Observations from a medical clinic parking lot

[garyt]

So, that was $170K up front, and $2050 per month?

What happened if your mom absolutely hated the place and wanted out? Was the entire $170K lost, or would some of it be returned?

My FIL is in one and they don't charge an upfront fee. He pays about $30K a year including meals and some housecleaning. $170K upfront seems ridiculous.

 

[harllee]

My FIL is in one and they don't charge an upfront fee. He pays about $30K a year including meals and some housecleaning. $170K upfront seems ridiculous.

If it is a Type A Life Care CCRC what you are really buying is a guarantee of long term care. At the CCRC we are moving into when you have to move from independent living to assisted living or skilled nursing or memory care your monthly fee does not go up. You don't need to buy long term care insurance.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Amethyst, I am not a minimalist by any means. I hate homes that are bare. I kept the things that I love. I have antiques that have been in my family and some I have bought. I am moving into 855 sq ft condo which is my last home. Sometimes I get sick of some of my pictures or decorations and when I buy new I don’t save the old stuff. So I have enough to make it feel homey without too much. If someone’s home is jam packed with items your eyes have no place to rest and beautiful items are lost in the minutia. I hate homes that feel sterile.

 

[aaronc879]

$170,000 move in fee and $2,050 per month is very reasonable for a CCRC in my opinion. The place where I am on the waiting list charges over double that--but its is a Type A Life Care (you do not pay additional if you have to move into skilled nursing or assisted or memory care).

I can't imagine having so much money that that seems reasonable. I guess my future is staying at home alone until I can't take care of myself then swallowing a bottle of pills.

 

[CindyBlue]

Amethyst, I am not a minimalist by any means. I hate homes that are bare. I kept the things that I love. I have antiques that have been in my family and some I have bought. I am moving into 855 sq ft condo which is my last home. Sometimes I get sick of some of my pictures or decorations and when I buy new I don’t save the old stuff. So I have enough to make it feel homey without too much. If someone’s home is jam packed with items your eyes have no place to rest and beautiful items are lost in the minutia. I hate homes that feel sterile.

I think I am a "Victorian" in habit and in spirit...the only problem I have with that is that dusting is a long process here (smile!)

TeacherTerry, I think about you often and keep my fingers crossed that things are going well in your move and with you...

 

[tb001]

For those making plans for their future CCRC and finances, I’d just like to say thank you. As a child dealing with parents who will not move from their home on many acres they can no longer care for, with outbuildings filled with equipment and years of collecting, it is a complete nightmare. It will take me months to deal with. Add in complete refusal to allow POA, in spite of not being able to manage their finances and having been scammed multiple times out of significant sums, but expecting me to clean up the mess. DM and I had a huge blow up over it yesterday. I’ve spent hours on the phone dealing with trying to reverse charges because they keep compromising their credit cards, and all of it needing to go through a painful ‘verification’ that I’m allowed to speak on their behalf.

I finally told DM yesterday I was no longer willing to help them if they won’t give me POA so I can more easily deal with their finances.

I understand wanting to have your independence and stay in your home, but at some point in most people’s lives it will be a problem. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away. It’s so incredibly frustrating as a child.

 

[shafer9]

The answer is likely yes. Keep moving.


=conversationalphrase;2559304]Yesterday I took DW to a doctor appointment, and because we had mutual errands afterwards I sat in the car and waited for her. This was a small medical building with doctor's offices, lab and physical therapy facilities inside. I couldn't help but notice some of the patients while I was waiting.



1. When I dropped DW off at the door there was a gentleman in a wheelchair calling for a public service van to pick him up and take him home. About twenty minutes later the van arrived.

2. There was a couple that came out of the building, the lady was using a walker. They went to their car, she got in and the man struggled to fold the walker before putting it in the back seat. She held her head in her hand while she was waiting on him.

3. An elderly man got out of his car with a medical boot on one leg, he struggled to walk to the door. He was by himself.



There was more, but you get the idea..... As I sat there I couldn't help but wonder if someday we will be in the same situation, on our own and struggling to do the simplest tasks or worse - dependent on others for help. Fortunately we are both active and healthy - for now.



