Help with amending garden soil...

[B-Guy]

I’m frustrated with our garden’s soil conditions. It's primarily heavy clay, with hard pan starting at about 8-10 inches down, and it’s large at 50’ X 100’. Where the garden is, was a pasture prior to purchasing the farm, so it took several years to get the grass under control. We have had the garden in the same location for almost 20 years and is only marginally better now.

When the moisture is just right it’s wonderful to till and plant in. However, most of the time its either too moist or too dry. Some of the things we’ve done to amending it, is the addition of cow manure, green manure (legumes, oats, and buckwheat) and straw (7 big round bails of partially rotted straw so far).

A few years ago, I had the soil tested and its pH is 7.5 and the only thing that was suggested was to add was nitrate nitrogen at 1.7 lbs. per 1000 sq feet, which we did, and possibly increase the acidity, which I haven’t done.

We have heard that sand is a cost-effective solution to loosen up clay up with, mixing it at about a 50/50 mix. There are also many soil conditioners that claim to loosen up clay, like RestoreClay and Humate Soil Conditioner, to name a couple. The last thing I want to do is to make the situation worse.

I would love to hear any ideas from those of you who have dealt with a similar issue and what you did to resolve it.

 

[Murf2]

Sand will help. For years I also tilled in leaves in the fall. To cheap to buy any commercial stuff. [emoji3526]

Murf

 

[street]

In my opinion you have done all the right things to improve clay soil. Straw from a field of wheat that has been harvested and spread does wonders for heavy ground. I would think sand would be good also. Anything that can rot and work into the soil is good and needs to be done each year for many years.
Good luck!!

 

[Gumby]

Peat moss and/or shredded leaves also help loosen the soil. When I do my fall cleanup, I spread the shredded maple leaves about an inch thick over the growing beds in the garden. I let it sit and compost over the winter and then till the bed in the spring. This also lowers the ph (makes the soil more acid). I also till some sand into the beds every year.

 

[B-Guy]

In my opinion you have done all the right things to improve clay soil. I would think sand would be good also. Anything that can rot and work into the soil is good and needs to be done each year for many years.
Good luck!!

Yep, I have 3 more big round bails (approx. 1500 lbs. apiece) showing up any day that I will work in one at a time. Each one rolled out makes about a 1" mat across the entire garden. Enough to where the disk wants to ride across the top making it tough to incorporate it into the soil if I spread out more than one bale at a time.

Peat moss and/or shredded leaves also help loosen the soil. When I do my fall cleanup, I spread the shredded maple leaves about an inch thick over the growing beds in the garden. I let it sit and compost over the winter and then till the bed in the spring. This also lowers the ph (makes the soil more acid). I also till some sand into the beds every year.

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, we live on a knob that just about as soon as the leaves fall off, they are blown into the ravines around our house, and they are pretty inaccessible. I do use peat moss to side dress the 50’ of asparagus. We don’t have a place to purchase peat in bulk. If I was to put down 1” of peat across the garden that would require approximately 190 bags at $8.86 which comes out to just under $1700. More than I want to spend. It is my understanding that most brown material will lower the pH as it decomposes.

 

[arbeadub]

My suggestion is to leave mulch on top and only till when planting individual plants, or strip till for sweet corn. Clay soil needs the natural structure built up from roots and worm burrows for good drainage. Never leave bare soil, cover with mulch or cover crops, with high PH you can use any thing from grass cuttings to saw dust.

 

[Graybeard]

I always read that sand is good to loosen clay. Compost will help the tilth but that is a large garden to be adding compost to, you'd need dump truck loads. Your green manures are helpful. 7.5 is a great pH if all you want to grow is peas. You need to acidify the soil. I think whatever you do is going to be costly due to the square footage.

 

[arbeadub]

The Ruth Stout method is what I am suggesting.

 

[B-Guy]

I always read that sand is good to loosen clay. Compost will help the tilth but that is a large garden to be adding compost to, you'd need dump truck loads. Your green manures are helpful. 7.5 is a great pH if all you want to grow is peas. You need to acidify the soil. I think whatever you do is going to be costly due to the square footage.

Graybeard- I have heard that adding 50% sand to the garden soil is what it takes to loosen up the heavy clay soil. I have access to all the fine sand I want but it’s 30 miles away and it would take me 15 loads. I have a local sand pit that I can get it here for less than hauling it that far. If that is what I decide to do I will still need 75-ish yards of sand to start with. That’s a lot of sand or roughly 5 simi loads of sand if I’m figuring correctly. I’m also looking for something on a grander scale to acidify the soil, but haven’t found anything suitable. Do you have a suggestion to acidify the soil without breaking the bank?

 

[Graybeard]

Graybeard- I have heard that adding 50% sand to the garden soil is what it takes to loosen up the heavy clay soil. I have access to all the fine sand I want but it’s 30 miles away and it would take me 15 loads. I have a local sand pit that I can get it here for less than hauling it that far. If that is what I decide to do I will still need 75-ish yards of sand to start with. That’s a lot of sand or roughly 5 simi loads of sand if I’m figuring correctly. I’m also looking for something on a grander scale to acidify the soil, but haven’t found anything suitable. Do you have a suggestion to acidify the soil without breaking the bank?

