Help with amending garden soil...

[B-Guy]

Get yourself a modern soil textbook. You can get parts of one here https://books.google.com/books?id=2...XqHzQIHTOzDLwQ6AF6BAgeEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

There are a lot of things that are bad for soil. Plowing, leaving fallow without anything planted, too much synthetic fertilizer, etc. But to maintain soil in a state to keep plants growing, while harvesting the plants, requires a delicate balance over years, and probably wouldn't be fixed in one season.

Get the soil tested, and talk to your local conservation district.

That looks like a great book!

 

[B-Guy]

Here is a soil analysis that I had run locally.

 

[SnowballCamper]

I'd try planting a nitrogen fixer cover crop (or a mix) for a season. Then disc or till it in to provide some organic matter to the soil structure before winter (don't harvest it). Then see if it's better in the spring. Just a guess here...

 

[pjigar]

Like many mentioned, you generally have two options: organic and inorganic. You have to stay on top of adding new organic sources regularly: Mulch, Compost, Peat moss, green compost, plant matter, manure, etc. Organic sources are important from nutrient perspective and may add a very little to the "workability" of the soil. Best inorganic sources tend to be very expensive: Vermiculite and perlite. One of the cost effective inorganic amendment is "expanded shale". I plan to bring in a dump truck load of expanded shale when I start my garden in a year or two at our new acreage. We have black gumbo soil.


PS: I have done raised bed gardening in my suburban home. I grew up on a farm but we had good soil structure there. This black gumbo soil is a new ball game for me so YMMV.

 

[street]

I'd try planting a nitrogen fixer cover crop (or a mix) for a season. Then disc or till it in to provide some organic matter to the soil structure before winter (don't harvest it). Then see if it's better in the spring. Just a guess here...

I did this one early fall. I hand scattered some wheat seed and raked it in. Keep it wet and let it grow up to about a 10 to 12 inches and then worked it in the soil just before winter. After the winter the next spring I planted, and I could tell the difference in soil and production was great. It added a lot of nitrogen to my soil.

I did run lawn mower over the 10-inch-high wheat stand and set on much so I broke it down and all mater stayed right in the garden.

 

[B-Guy]

Some of the things we’ve done to amending it, is the addition of cow manure, green manure (legumes, oats, and buckwheat) and straw (7 big round bails of partially rotted straw so far).

Every year we add some organic material, some years two or three times.

After reading all I can find from so far from universities and county extension offices, there are two mindsets. Half say add sand and the other half say never add sand. They can’t both be correct or can they? My thought is if I add sand, I can’t undo it. So, for now I will work on what I can without adding sand.

Another suggestion is “NOT” to till the soil. I have been guilty of doing this almost every year. For now, I will forgo the tillage and just add organic material to the top. Let’s see if in a couple of years if we don’t see a change.

I already had 3) large round bails of straw earmarked to put on after harvest and I’m going to look into purchasing enough compost to cover the garden with about 2” of organic compost. My thought is to put down the compost 1st then put down the straw as it may hold in the moisture and keep the compost from blowing.

 

[pjigar]

So, for now I will work on what I can without adding sand.

You can't go wrong there.

Another suggestion is “NOT” to till the soil. I have been guilty of doing this almost every year. For now, I will forgo the tillage and just add organic material to the top. Let’s see if in a couple of years if we don’t see a change.

If you decide to just stick with organic materials then try to mix different organic materials that has different breakdown schedule. Top dress with straws and then mulch. The woody material on top will breakdown slowly.

No till garden will build soil structure over time that can breath and is bio diverse. My raised beds were no till obviously and I witnessed that over time.


The "no till" gumbo soil will always be gumbo and will be very hard to work without tilling. You should seriously look into "expanded shale". It is lightweight compared to the sand and economical. I just got a quote for 35 cu yd semi load delivered onsite (factory was about 2 hour drive) for $2331. I plan to have it delivered this month.


By the way, standard recipe is:
Lay down 3" of expanded shale and till into 3-6" of original soil. Lay down 3" of good compost and till it one more time.


