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Old 12-07-2020, 08:08 AM   #41
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I have been married 3 times and I'm currently in a new relationship with a very nice lady and she has her own business and assets + 0 debt.

I'm not too incline about getting married, but if I decide to make that decision down the road it will have to be with a prenup agreement. For those of you that have been through this situation before, are prenups good enough to keep all of my assets safe in case of some major "disaster"?

I got married for a second time at age 58 (7 years after retiring) with a prenup. All assets and income are separate property. I've been married for over 4 years and everything is working well.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:05 AM   #42
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Similar to Vacation4Us, I was the 3rd wife of my second husband. His first marriage lasted about 12 years and she broke it off; the second was a "rebound" one which was short-lived. My first ended in divorce. We dated 7 years before we married and it was a wonderful marriage. Sometimes you learn from your mistakes! He died 4 years ago.

I'm dating a good man now and we've cheerfully agreed we're not interested in remarriage or cohabitation.

I see two pitfalls with prenups. First, the state imposes obligations on married couples that a prenup can't negate. If a person who's got a lot of assets marries someone whose long-term care plan is "qualify for Medicaid" the wealthier spouse will be on the hook for LTC charges till they've spent down to a pretty low asset level (around $130K). Second, medical charges can be considered joint obligations even if the other spouse hasn't signed anything. I had a hospital try to attach my wages for unreimbursed medical expenses of my first husband when he was unemployed. (They were paid out of his share of the divorce proceeds.)

Second- my Grandpa remarried after Grandma died and they had a prenup- she had very little. I've mentioned the story before- first husband died and THEN she found he'd elected no Survivor benefit for his pension. Still, she coaxed Grandpa into spending on her- including sending $300/month to an adult daughter and "upgrading" her diamond engagement ring at their 5-year anniversary to something over 1 carat. (Mine at the time was 1 carat and hers was bigger.) Mom took over Grandpa's finances after Step-Grandma died and said that every time one of Grandpa's CDs renewed it was moved into her name.

The final money grab: after Grandpa died Step-Grandma's son surfaced and claimed that the proceeds of a $30K life insurance policy on Grandpa should go to them because Step-grandma had paid the premiums. She wasn't that practical and it would have been very expensive if taken out after they married (in their late 70s at the time). The family just gave up in disgust and handed it over.

Pre-nups can't protect you against everything!
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:12 AM   #43
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^ interesting!!! Some valid points you made.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:17 AM   #44
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We knew a lady that had been married 5 times. Two marriages were in her later years.

My mother asked her where she finds good husbands.

She said at the funeral home--when other wives die. If you don't get'em quick, they may get away. She was in her late 80's at the time, and quite a character.

And after all those husbands, she was very well off.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:21 AM   #45
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I don't see the point of marriage anymore. Marriages are so easily undone nowadays that the practice seems both antiquated and worthless in my eyes. So prenup or not, it's a no for me.
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Old 12-07-2020, 09:59 AM   #46
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This gives me pause-I am a twice divorced person and yet the second divorce was definitely not my choice while the first one was a mutual decision as we married very young and then only spent half of our married life in the same place (dual military does that). I don't want to think of myself as a 'loser' but I know that could be implied.
Early on in my 2nd Batchelorhood I learned that one, two and sometimes three divorces may not be a problem, and that I also had to consider length of the marriages. For example, one lady I knew was married 20+ years. Her husband took up with a younger gal, he would not consider doing anything to save the marriage so within a year she was divorced. It was a no-fault state. There was nothing she could do but get the best split of their assets she could manage. Then, on the rebound, she was married again in less than a year. That was a mistake on her part. He had substance abuse problems. She divorced him after two years. She is a lovely woman, financially independent and very attractive. She would be a good catch for any good man. Her first marriage proved she is good for the long-haul. Her second marriage proved she is human. My 2¢.

OTOH, if a person is married 5 years to Joe, 7 years to Pete, and 4 years to Sam, then I start to wonder. Again, just my 2¢.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:02 AM   #47
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A very top notch attorney once told me that all preconceptions aside, there is no such thing as a completely bullet-proof prenup if confronted by a good enough legal team. I tend to believe him, but either way it's irrelevant to me since I have no desire to marry again.
And almost 100% of attorneys will also tell you this of ANY contract.