I never worked with a "garden" that size, it's almost a small farm! Dumping sand and mixing it in would be a project. How deep do you want to go? I never did this as my soils have been sandy loam and all I ever did was add manure and shredded leaves to build the organic matter and planted with my own compost but my gardens were 600 and 1200 sq ft.

I Googled how to acidify high ph soil. https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+acidify+high+ph+soil&oq=how+to+acidify+high+ph+soil&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160j33i299l2.13213j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

It seems elemental sulfur is an inexpensive way but how much to use depends upon your soil type and some chemical analysis of the Cation Exchange Capacity CEC). This gets technical, I have no idea of the cost of elemental sulfur but it seems like you may be looking at hundreds of pounds. Maybe look at the link and do some reading. In a small garden like mine this isn't that costly but you have 5000 sq ft, a bit more than 10% of an acre.

 

[splitwdw]

Do not bother with sand, add rotted manure and leaves. If you can't catch your leaves steal them from your friends and neighbors' yards. You said you've had the garden for 20 years. Haven't you been adding organic matter every year? For that size garden you need a lot.

 

[Freedom56]

Here is our solution to clay soil. We gave up and built raised garden beds and filled them up with good soil. We have five of them now in our backyard complete with drip irrigation systems.

 

[38Chevy454]

Sand will help. I have heavy clay soil here and it's either too wet and mushy or too dry and rock hard. The organic matter is good, more is better. Sand is also good to help from forming the big clods. Dealing with the high clay content is tough. I am not sure pH has much effect on the clay; for plants yes, but clay issues ?

Mine gets full of water in spring and once saturated takes a long time to dry without the longer sunny days. Then after heat of summer and some lack.of rain it shrinks and I have big cracks 1/2 inch wide. Like one extreme to the other, with a very short time when the soil is nice.

All of our plants around the house i dig a big hole and remove the original soil, then place the plant with good topsoil around it.

 

[B-Guy]

Graybeard-
Our garden is enough for our family. I should have the equipment to tackle mixing in sand and whatever other amendments we need to add to get the soil in better shape unless it requires something special.
I have also Googled most of what I’ve asked about including acidifying it. There are lots of opinions and suggestions, but nothing definitive so far. I have read a bit on elemental sulfur but there are many other options also including liquid acidifiers.

Splitwdw-
We have added cow manure several times. The first time it was about 2” on top of the soil when I finished spreading it out. We do add other organic matter every year mostly straw and corn stalks. It’s just not loosening up. We live in the middle of farm country, few around here bags their leaves and if they do, they would put it on their own gardens. Just about everyone around here has a garden to supplement their food supply.

Freedom56-
That would be great but roughly 70% of our food is harvested from our land. So, to have enough raised beds to supply us with enough produce wouldn’t be cost effective.

38Chevy454-
Sounds like we are in the same boat. We have had exactly the same experience when it comes to how long the soil is workable.
How much sand did you add? If I could find someone that needed clay soil I’d trade them for nice loamy soil!

 

[pacergal]

Hard, clay soil here. We have added sand over the years here (30+ in the same house, so its been a long process). Plus anytime we have planted anything, we add a bunch of peat moss in a hole twice the size we desire to plant and till it in.
If its something that likes acid, I will add vinegar to the soil.
I will do that when my blue hydrangeas start turning more pink.
The last 5 years, we have simply switched to container gardening, as it is easier.
We also compost everything we can and add that constantly.

That big of a garden you have may take a few years to get the clay soil amended well enough for good growing.

 

[pacergal]

Oh! and coffee grounds work well also.
We go to local coffee shops and take all the old bagged up grounds that they have. Not unusual to get 7-8 bags at a time.
We use it to help composting also.
So if you are near a town coffee shops, give it a try. Free garden compost

 

[Freedom56]

Graybeard-

Freedom56-
That would be great but roughly 70% of our food is harvested from our land. So, to have enough raised beds to supply us with enough produce wouldn’t be cost effective.

Keep in mind with these raised garden beds with drip irrigation and twenty inch deep good soil, the yields are much higher. You can plan more vegetable per sq/ft than in the ground. We rarely buy vegetables from the supermarket and donate about 60% to the local food pantry. We also don't use any pesticides.

 

[B-Guy]

Oh! and coffee grounds work well also.
We go to local coffee shops and take all the old bagged up grounds that they have. Not unusual to get 7-8 bags at a time.
We use it to help composting also.
So if you are near a town coffee shops, give it a try. Free garden compost

I haven't thought about asking for a coffee shop for their grounds. Great idea! I do save ours and put about 3) 5-gallon buckets on a year, on top of everything else.

 

[B-Guy]

Keep in mind with these raised garden beds with drip irrigation and twenty inch deep good soil, the yields are much higher. You can plan more vegetable per sq/ft than in the ground. We rarely buy vegetables from the supermarket and donate about 60% to the local food pantry. We also don't use any pesticides.

