Work Situation - Opinions please

[Spanky]

36 years? I'm thinking why would one want to work longer?

it's a very long time especially if it's with the same company.

 

[brett]

The die has been cast. You will soon be history at this company.

Time to take care of number one.

Document any meetings, conversations.

Say nothing. Get a referral to a good employment lawyer. An hour of his/her time would be well worth the investment.

From experience as a senior manager, when HR realizes that you have professional counsel their attitude and their severance offer/conditions usually change in your favor.

Don't forget.....ignore the company loyalty BS. You, and your counsel,are the ONLY ones looking out for you despite any of the sage chestnuts from the HR folks.

And if you need any data, past reviews, letters of commendation, get them off the system, out of your files, and home just in case your access is blocked at some point. Your counsel may want to review these and any other company policy documents. Easier to get them now.

 

[2B]

I started to do a multi-quote then thought better of it. I'll just give my take.

Back "when I thought I was important," I would give PIPs in an honest attempt to rehabilitate individuals. A couple made it through the first one but they eventually fell into old ways. They were then gone. No severance was ever given to someone with truly poor performance. I knew other managers that just did them as a pre-termination meeting with no attempt at rehabilitation.

The fact that a severance is being implied tells me that there is a concern somewhere that the PIP might have issues. The severance, if signed, absolves the company of any legal risk although it is next to impossible to win an age discrimination suit. Even if age discrimination is real, which it probably is a factor, it would have to be certified by the EEOC before a decent lawyer would take the case.

I suspect that based on other comments made there is no viable option but take the severance and run. It may be possible to bring up the anger management issues but I doubt that this would change the outcome. It would possibly be the start of poisoning the well for the supervisor involved.

 

[kgtest]

I don't think it is a trap.


BUT ... in my megacorp experience, I can tell you more than 1/2 don't make it out of PIP. They either find another job or get terminated. The rest make it out of PIP but not without heavy financial penalty (no salary increase, no bonus, etc for duration and even after PIP) and the perception of having been a "bad" employee. My suggestion is that you find a new job while going along with PIP (to buy time).

A PIP is a tool in my experience. Just as Robnplunder says, I do believe its quite effective for the employer.

Usually there is reason enough for the PIP, and if the employee feels differently I would presume they look (even harder) for a new job. If I was on a PIP I would immediately begin looking for an exit strategy.

I presume most people would rather leave on there own terms rather than getting let go or fired for what started as a PIP. Usually they are an acknowledgement of a discussion on improvements needed. Whether a person chooses to acknowledge the discussion (sign the PIP) usually determines their immediate fate.

Sometimes you don't get a PIP, instead you get called into an office and before you know it your turning in your badge.

If the PIP includes behavioural concerns I would definitely take a severance package and move on. Nobody wants to have that reputation...I would imagine maintaining and gaining any amount of clout might be tough after a PIP.

If your employer knows you have legal counsel, I do agree the power shifts a bit usually into the employees favor.

It would be interesting to see some of the more notable court cases on "discrimination" or something else that stemmed from a PIP and eventual firing.

 

[jollystomper]

In my megacorp the PIP is at best a scarlet letter, at worst a prelude to being fired. From my experience 90% of the folks on PIP end up getting fired, and don't get any severance. The real sad cases have been folks who just miss qualifying for a full pension. I would also ask for the severance info in writing, and strongly consider taking it.

 

[brett]

I would counsel against ever writing a nasty letter of resignation...unless you are retiring.


Why burn bridges? You never know when you will meet someone or need their assistance. It solves nothing and can only harm you in the future.

 

[2B]

In my megacorp the PIP is at best a scarlet letter, at worst a prelude to being fired. From my experience 90% of the folks on PIP end up getting fired, and don't get any severance. The real sad cases have been folks who just miss qualifying for a full pension. I would also ask for the severance info in writing, and strongly consider taking it.

If let go "just before" qualifying for a full pension, you do have some legal leverage. The "just before" is what's difficult to determine. It is in Megacorps best interest to purge non-upward moving individuals off their pension plans before they qualify for a full pension. The way pension plans are designed makes the contributions much higher for older workers than younger ones. In my experience, HR is wanting to find reasons to get rid of these people. My favorite code word from the HR folks was "blockers." They hold positions that younger, higher potential employees could take if they weren't filled by a "blocker" that will never move up.

 

[growing_older]

The real sad cases have been folks who just miss qualifying for a full pension.

Sounds like a pattern of age discrimination. Unfortunately any one individual may have a hard time saying a single instance of a PIP is discrimination without access to the pattern of company behavior. Which if it systemically deprives people of a pension that they worked years for, is despicable.

 

[pb4uski]

While it is hard to say based on your post, it sounds ominous to me.