DW and I have a pre-nup. The reasons are varied, but we both felt it was a wise idea. It has nothing to do with "loving" someone any more or less and we look at it as a insurance policy of sorts. As long as we are in love and living a blissful life, it sits and collects dust. However, in the event that it becomes "War of the Roses" it *could* help to alleviate some of the heartache, finance destructing, attorney enriching process that so many divorces include. So far in 11 years of marriage, I don't think it's been mentioned more than a couple of times...and that has been in conversation with friends about it. Of course, fairly early on in our dating relationship, we examined each others credit reports...so...

In a nut shell...I would NOT get married without one...and I would make sure it was drafted by someone who is competent and would damn sure make sure that the future spouse has an opportunity to have it reviewed by THIER own counsel. Oh, and this NOT legal advice.

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I was widowed and remarried. We keep all our stuff separate, so there is no problem. Even in a community property state, if the assets are not commingled, there should not be a problem.
Uh. This is NOT an accurate statement. There are protections out there for widows...even in NON community states.

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Regarding the enforceability of a prenup, we were told by several family and estate attorneys that in California it is very difficult to successfully contest a well executed prenup. In California, the standard for throwing out a prenup is that it be "unconscionable", or not have met some statutory requirement such as each side having their own counsel et. al. Now, if one of the parties is a billionaire, or one of the parties is being left with meager resources, the calculus will be different. But if a couple has a prenup executed properly with reasonable terms, it is very unlikely to be contested at all, let alone contested successfully.
This is good information. Obviously, states have differing rules and/or statutes but another *fairly* common requirement to enforceability is FULL DISCLOSURE of ALL ASSETS by BOTH PARTIES prior to execution of the document. If you forget to disclose that $400 savings account you opened 21 years earlier and simple forgot...that *could* be grounds to have it thrown out (probably not likely, nonetheless...).
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:05 AM   #48
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36 years married, married at 24 to the guy I fell in love with when I was 16. No prenup-we had nothing. I know long term gay couples who gladly married in 2015. The rights of hospital visitation, survivorship, pensions, inheritance, Social Security, two parent households are all impacted by the legal institution of marriage. Many long term gay couples have unequal incomes, and when one dies the other may literally have nothing.

Prenups apply when relationships end through divorce. Wills apply when someone dies.

Should I survive my husband, I would have no interest in marrying, and probably not cohabitating either. I think W2R's arrangement is ideal. But if I did remarry, there would be no mixing of assets, so a prenup would be a given.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:19 AM   #49
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(Me quietly commingling assets as DH is none the wiser....)
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I was widowed and remarried. We keep all our stuff separate, so there is no problem. Even in a community property state, if the assets are not commingled, there should not be a problem.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:24 AM   #50
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Why bother getting married again? Live together.
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Old 12-07-2020, 10:47 AM   #51
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I think they're agreeing to whatever the prenup's terms are, which could very well be generous.

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I

Absent any other arrangements, a poor person signing a prenup is agreeing to remain poor even after the death of the wealthy partner. This brings up an auxiliary question that could be lurking in the mind of the poor person: "If you really love me, you would be willing to make me rich after your death ..." Ouch!

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Old 12-07-2020, 10:54 AM   #52
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I don't see the point of marriage anymore. Marriages are so easily undone nowadays that the practice seems both antiquated and worthless in my eyes. So prenup or not, it's a no for me.
+1

For those like me who are not religious and do not intend to have children in the future, marriage has become essentially a financial arrangement. Since Frank and I are both perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves financially, it's a no for us, too. I can understand those who decide to marry for emotional reasons and reasons of commitment, but we feel just as committed to one another now as we did when married to our late spouses. I guess that's an individual thing. Then some people feel that being in this type of relationship without marriage is just plain wrong, and certainly that is a good reason for people who feel that way, to marry.

Living in New Orleans we know quite a few gays and some have married. Others (especially older gays) feel as we do and don't want to risk losing their financial assets, whether due to a divorce or while still married.

Here, it is illegal for hospitals to deny visitation to a significant other due to being unmarried, whether the couple is gay or het. We tested that out when Frank was hospitalized for severe chest pains a few years ago. (Turned out to be indigestion, but the doctors didn't know that at the time.)
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:02 AM   #53
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Sorry, but I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that you've been married 3 times in the past and you still have assets?