I'm sure your right as far as most vegetables produce more per square foot in raised beds, but even if it cut it in half, we would still need 2500 square feet of raised beds. That would be more than a good-sized house, not really practical for us. I know that corn doesn’t work well in raised beds and during the peak of the season we pick a 5-gallon bucket of tomatoes a day off 30-ish plants. Not sure about all the other vegetables we grow a year, such as 200 garlic, 100 onions, 100-200 lbs. of potatoes, 10 cucumbers plants, 50 rutabagas, a variety of peppers both sweet and hot, cantaloupe, watermelons, and sweat potatoes. Some of our herbs are grown in the garden which would lend its self to raised bed gardening. On the scale of garden we have I just don’t think a raised bed would practical.

 

[ocean view]

So I’m confused. You say that your soil conditions are poor which would lead me to think your crop harvests are also lacking. But you just described your yields and it sounds like your plants are good producers. Of course what do I know about the yield on a plot the size of yours.

What is your goal with changing your soil? Is it increased yields? The ability to grow crops that currently don’t thrive? Fewer pests? Maybe if we understood the goal, the advice might be more on track.

Is there a Master Gardener program in your area? They are often associated with a university and offer advice to home owners. Since these folks are familiar with the local conditions, often they’re also familiar with the solutions to the common issues such as improving the clay soil.

 

[B-Guy]

So I’m confused. You say that your soil conditions are poor which would lead me to think your crop harvests are also lacking. But you just described your yields and it sounds like your plants are good producers. Of course what do I know about the yield on a plot the size of yours.

What is your goal with changing your soil? Is it increased yields? The ability to grow crops that currently don’t thrive? Fewer pests? Maybe if we understood the goal, the advice might be more on track.

Is there a Master Gardener program in your area? They are often associated with a university and offer advice to home owners. Since these folks are familiar with the local conditions, often they’re also familiar with the solutions to the common issues such as improving the clay soil.

Great point. What I would like to have, is more workable and forgivable soil for a broader range of moisture. With clay soil, there is a very small window to have workable soil if it's too wet it like working pancake batter if it is to dry it is like working concrete. There isn't much middle ground. If you are unfamiliar with clay soil, consider yourself fortunate.

Also, we are not producing the same quality/quantity as we were 10 years ago. I believe the quality/quantity is due to the more alkaline soil {higher pH), thus the need for acidification to lower the pH from 7.5 to something more like 6.0. Having sweat corn that has 15 rows verses sweat corn that has 23 rows would be a good example of proper soil conditions. Both may produce 150 ears in a 100’ row but the yield per row is significantly less on the one that has 15 rows. We evaluate our field corn the same way.

 

[38Chevy454]

I don't have a big garden. Just a lot (like 400 ft worth) of landscape beds around the house, detached garage and some fence line. My sand addition is just what I get cheap to free and mostly scattered fairly thin. Most of my plants have the extra big hole and replacement topsoil. I mulch cover everything and that adds organic as it breaks down. I am on first name basis with local Lowe's garden center and buy all the broken bags for cheap. Works good for me and helps them clean up and get rid of the broken bags that most people don't want.

I burn all the leaves, otherwise they would smother the lawn or never break down from the huge pile. Lots of big trees equals lots of leaves.

My garden is down to a small raised bed style. Used to have big garden, but now we like being able to leave in summer without needing someone to be caretaker. It's all replacement topsoil, no native crappy clay soil.

 

[aja8888]

Take some soil samples and send them off to a university (like Texas A & M) that has a agricultural department and ask what their recommendations are.

 

[SnowballCamper]

Get yourself a modern soil textbook. You can get parts of one here https://books.google.com/books?id=2...XqHzQIHTOzDLwQ6AF6BAgeEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are a lot of things that are bad for soil. Plowing, leaving fallow without anything planted, too much synthetic fertilizer, etc. But to maintain soil in a state to keep plants growing, while harvesting the plants, requires a delicate balance over years, and probably wouldn't be fixed in one season.

Get the soil tested, and talk to your local conservation district.

 

[Graybeard]

Well I found it!

Back in 2003 I contacted a soil analysis company but forgot their name or even what part of the country they were in so Google was not helping. Because I keep excellent records, it dawned on me I should have the correspondence from them and sure enough I do!

So this is the company https://www.cropservicesintl.com/

They may be able to help you, they perform services for farmers and gardeners at least they did back in 2003 and it appears they are still in business.

Do you have access to local landscapers who do Fall clean up of leaves? Here they have to pay to dump the leaves so I found a guy who was thrilled to dump them in my yard for free. They shred the leaves sometimes twice and blow them into the back of a pickup with an 8' cube and it is densely packed, you can't put your hand into the leaves when he opens the back of the cube. Get a few dozen loads of them. Then get an equal amount of fresh manure. 2" is nothing, I used to spread 4 cubic yards of cow manure on a 1200 sq ft garden with a lot of shredded leaves and rototilled it in, the manure every 4 or 5 years and the leaves every year. You must have the machinery to spread and till this in from what you said. The question can you get the leaves and manure? You could add sand to that too.