Original article from TAMU: https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu...hortupdate_archives/2003/nov03/Expdshale.html

 

[DaveInMi]

SoftCal Pellets

I had heavy clay garden soil as well. Over the past couple of years, I added SoftCal Pellets to the soil and it has helped significantly.
The pellets worked great for the lawn as well.
https://www.southernstates.com/catalog/product/p-9862-softcal-pellets-gypsum-soil-conditioner-40-lb

 

[Graybeard]

Another suggestion is “NOT” to till the soil. I have been guilty of doing this almost every year. For now, I will forgo the tillage and just add organic material to the top. Let’s see if in a couple of years if we don’t see a change.

I already had 3) large round bails of straw earmarked to put on after harvest and I’m going to look into purchasing enough compost to cover the garden with about 2” of organic compost. My thought is to put down the compost 1st then put down the straw as it may hold in the moisture and keep the compost from blowing.

My concern about that is the clay is still under the "top" of the ground and as you know clay does not drain water. You may be creating a healthy soil but if the water is trapped then roots will rot.

I used to rototill my garden once in the Fall working in shredded leaves and every few years manure and then again once in the Spring. I read this is good. I also read tilling the soil destroys soil structure and the micro organisms that colonize the soil. They can't both be right can they? Anyway, I stopped rototilling the garden, last time was probably 2013 or 2014. I will say rototilling brings tons of weed seeds up to the surface and since I stopped I have almost no weeds compared to the years when I tilled.

 

[ERD50]

It probably takes Mother Nature thousands of years to develop a good soil for gardening. If you want to speed that up, I think you need extreme measures.

I suspect a heavy soil just laughs at 2" of manure. Manure is fairly light weight, and then it's going to decompose down to almost nothing in a few years. I'm guessing that if you want to improve the top 12", you are going to need many times that in organic matter (plant matter, not the 'organic vs 'chemical' type), and it takes time to get it worked in - probably many years.

We had a small garden in our previous home, the soil had some clay, but not 'heavy clay'. Over 30 years I added a lot of stuff to it - hardly made a difference.

If you want to do this in your lifetime, you might want to find a source of good dirt, and bring in 12" of it and just put it on top - kind of like the earlier suggestion of a raised bed w/o the wood frame.

50 x 100 x 1 = 5000 cu ft, divide by 27 is ~ 185 cu yards. There ya go - done!

Well, maybe not 'done' - get a farmer with a deep chisel plow to break up the pan, and get some of the good soil worked in below 12".

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

... during the peak of the season we pick a 5-gallon bucket of tomatoes a day off 30-ish plants. Not sure about all the other vegetables we grow a year, such as 200 garlic, 100 onions, 100-200 lbs. of potatoes, 10 cucumbers plants, 50 rutabagas, ....

This might be blasphemy, but considering the cost/effort of getting the soil the way you want, did you ever consider..... ummm, scaling down a little (no, a lot) bit?

I know fresh garden tomatoes are amazing, but really, what do you do with a 5 gallon bucket a day? If you scaled down, you could improve the soil for the plants that matter. I don't think onions are too picky.

For things like the cukes and melons, maybe dig a pit a foot wide and deep and replace the soil in the pit, just where you plant - the vines don't really need good soil under them. You could even do that with tomatoes, they need space, so improve the soil where you plant, rather than the entire 50 x 100.

A little like the story of the Indians (first peoples, natives, whatever the respectful term is these days) teaching the Pilgrims to put a fish right next to the seed to provide fertilizer, rather than trying to fertilize the entire area.

Good Luck!

-ERD50

 

[B-Guy]

This might be blasphemy, but considering the cost/effort of getting the soil the way you want, did you ever consider..... ummm, scaling down a little (no, a lot) bit?

I know fresh garden tomatoes are amazing, but really, what do you do with a 5 gallon bucket a day?
-ERD50

Yes, we do have a big garden. Getting rid of it won’t likely happen as long as we leave here. My DW loves to garden, put up (can) an incredible amount of food, and cook with that food. You mentioned the tomatoes, they are eaten fresh, making tomatoes soup, tomato sauce, tomatoes juice, diced tomatoes, V8 juice are the one I can think of. When the freezers are full and all the canning is on the shelves, I can’t imagine we would ever be able to eat all the goods. By the time the next season rolls around it’s almost all gone. Most of the gardens around here in rural America have large gardens. The smallest one I know of is probably 1500-ish sq feet. I would say ours is average size, for around here.