It was just another reminder to take care of yourself and enjoy life to its fullest while you can.[/QUOTE]

 

[CindyBlue]

For those making plans for their future CCRC and finances, I’d just like to say thank you. As a child dealing with parents who will not move from their home on many acres they can no longer care for, with outbuildings filled with equipment and years of collecting, it is a complete nightmare. It will take me months to deal with. Add in complete refusal to allow POA, in spite of not being able to manage their finances and having been scammed multiple times out of significant sums, but expecting me to clean up the mess. DM and I had a huge blow up over it yesterday. I’ve spent hours on the phone dealing with trying to reverse charges because they keep compromising their credit cards, and all of it needing to go through a painful ‘verification’ that I’m allowed to speak on their behalf.

I finally told DM yesterday I was no longer willing to help them if they won’t give me POA so I can more easily deal with their finances.

I understand wanting to have your independence and stay in your home, but at some point in most people’s lives it will be a problem. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away. It’s so incredibly frustrating as a child.

I just went through that the past three years with my dad. But he gave me his POA (at the very last minute, due to his advancing Alzheimers, thank goodness!) so I was finally able to straighten out his past due bills. And having that POA was a massive help when he had to finally be moved (against his will- it was devastating for both him and me) to a nursing home because he could no longer take care of himself and we could no longer take care of him. It was heartbreaking.

But now, because we had to deal with dad and because I am older myself, I totally understand why he did not want to leave - totally. I do not want to leave my home and lose my independence either, and it would take an illness such as his where I could literally no longer be able to take care of myself for it to happen.

It is not a matter of consideration for those who have to take care of things after I am no longer able to take care of them for myself, though having been through it, I can really understand the burden it causes. Rather it is that this is my home, I built it and live here, and it's my sanctuary. I do not want to leave. I do not want to be in a home or other place where I lose my independence and where others are making decisions for me. I suspect I will fight to the death to not be forced to leave.

Having been through it, I completely empathize with you, really I do. But I think that this pain of dealing with their home and possessions is going to be part of what just has to happen, so those we love can remain in their own space with their own things with their own decision making processes as long as possible. To me, based on my experiences so far, it's just the price we have to pay for having parents.

 

[tb001]

Oh, I totally understand wanting to stay in your home. And I think after a certain point, which they’re long past, the hurdle becomes too great to move. And I’m sure my moms fear re the poa is exactly this. I have no intention of forcing her to move, though selfishly I’d like her to be closer to me so I can help with groceries, etc.

I’m actually a huge proponent of her being able to live her life as she wants to, which includes doing a lot of things that will make mine difficult in the long run. I honestly don’t mind that part, though I’m very appreciative of those making it easier for people. As long as she’s not endangering others, she can stay put as long as she wants! If she blows herself up screwing up the stove, but was able to stay at home, that’s how she would have wanted it. But I already know driving will be the main forcing issue, as she lives in the middle of nowhere and needs to be able to drive.

But the financial stuff I just can’t have. We need to know she will be stable financially in order to plan for our own future. 10 years ago they were scammed out of 1/3 of their life savings. In the last year they have had two instances of bad credit card issues that cost them 1000s of dollars because they weren’t paying attention.

 

[Amethyst]

I guess that is where "taste" figures in.

The different viewpoints about what to keep, are interesting. My back only really goes up when I feel that someone is disparaging an Old person who mourns the beautiful (in their eyes) things, that represented the Game of Life, which now must be accepted as nearly over.

Things are a source of great comfort and joy to many of us. We should not be considered "nuisances" because it is hard to reconcile ourselves to their loss. We should be allowed a bit of raging against the dying of the light, I feel, even when the Right Thing to Do is clear to all.

It's also clear to me that there is a profound difference in "burden to others" between, say, a barn full of old newspapers and broken stuff, plus mice, roaches and goodness knows what filth...and an Old person's home containing many things that simply don't appeal to the heirs. The first is a burden, indeed, and too bad that some people have that mess dumped on their plate. The second is, well, part of having forebears.

Amethyst, I am not a minimalist by any means. I hate homes that are bare. I kept the things that I love. I have antiques that have been in my family and some I have bought. I am moving into 855 sq ft condo which is my last home. Sometimes I get sick of some of my pictures or decorations and when I buy new I don’t save the old stuff. So I have enough to make it feel homey without too much. If someone’s home is jam packed with items your eyes have no place to rest and beautiful items are lost in the minutia. I hate homes that feel sterile.