I did a PIP on an employee who had been with the company a long time in a sincere desire for her to improve her performance so we could retain her. I'm happy to say she rose to the challenge and was a model employee after that.

I received a PIP early in my career (we think you're smart but lazy and in 6 months its either up or out) and was promoted 5 months later.

I inherited a department that had an employee under a PIP and it just got worse so we let her go.

And like others posted, I have seen many instances where supervisors had no sincere desire to rehabilitate the underperforming employee and it was just another step that needed to be completed as part of the firing process.

If I were in that situation I would inquire about severance while being clear that I had not made a decision either way but just wanted to make a decision knowing all the information. If I thought I was being railroaded and didn't give a care about the job I would probably consider making a formal compliant about the manager's Code of Conduct violations, knowing that the deck is stacked against me but sometimes the best defense is a good offense. Or at least tell the manager one is coming so s/he can stew on it for a while.

 

[mystang52]

Adding to the chorus........... There are always anecdotal exceptions, but once a PIP is given the employee is toast. PIP has merely become a defensive legal mechanism prior to terminating an employee (especially one with 36 years tenure).

 

[SJ1_]

+1

I've been a manager for a long time and a PIP is a tick in the box before someone can be fired in my mega corp. I've only had to do a few PIPs but once you're subject to a PIP it's almost impossible to find another job in the company and if you were able to do the job there wouldn't be a PIP involved. If you're fired there is no severance.

If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.

I agree. Sounds like they are doing what is legally required to terminate someone. The severance package usually comes with a sign off of the
x employee saying that they will not sue the company. I would be real surprised if they did not pay the severance as promised.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.

Sounds like a workplace bullying situation. It is unfortunately not illegal. It most often ends badly for the target. If the employee divulges policy violations now, it will look like retaliation. I would be looking for a new job now. Or can this person just retire? Would not count on severance.


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[38Chevy454]

Adding to the chorus........... There are always anecdotal exceptions, but once a PIP is given the employee is toast. PIP has merely become a defensive legal mechanism prior to terminating an employee (especially one with 36 years tenure).

Agree, the whole point of the PIP is to cover the employer's butt in case of lawsuit. The best the employee can do is get out. The stink of the PIP will follow them forever at that company, and if ever a layoff, they will be first on the list, even years later. It is no-win situation for the employee, time at that company is over. There is no future except the final being fired.

Only option is to get a severance and leave, hopefully with unemployment. Then either get a new job or just retire. Does the company have a pension plan that this 36 year employee can take, even if earlier than they want?

 

[youbet]

While I agree with the comments that PIPs frequently result in termination, it would be worthwhile to know what kind of performance issues were stated on this PIP and what kind of remedies were expected. For example, some performance issues are quantifiable and correctable such as turning reports in on time or reducing absenteeism. Others are more subjective and if management is determined that the PIP'd employee be severed, no amount of change on the employee's part will result in continued employment.

OP, what is the nature of the PIP? Are there specific quantifiable issues that the employee can correct if he so desires such as stop missing meetings or stop coming in late or do hand reports in on time?

If the PIP seems insurmountable because either the PIP deliverables are subjective or quantifiable but out of reach of the employees capabilities or willingness, then I see two paths:

1. Investigate the severance. Determine if you can work the 90 days and then leave with the severance. Ensure that unemployment compensation will not be challenged. These steps would maximize your situation financially.

2. If you have skills, especially individual contributor technical skills, ask to be reassigned to a position (even at a pay cut) where you can work for additional time. Perhaps there is some period of time, a year or two, that takes you to a goal for FIRE. If the PIP is for performance issues unique to your current job but you have good skills that your employer would benefit from if you are reassigned to a job focusing on those, it might be considered.

 

[imoldernu]

Not familiar with personnel (or HR today), but way back a few decades ago, when PIP was called Standards of Performance, a similar situation.

Lots depended on pay, alternative options with other companies, and years to go for a reasonable retirement... and a mean, ego driven superior. I hung in there, and in a month, the guy who reviewed me left, and I received a promotion to a better more satisfactory job, and a raise.

Yeah... I know it doesn't work that way today, but the part about the alternative options.. in my case, the expertise was in that company, that part of the company... and at age 49 the skills not readily transferrable to a different business. That meant a probable 20% 30% pay cut if I left.

As they say, "discretion is the better part of valor" weighing the realities and downsides before making the decision... Sounds like you're doing that, and my guess is the outcome will be positive.

Best of luck!

 

[Amethyst]

Agreed. Even if you don't care about bridges, or are retiring, nastiness is not classy and you just look like a sore loser even if THEY are the real losers. Just be above the @$$hats.

A.

I would counsel against ever writing a nasty letter of resignation...unless you are retiring.