Having farms, I like to be a good steward and leave the land better than I found it. This includes the garden. We will never see the 100’s of trees we’ve planted become mature, the garden flourish, or realize what we have contributed. Someday someone will, and that’s a good part of the reason why we do what we do.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, we do have a big garden. Getting rid of it won’t likely happen as long as we leave here. My DW loves to garden, put up (can) an incredible amount of food, and cook with that food. You mentioned the tomatoes, they are eaten fresh, making tomatoes soup, tomato sauce, tomatoes juice, diced tomatoes, V8 juice are the one I can think of. When the freezers are full and all the canning is on the shelves, I can’t imagine we would ever be able to eat all the goods. By the time the next season rolls around it’s almost all gone. Most of the gardens around here in rural America have large gardens. The smallest one I know of is probably 1500-ish sq feet. I would say ours is average size, for around here.

Having farms, I like to be a good steward and leave the land better than I found it. This includes the garden. We will never see the 100’s of trees we’ve planted become mature, the garden flourish, or realize what we have contributed. Someday someone will, and that’s a good part of the reason why we do what we do.

OK, but what about my suggestion to improve specific areas rather than the entire 100x50?

My Dad always had a big family garden, and I've done a fair amount myself. I pretty much gave up over time, tired of fighting the hungry animals and insects - stick to herbs now which are a big bang for the buck in terms of time/energy and it's great to have fresh herbs available most of the season.

So I'm familiar with most of those plants. Cukes, melons, etc are planted in 'hills' - probably a good 8' apart? So amend the soil heavily in the 'hill'. Maybe a couple bushels sized volume of good soil/compost to plant in? Enough to make planting easy, and enough for the roots to get a good start? Large tomatoes plants are spaced out, similar approach?

-ERD50

 

[Badger]

I don't know what I would do with heavy clay soil. I recall when very young my grandfather had a large garden in NC clay that fed the family. I wish I had his gardening skills because the tomatoes, corn, and turnips were the best ever.
I garden in beach sand under blistering sun which has it's own set of problems. Too bad we couldn't swap some out to each other.

Cheers!

 

[rgarling]

Check out no-dig gardening by Charles Dowding. I have tried this over clay soil and it worked well for creating great plants for the deer to eat.

 

[retire to nature]

I have read about natural gardening. And I realized modern farming imbalance all the eco-system like thinking moles as pests. I think I got a or many moles in my yard. I put alot of mulch into soil, maybe thats why. I googled it how to get rid of it, and kept learning I better to leave all lives to balance itself. And I can see it tills as pro part, but yes it disturbs roots part. But for a long term, I would leave them free. According to my research, a mole would have for a certain land size. so it won't populate too many as we fear.

 

[ERD50]

Check out no-dig gardening by Charles Dowding. I have tried this over clay soil and it worked well for creating great plants for the deer to eat.

Yep, that was my experience. Just got tired of fighting Mother Nature and all her critters.

But apparently, for most herbs, the human digestive system is out of sync with most critters/bugs. But we do have to watch the dill and parsley carefully, caterpillars can get into those and wipe them out within days. But I kept an eye out this year, inspected each morning, and just picked them off by hand, and they are done for the year. So not much effort at all.

I have read about natural gardening. And I realized modern farming imbalance all the eco-system like thinking moles as pests. I think I got a or many moles in my yard. I put alot of mulch into soil, maybe thats why. I googled it how to get rid of it, and kept learning I better to leave all lives to balance itself. And I can see it tills as pro part, but yes it disturbs roots part. But for a long term, I would leave them free. According to my research, a mole would have for a certain land size. so it won't populate too many as we fear.

Yes, but the critters don't seem to understand the word "balance" - they want it all for themselves!

