).

In other words... you are unlikely to prevail by trying to reason or educate her. But, you will ruin your relationship with her since she will feel you are meddling in her affairs. I would let it go once you are convinced that she actually understood your financial pointers.

 

[bssc]

And if she meets another rich guy who is willing to support her spending habit, it will just reinforce that you were wrong. Life does take care of some people, unfortunately, I am not one of them.

 

[FIREd]

I have made it perfectly clear how her current spending spree will affect her future income (I used graphs and numbers that a 10 year old could understand). I showed her how her income will drop dramatically in 10 years if she keeps spending like she does now. I feel like I warned her enough as it is. To me it's clear she is in denial. But I have come to realize that if she does not care about her own future, why should I?

As her odds of finding a rich guy? very low. Do you know how many single women there are for every single man in that age group? Wherever she goes to meet people there is almost always a 10:1 ratio of women to men...

 

[bssc]

As her odds of finding a rich guy? very low. Do you know how many single women there are for every single man in that age group? Wherever she goes to meet people there is almost always a 10:1 ratio of women to men...

But people I know like that don't pay any attention to the odds. After all, they seem themselves entitled to be that one women who marries the rich man, not the other nine who don't.

 

[clifp]

Ben Franklin was thinking of your MIL when he came up with this pearl

Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.

Best of luck FIREdreamer we feel for you dude.

 

[2B]

She has a problem. You don't unless you decide to work the rest of your life to support her spending. She won't change and you can just give up to avoid further anguish.

In 10 years or sooner, she gets to live on her SS plus whatever she pulls out of her IRA. Based on her history, she'll drain it in about 3 or 4 years. Then she gets to find out who her friends really are. Since she can't run in the same circle anymore, I suspect she'll have a lot fewer friends.

The only real financial issue I see for you is how your wife will cope with Mom needing assisted living since she won't be able to afford it. If she's happy to see her live in a terrible situation until Medicade nursing care can take over, you'll do ok. Hopefully, she has a sibling that wants to take over Mom's care more than she does.

 

[Brat]

Maybe they should take out a LTC policy for her. If/when she needs care at least they won't feel obligated to contribute.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I've spent a couple of days now trying to figure out a good solution or a better way to put this, but...it aint coming to me. Probably because i've got a dose of it myself. My in-laws not only spend everything they get, they're up to their eyeballs in debt. FIL is on social security and partially disabled, MIL works but she wont be able to keep up with the rigors of the job for long. BIL also spends and is in debt. SIL has nothing set aside.

All have plenty of toys and are "spending it while they're young".

Realistically, you have no chance of changing the mindset.

Equally realistically, you might as well decide whether you feel like writing checks or which room she'll be staying in. At the end of the day, family is family and if the MIL runs out of cash, you'll be taking care of the results.

Its a tough nut to see how things oughta go and see people take real responsibility for their lives and their actions. Its how we all ended up retiring early or planning for it. Unfortunately that aint how most people think.

Maybe you'll be lucky and something will "work out"...

 

[bssc]

Well, at least you don't have the same name. Several years ago, one of the people who I sat next to in cube land had a spend thrift father. They had the same name except he was a Jr. I could hear him alternately trying to explain this to collectors and credit bureaus that he was not his father and getting mad at his father for not getting his (the father's) act together since was impacting his score.

 

[FIREd]

MIL already has a LTC policy. And next year she will qualify for Medicare which should lower her health insurance premiums and therefore give her a couple hundred dollars extra each month.
To be clear, I am a strong believer that family members should help each others when in need (I would without hesitation ask my mom/dad to move in with us if that's what she/he needed). But I also believe in personal responsibility. So I would be a lot less inclined to financially help someone who has consistently and knowingly made the wrong financial decisions and who then laid their problems at my door when they couldn't deal with them anymore. For years, I used to regularly bail my sister out financially but it's only when I stopped that she turned her situation around. I personally think that in this case tough love actually worked.
In my MIL's case though, I won't be the one deciding whether to help her or not, my wife will. And my wife does not believe that it is her duty to financially support her mom (and let's not even talk about my MIL moving with us, it would NEVER happen). Actually when my wife's grandfather died, her grandmother who was still in her fifties with no job, no skills and meager savings, had to take care of herself financially (she lived solely off of a very small income consisting of the dividends from her portfolio and SS). Her two daughers, my MIL and her sister who were earning very very good incomes at the time never proposed to help her financially. So if my MIL did not believe in helping her own mother, how could she make the case that we need to help her?