 

[Amethyst]

So well put, CindyBlue.

I just went through that the past three years with my dad. But he gave me his POA (at the very last minute, due to his advancing Alzheimers, thank goodness!) so I was finally able to straighten out his past due bills. And having that POA was a massive help when he had to finally be moved (against his will- it was devastating for both him and me) to a nursing home because he could no longer take care of himself and we could no longer take care of him. It was heartbreaking.

But now, because we had to deal with dad and because I am older myself, I totally understand why he did not want to leave - totally. I do not want to leave my home and lose my independence either, and it would take an illness such as his where I could literally no longer be able to take care of myself for it to happen.

It is not a matter of consideration for those who have to take care of things after I am no longer able to take care of them for myself, though having been through it, I can really understand the burden it causes. Rather it is that this is my home, I built it and live here, and it's my sanctuary. I do not want to leave. I do not want to be in a home or other place where I lose my independence and where others are making decisions for me. I suspect I will fight to the death to not be forced to leave.

Having been through it, I completely empathize with you, really I do. But I think that this pain of dealing with their home and possessions is going to be part of what just has to happen, so those we love can remain in their own space with their own things with their own decision making processes as long as possible. To me, based on my experiences so far, it's just the price we have to pay for having parents.

 

[Amethyst]

There certainly is a degree of fecklessness here, in refusing to allow the POA. It would seem to be in concert with the scamming, etc. Not able to make rational decisions.

For those making plans for their future CCRC and finances, I’d just like to say thank you. As a child dealing with parents who will not move from their home on many acres they can no longer care for, with outbuildings filled with equipment and years of collecting, it is a complete nightmare. It will take me months to deal with. Add in complete refusal to allow POA, in spite of not being able to manage their finances and having been scammed multiple times out of significant sums, but expecting me to clean up the mess. DM and I had a huge blow up over it yesterday. I’ve spent hours on the phone dealing with trying to reverse charges because they keep compromising their credit cards, and all of it needing to go through a painful ‘verification’ that I’m allowed to speak on their behalf.

I finally told DM yesterday I was no longer willing to help them if they won’t give me POA so I can more easily deal with their finances.

I understand wanting to have your independence and stay in your home, but at some point in most people’s lives it will be a problem. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away. It’s so incredibly frustrating as a child.

 

[audreyh1]

I can't imagine having so much money that that seems reasonable. I guess my future is staying at home alone until I can't take care of myself then swallowing a bottle of pills.

Growing old and needing help is expensive. If you live that long, you are going to pay for it one way or another or go on Medicaid and hope for the best. Compared to alternatives it is reasonable if you are looking for comfort and care at advanced age.

 

[Amethyst]

Someone, I think W2R, made the comment a long while back that "your independence ends when you are depending on others to maintain the fiction that you are independent."

Still, I do not fault people for raging against the inevitable.

 

[audreyh1]

For those making plans for their future CCRC and finances, I’d just like to say thank you. As a child dealing with parents who will not move from their home on many acres they can no longer care for, with outbuildings filled with equipment and years of collecting, it is a complete nightmare. It will take me months to deal with. Add in complete refusal to allow POA, in spite of not being able to manage their finances and having been scammed multiple times out of significant sums, but expecting me to clean up the mess. DM and I had a huge blow up over it yesterday. I’ve spent hours on the phone dealing with trying to reverse charges because they keep compromising their credit cards, and all of it needing to go through a painful ‘verification’ that I’m allowed to speak on their behalf.

I finally told DM yesterday I was no longer willing to help them if they won’t give me POA so I can more easily deal with their finances.

I understand wanting to have your independence and stay in your home, but at some point in most people’s lives it will be a problem. Ignoring that doesn’t make it go away. It’s so incredibly frustrating as a child.

Many of us do not have children, and can’t count on other relatives stepping in, so we have to plan head for ourselves and our spouses.

 

[tb001]

Someone, I think W2R, made the comment a long while back that "your independence ends when you are depending on others to maintain the fiction that you are independent."

Still, I do not fault people for raging against the inevitable.