Mike
Yeah, I don't understand that either. After my second marriage, which ended in a very expensive California divorce, I essentially started over with two teenage daughters to raise by myself, literally no financial assets, a rented apartment with rented furniture, and a 10 year old car. I did have a job, but was turned down for a credit card. All this at age 50. (and my ex also got 1/2 my meager ARCO pension that was vested)

FIREd posted this above which I find is not the majority case (my bold):
Quote:
I don't see the point of marriage anymore. Marriages are so easily undone nowadays that the practice seems both antiquated and worthless in my eyes. So prenup or not, it's a no for me.
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:08 AM   #54
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I have been married 48 years and I hope it lasts forever but in the sad event something happened and I would consider marrying again I would definitely want a premarital agreement. Here in NC we have the Uniform Premarital Act that makes them enforceable. I know lots of people who have them. If a prospective spouse were to balk at the idea of a Premarital Agreement then he is not the man for me.
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:08 AM   #55
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FIREd posted this above which I find is not the majority case (my bold):
I took that to mean that it is easy to get divorced, even though it can be financially ruinous. At least, my divorce was financially ruinous! Like you, I ended up with nothing but a junk car and debt to pay off at age 50, and had to recover from that and begin building my retirement nestegg from scratch. I don't think I could do that again now, at age 72 and retired.
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:21 AM   #56
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There could be a problem at death. In many states if there is no prenup a surviving spouse has the right to a certain percentage of the estate of the first spouse to die.
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First, the state imposes obligations on married couples that a prenup can't negate.
+1 to both the above. My state is only 1 of 3 that still have dower rights. Specifically in Ohio, this means that a surviving spouse has lifetime rights to 1/3 of real property owned by the deceased spouse. The surviving spouse also has the right to remain in the marital home for up to a year rent-free. The marital home can only be sold within that first year to pay off debts of the estate. If this must be done, the surviving spouse is entitled to fair market rental value as compensation.

A surviving spouse can also elect to set aside the terms of the deceased's will and take their inheritance under state statute, if the statute is more generous than the terms of the will. (Details on the latter depend on if the deceased spouse had children and if any of them were biological children of the surviving spouse.) This can mean a minimum of 1/3 of the probate estate (which I'd guess could be circumvented by using POD/TOD to minimize the probate estate), a $40,000 allowance, and other significant things.

Bottom line, if DH were to pass before me, I'd never consider marrying again. I want what we've built up together during our marriage to go to our 2 kids after our deaths. What we have is pretty significant right now. I'd potentially be looked at as the "nurse with a purse". No thanks.

I don't mean to sound so cynical, but companionship such as W2R and Frank enjoy would be the only arrangement I'd consider because of these laws.
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Old 12-07-2020, 11:25 AM   #57
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I took that to mean that it is easy to get divorced, even though it can be financially ruinous. At least, my divorce was financially ruinous! Like you, I ended up with nothing but a junk car and debt to pay off at age 50, and had to recover from that and begin building my retirement nestegg from scratch. I don't think I could do that again now, at age 72 and retired.
My California divorce took almost 18 months due to the ex not agreeing to any settlement until she got everything known (assets) and some things that were not even actually there.

Also, there was this issue with credit card purchases that kept popping up even though she had agreed, in writing, to stop using credit during the divorce period. I also had to serve her with an additional summons, take her to court, and have the court force her to test for her ability to work and contribute to the raising of the daughters. She blew town right after that and went to Michigan making that effort all for naught. I'm not going to get into what happened after that as it raises my BP.

Yeah, it's SOMTIMES easy to go through the process, but not always....
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Old 12-07-2020, 12:11 PM   #58
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No direct experience. I broached the subject with my current GF and she said she would want a prenup if she got married, and thinks most marriages should have one. She also said she didn't think she'd want to ever get married again.

I think a prenup would have a better chance if it's reasonable, and wasn't signed under duress. It wouldn't be fair to marry someone poor, have them leave their job since you have enough money, then divorce them later and leave them not only poor again, but without a job or current work experience. Also, springing a prenup a few days or weeks before a wedding, when all plans have been made and everyone told puts them in a bad negotiating position. I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to get that nullified as being signed under duress.
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Old 12-07-2020, 12:16 PM   #59
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What I meant by "easy" has more to do with the fact that divorce has become much more acceptable. Nowadays one is unlikely to be shunned by the community because one walked away from one's marriage so the decision to divorce has to clear a much lower threshold. Hence it "cheapens" marriage as a bond.
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Old 12-07-2020, 12:26 PM   #60
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What I meant by "easy" has more to do with the fact that divorce has become much more acceptable. Nowadays one is unlikely to be shunned by the community because one walked away from one's marriage so the decision to divorce has to clear a much lower threshold. Hence it "cheapens" marriage as a bond.
+1 !!
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