 

[old woman]

I would back of entirely, no reason she can't write her own checks and balance her own checkbook. As long as you do things you are responsible in some way, if she takes it over she may feel the spending more.
She is only 64 not old yet she can learn to take care of herself. Mom is doing it at 80, she can spend all she likes then if she is out of money she can reverse mortgage her house or move to some place cheaper.

 

[NinjaPigeon]

All the replies seem to be pretty consistent with what you've already decided. Now you just have to wait for the inevitable train wreck to happen.

 

[Joss]

"I not only take care of her financial planning, I take care of managing her checkbook, her EF and pretty much anything else financial (like I said before she has no clue)."

OK... so you handle ALL things financial for her and she's going to run out of money. And when she does, she will then agree that you were correct and blameless all along. And that she was an idiot all along. Uh-huh.

This, of course, is as opposed to her being talked into suing you for putting her into such straights. But that won't happen... because she wuuuuvs you soooo much, and besides it's "just not right".

Man I would back out of where you are like it's a snake pit. I would do it with a letter to her that lists everything you've said here. Not for her but for the record. I would not allow myself to be within MILES and YEARS of her final financial "adjustment" when it happens. And I DAMN sure would not be the one with her checkbook on my desk at that moment. You don't have to LOSE a lawsuit to be broken by it. Let her pay a professional to be the bad guy and get yourself out of it. You are too close and seeing firsthand why it's a mistake to do business with family.

 

[Achiever51]

I would back of entirely, no reason she can't write her own checks and balance her own checkbook. As long as you do things you are responsible in some way, if she takes it over she may feel the spending more.
She is only 64 not old yet she can learn to take care of herself. Mom is doing it at 80, she can spend all she likes then if she is out of money she can reverse mortgage her house or move to some place cheaper.

I agree. I would be worried that by managing her financial affairs now you might be on the hook later when the inevitable happens. I'd write her a letter explaining your concerns, then sit down with her and turn over her check book, etc. What else can you do??

 

[FIREd]

This, of course, is as opposed to her being talked into suing you for putting her into such straights.
Man I would back out of where you are like it's a snake pit. I would do it with a letter to her that lists everything you've said here. Not for her but for the record. I would not allow myself to be within MILES and YEARS of her final financial "adjustment" when it happens. And I DAMN sure would not be the one with her checkbook on my desk at that moment. You don't have to LOSE a lawsuit to be broken by it. Let her pay a professional to be the bad guy and get yourself out of it. You are too close and seeing firsthand why it's a mistake to do business with family.

Look, I don't write checks on her behalf (and I certainly don't have her checkbook), she makes her own transactions, writes her own checks, makes her own decisions as to what she spends her money on and I never, never sign anything in her place. Everything I propose in terms of investments, we discuss first, I make sure she understands it and then if she agrees she takes care of buying/selling it herself. I never represented myself as a financial professional, I never entered any written or verbal agreement with her, I never made any promises, I never profited from my own advice to her, and my name or signature never appears anywhere on her financial paperwork. So as far as I am concerned she's gonna have a hell of a time proving I am responsible for her situation if she goes bankrupt... of course if she still tried to sue me (and therefore my wife) then it is clear that she will probably finish her lonely days in a God forsaken nursing home sponsored by Medicaid...

 

[Achiever51]

Oops. I misread the thread and got the impression that you were more involved in her day to day financial doings. Sorry about that.

Still think you're in a "no win" situation here and have little recourse but to say you've tried, but now have to bite your tongue.

 

[Joss]

Uh... ok. My bad. Then you should continue to do just what you're doing. Preach to her so she can ignore you.

Am I telling you what you want to hear yet?

 

[FIREd]

Achiever and Joss,

I think that if you read some of my previous posts you will see that I have no intention to keep preaching to her. I've tried, I've failed, Let's move on. Whatever situation she ends up finding herself in, she'll have to deal with on her own. I think most people on this board agree that I am wasting my time with her. And there is nothing I hate more than wasting time...

 

[RunningBum]

I don't think you wasted too much time up to this point though. If you hadn't made an effort, you wouldn't have known whether you could've helped prevent the inevitable. And you also know where things stand and can prepare youself for it.

And who knows, maybe she'll realize it herself earlier than she would've without your input.

Sounds like you did everything you could.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Could this be a case for getting her to cash everything in and buy a single premium annuity?

 

[Achiever51]

Achiever and Joss,

I think that if you read some of my previous posts you will see that I have no intention to keep preaching to her. I've tried, I've failed, Let's move on. Whatever situation she ends up finding herself in, she'll have to deal with on her own. I think most people on this board agree that I am wasting my time with her. And there is nothing I hate more than wasting time...

Yup...Got it, moving on.