Very well put

And Audrey, my mother has been nothing but a planner her entire life! Which is partly how I know there’s a problem.

I understand wanting beauty and comfort around you, whether that’s in the form of things or environment/views. I can’t ever imagine taking that away unless absolutely necessary. But I will have not one, but multiple completely full barns on my plate when the time comes. With mice and and rattlesnakes and poisonous spiders galore. That’s ok, because I understand it better than I’d like. But the financial/bill part is a mess.

Apologies for going so off topic. Hit a nerve today.

 

[harllee]

My answer - the earlier the better.

There are few reasons why you move to such a place CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community).

1. You have retired from work but not from life, so you need a community where you can be alive with many activities and enjoy your hobbies. Keep you "young."

2. Avoid loneliness. Loss of a spouse on a man is harder than on a woman. Having a great support structure of people in such a community keeps you away from going bonkers with loneliness and getting depression.

3. Time comes when the "machine" starts breaking down and you don't want to burden your spouse or kids. This becomes a nightmare with a neurological disease like Parkinson's and Dementia. A person can live from 7-12 years making it extremely hard on the caregiver (Saw it personally with my brother. His wife took care of him for 12+ years and then she died also in 2 years with colon cancer. Miserable years of their lives. The cost of nursing homes is prohibitive, and most are subpar. Long-term insurance is expensive and not adequate.

After 5 years of three cancer surgery and an awful near-death Chemo, we moved to a 5-star resort place CCRC for the above three reasons.

I have created an exhaustive document on why one should think of going to such a place, and how to choose one. It is an almost 40 pages long document with many resource links and books.



You can get it at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkRo92IWiiSWGh6QrfqN-YDpq0ge34HLmz0-zvkYnU4/edit. Feel free to contact me if you need more guidance..

jayanu, thank you for this document, it sounds like you are in a great CCRC. I am on the waiting list to get into a very similar Type A Lifecare CCRC in my area. One question I have is about the impact of Covid on your day to day life. I assume all in person events and activities have been put on hold or are now virtual and that your dining rooms are closed and meals are delivered to your apartment. How have you adjusted to this? Do you still think you are getting a good value for your money?

 

[CindyBlue]

Oh, I totally understand wanting to stay in your home. And I think after a certain point, which they’re long past, the hurdle becomes too great to move. And I’m sure my moms fear re the poa is exactly this. I have no intention of forcing her to move, though selfishly I’d like her to be closer to me so I can help with groceries, etc.

I’m actually a huge proponent of her being able to live her life as she wants to, which includes doing a lot of things that will make mine difficult in the long run. I honestly don’t mind that part, though I’m very appreciative of those making it easier for people. As long as she’s not endangering others, she can stay put as long as she wants! If she blows herself up screwing up the stove, but was able to stay at home, that’s how she would have wanted it. But I already know driving will be the main forcing issue, as she lives in the middle of nowhere and needs to be able to drive.

But the financial stuff I just can’t have. We need to know she will be stable financially in order to plan for our own future. 10 years ago they were scammed out of 1/3 of their life savings. In the last year they have had two instances of bad credit card issues that cost them 1000s of dollars because they weren’t paying attention.

Oh, am I so very sympathetic - and empathetic!! - to your situation! By the time we figured out that dad couldn't manage his finances anymore, he'd spent down his 401k to nothing just the month before by withdrawing so much at a time that it couldn't sustain itself. We found multiple new (and some even unregistered) debit cards and credit cards, indicating that he'd lost them repeatedly and had to order new ones. When we finally, via the POA, got access to his bank account, we discovered that two years ago he had a few large purchases (in the thousands) charged at a Lowe's Hardware that he'd never been to, located a long way way from here. And many bills not paid with lots of late charges. He had written on each bill a note to "Pay this" or "Call to ask [question]" - he was trying so hard to pay his bills, but his mental state wouldn't let him complete the action. I just cried and cried as I dealt with all this and more...my very organized, scrupulously on time with his bill paying dad, reduced to this state... It took a long long time to get it all straightened out, and we had to pay a lot of his bills ourselves, but we finally did.