Why burn bridges? You never know when you will meet someone or need their assistance. It solves nothing and can only harm you in the future.

 

[Spanky]

Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/never-sign-a-pip-heres-why/

 

[bw1990]

One caution ....

Despite what others may lead you to believe, in employee vs management situation, employee rarely wins if at all. Something short of sexual and other harassment with witness who will back you up, it's not worth going all out against the management. Only dumb manager will make big enough mistake to shoot himself in the foot. Your best bet is to move on.

+1

It is important to remember that HR is not on your side. They represent the company, are employed by the company, and will do what it takes to protect the company. Any allegations against the company without legal enforcing evidence will be dismissed along with the one making them.

 

[MRG]

Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/never-sign-a-pip-heres-why/

I'm sure the author knows much more than I do. However at Megacorp we were instructioned to write that employee refused to sign. PIPs had standard verbage to follow all your management's requests. HR reviewed the paperwork and you were gone.

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[mystang52]

Never sign the PIP according to this article:
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/never-sign-a-pip-heres-why/

I haven't Googled the author, Michael Church, yet. But I think this article is spot-on.

As an aside, man oh man I sure am glad I'm out of that ugly rat race.

 

[pb4uski]

I haven't Googled the author, Michael Church, yet. But I think this article is spot-on.

As an aside, man oh man I sure am glad I'm out of that ugly rat race.

His background on his "About" page hardly inspires me that he is qualified to give the advice he is giving.

I live in Baltimore and my interests include machine learning, game design, computer programming, and startups.

Here’s a reasonably successful card game I developed: Ambition.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I used to have the kind of job where I usually had to put one or two people on PIPs every year. (Most of them were specifically transferred into my group as their last chance.) In one case I thought the former manager was a doofus and gave the guy too hard of assignments. He stayed and thrived in the right job. I found out another person had medical issues so I found him a less taxing job in the company.

But otherwise my experience matches most of the other posters here. Most people on PIPs either quit, negotiated a severance or ended up getting fired.

I have also seen managers screw up and the employees get good sized settlements. They were the managers who were not detail oriented and did not run things by legal and HR. After I left my former employer I helped an employee with an out of the blue "performance issue" (after a good review, merit raise and big bonus!) find a good attorney. He received a nice settlement, found a new job right away and actually the manager got fired for not following company procedures and leaving them open to a lawsuit.

So +1 on the employment attorney. My former employer would do anything to avoid a lawsuit because they felt that jury trials were like throwing the dice and a sympathetic jury could mean a $1M+ award, warranted or not.

 

[FreeAtLast]

I would get an attorney. Possibly some one made a mistake and those responsible need to be held accountable. You need to negotiate from a position of strength.

 

[Helen]

This thread jarred my memory of something that happened to a good friend of mine. She was doing a difficult job really well. She found out something unethical was going on and she reported it (whistle blower). About six months later she was put on a PIP, even though she had always been rated highly. Well, she didn't achieve the state objectives on the PIP and was fired.

She had about 24 years in and really got screwed on her pension.

There is no way she could have met the PIP performance targets since the real reason for firing her was to retaliate for exposing something unethical.

 

[Options]

+2 this is exactly how it is done in my Megacorp. Once you're PIP'd you're done. We tell folks its to help them improve and become better more productive employees but we both know it's because they are in the bottom 10% of the rankings. Take the message and the severance and avoid the embarrassment and degradation that is sure to come.

Absolutely true. You don't want to stay in any place that has placed you on a "PIP". PIPS are the latest in the nasty tricks HR has learned from outside consultants on how to screw employees.

I advise:

1) Trust absolutely nothing anyone from HR says. They're paid to appear sincere, but they are in bed with the organization's interests, not yours.
2) Don't take the first severance amount offered; counter with at least 6 months additional severance and 6 months additional paid COBRA or remaining on the company's medical plan;
3) They will probably balk, but after 36 years of excellent performance reviews, this employee will be in at least one protected class (age, over 40). If he chooses to sue, the burden will be on the company to prove that this sudden one new bad review is not a pretext for age discrimination. Don't hesitate to mention you're thinking of seeing an attorney, and do see one if you truly feel age or other discrimination may have been a factor.
4) As part of the severance agreement, have it state in writing that your application for unemployment will not be contested;
5) Also obtain their commitment not to provide any kind of negative reference information to your prospective employers; in fact, use a colleague or other source in the organization as a reference instead of your current boss;
6) Negotiate 6 months of outplacement assistance. Most outplacement companies are worthless, IMO, but it's an added benefit worth at least a few thousand, and they could turn out to be very good. Again, they may balk and counter, but at least you negotiated.
7) If you seek another position after this, aim to negotiate a salary a minimum 20% higher than your current salary, so that something good can come from this unfortunate incident.

Good luck.