The most aggravating for me was finding green tomatoes, split in half, 10 feet from the garden. What the heck? As far as I could determine, it was deer biting them, deciding they weren't any good (of course not, they aren't ripe yet!), and spitting them out. Alright, so stop already!

-ERD50

 

[retire to nature]

Clay soil means no air or no organic matter which would be nonactive soil. so active live soil has alot of microbe inside. so no microbe or critters are working in compacted soil. You definitely know the active soil works much better to produce.
And a japanese dr discovered the balance of microbe in nature and made it as a product.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_microorganism
many birds have been eating my berries too, and squash is gone by other animals too, but I wouldnt mind to share with them. I tried to think many birds sound I pay for the leisure.

 

[splitwdw]

I’m frustrated with our garden’s soil conditions. It's primarily heavy clay, with hard pan starting at about 8-10 inches down, and it’s large at 50’ X 100’. Where the garden is, was a pasture prior to purchasing the farm, so it took several years to get the grass under control. We have had the garden in the same location for almost 20 years and is only marginally better now.

When the moisture is just right it’s wonderful to till and plant in. However, most of the time its either too moist or too dry. Some of the things we’ve done to amending it, is the addition of cow manure, green manure (legumes, oats, and buckwheat) and straw (7 big round bails of partially rotted straw so far).

A few years ago, I had the soil tested and its pH is 7.5 and the only thing that was suggested was to add was nitrate nitrogen at 1.7 lbs. per 1000 sq feet, which we did, and possibly increase the acidity, which I haven’t done.

We have heard that sand is a cost-effective solution to loosen up clay up with, mixing it at about a 50/50 mix. There are also many soil conditioners that claim to loosen up clay, like RestoreClay and Humate Soil Conditioner, to name a couple. The last thing I want to do is to make the situation worse.

I would love to hear any ideas from those of you who have dealt with a similar issue and what you did to resolve it.

After 20 years of adding amendments to your soil it's evident that you have not been adding enough. Plus a garden that size you can't work it from the outside so you are walking and compacting the soil all summer. My gardens aren't as big as yours but I hope to expand them once I retire. I don't want the garden to be a big work project every day when I come home from work. My gardens are raised bed (two 8' X 20') due to all the underground streams. I hoe the garden every other day. I add compost all through the summer and add chopped up leaves (zero turn works well for this) and rotted manure in the fall. I also spread a thin layer of grass cuttings from trimming on the beds, let it dry then hoe it in. We have heavy clay, underground streams and a high-water table. Most vegetables only use the top 6" to 8" of soil. You can raise your planting area just by hoeing/raking the soil higher in the planting area so your pathways are lower. I use to weed in the vegetable gardens at Pennsbury Manor and that is what they use to do.

 

[B-Guy]

OK, but what about my suggestion to improve specific areas rather than the entire 100x50?

-ERD50

With the exception of one 100’ row that has asparagus, herbs, rhubarb, and grapes the rest we rotate, like car tires, and give extra room between the plants to prevent diseases, especially in tomatoes, potatoes, and peppers. I’m trying to think of how we could make that work for us. Maybe two rows, one 100’ row on each side of the field.

I’m sure at some point we will have to quit gardening or scale back, but for now this is my DW’s happy place.

 

[B-Guy]

Check out no-dig gardening by Charles Dowding. I have tried this over clay soil and it worked well for creating great plants for the deer to eat.

I Goggled Charles Dowding and found this YouTube video.

His video opened up my eyes. I guess I was fixated on a raised bed being made out of wood and with today’s outrageous lumber prices, I would have to mortgage our home.

His approach is basically a raised bed and only uses wood to create a buffer around the border. I would much rather spend money on a good amount of compost than on 100’s of feet of lumber. I received one quote so far for bulk compost at $35 a yard. I’m not sure if that’s a good price or not. I’ll shop around, but we don’t have a lot of options here. Amazon supplies me with a lot of cardboard. I believe Charles Dowding’s approach should fit our needs well.

You mentioned wildlife getting to your garden. We have a 3-wire electric fence at about 4”, 12” and 32” to keep out critters (deer, raccoons, possums, and rabbits). This has worked well for us.