Something else that helped us more than we had expected it would was that we contacted Adult Protective Services. Turns out that they not only protect against others abusing senior citizens, but they help when elders are not able to protect themselves. I was leery of contacting them because I thought they might get on our case about something (i.e, think that we were trying to take advantage of dad) but instead they were very supportive and very helpful as we went through the process of getting dad the help he needed.

My heart goes out to you...it will not be easy. If you can get that POA, it will be SO helpful - the only other way for us would have been to go through the courts to have him declared incompetent and grant us the right to be his guardian, and that would have been very expensive and frankly a nightmare.

I will be thinking of you and praying for you...

 

[nap470]

Still, I do not fault people for raging against the inevitable.

A reminder of one of my favorite poems - Do not go gentle into that good night - Dylan Thomas

https://www.cgcs.org/cms/lib/DC0000...oem_Do_not_go_gentle_into_that_good_night.pdf

 

[StillFiguringItOut]

I can't imagine having so much money that that seems reasonable. I guess my future is staying at home alone until I can't take care of myself then swallowing a bottle of pills.

Good luck swallowing those pills. Most deliberate pill overdose attempts fail. My 88 yo friend swallowed 80+ OxyContin pills she had squirreled away this summer, depressed by covid isolation, and the failure of many of her body parts. It didn’t work, and she was whisked off to the hospital, where the powers that be put her in the mental part of the hospital. It was a job getting her out of there.

 

[Koolau]

My answer - the earlier the better.

There are few reasons why you move to such a place CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community).

1. You have retired from work but not from life, so you need a community where you can be alive with many activities and enjoy your hobbies. Keep you "young."

2. Avoid loneliness. Loss of a spouse on a man is harder than on a woman. Having a great support structure of people in such a community keeps you away from going bonkers with loneliness and getting depression.

3. Time comes when the "machine" starts breaking down and you don't want to burden your spouse or kids. This becomes a nightmare with a neurological disease like Parkinson's and Dementia. A person can live from 7-12 years making it extremely hard on the caregiver (Saw it personally with my brother. His wife took care of him for 12+ years and then she died also in 2 years with colon cancer. Miserable years of their lives. The cost of nursing homes is prohibitive, and most are subpar. Long-term insurance is expensive and not adequate.

After 5 years of three cancer surgery and an awful near-death Chemo, we moved to a 5-star resort place CCRC for the above three reasons.

I have created an exhaustive document on why one should think of going to such a place, and how to choose one. It is an almost 40 pages long document with many resource links and books.

You can get it at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkRo92IWiiSWGh6QrfqN-YDpq0ge34HLmz0-zvkYnU4/edit. Feel free to contact me if you need more guidance..

Thanks for the exhaustive document. I'll save it and attempt to get through it soon. To be honest, I've avoided thinking about it since DW and I toured some facilities - all lovely and (one would hope) as good as they claim to be. BUT they force you to think about the inevitable, they're expensive, some require up-front (not fully refundable) deposits or buy ins, they're sort of "the last stop" on the way to the cemetery (sorry, only way I could think of to say it.), did I mention they are expensive?

Thanks again!

 

[Teacher Terry]

Now that I am single I made a new will and healthcare POA. I have a notebook with all my account passwords, etc for my kids if they need to help me. I will give them a financial one when necessary. My parents were very good about this type of stuff and moved into a apartment. I think that people that stay in a huge house with outer buildings full of stuff are selfish. Hopefully they leave enough money behind for the kids to hire 1-800- got- junk to come take it all away.

 

[Amethyst]

Plus, you are surrounded by everyone else who's on their way out. I know our beloved Imoldernu loved his CCRC, but even he spoke warily of the day when they'd have to move to the next care level.

My sister was in a very well-respected nursing home/rehab facility for a month last year, for rehab. Luckily her insurance provided a private room, and she spoke highly of the staff. She was very aware of the "residential" population. Could see them shuffling past her door, and hear demented ones yelling.

As much as she hates physical therapy, she cited the grim atmosphere as the incentive to double down on her tasks so she could go home. She says she still has nightmares.

BUT they force you to think about the inevitable, they're expensive, some require up-front (not fully refundable) deposits or buy ins, they're sort of "the last stop" on the way to the cemetery (sorry, only way I could think of to say it.), did I mention they are expensive?

Thanks again!