Observations from a medical clinic parking lot

[audreyh1]

Friends live in a CCRC where they have their own multi-room house with a yard - not quite a townhouse as there is no shared wall -more like a corner as buildings are staggered. Bigger than most apartments.

So it’s nothing like slumming in a dorm hall!

 

[Koolau]

Well, I guess I have a selfish underlying personality too, because to be without my stuff is awful to contemplate.

Maybe your kids and grandkids will be more accommodating than MIL's were. We stuffed everything of hers we could fit into her 1br apt. She wanted EVERYTHING from her 2-story "museum" of collections. After DW found MIL on the floor of the "museum" (probably for 24 or more hours of "I've fallen and I can't get up" but no "panic button" because she didn't "want one") we made the decision to help her find an assisted living set up. Life can turn out not so sweet sometimes. YMMV

 

[Bamaman]

We had my mother in a CCRC. It cost $170 cash on front end and $2050 per month for a 1 bedroom apartment including 20 meals per month. The place was plush, and I got a kick when the ladies taught their Dutch chef how to make cornbread the proper southern way.

My mom was fully functioning socially, however at 89 she needed to be watched all the time. 24 hour care cost $12 an hour on average.

She was going through her money fast, and she was down to her last $5K when she passed. God knew it was time. She really enjoyed her time there, however. But it sure was expensive.

 

[harllee]

We had my mother in a CCRC. It cost $170 cash on front end and $2050 per month for a 1 bedroom apartment including 20 meals per month. The place was plush, and I got a kick when the ladies taught their Dutch chef how to make cornbread the proper southern way.

My mom was fully functioning socially, however at 89 she needed to be watched all the time. 24 hour care cost $12 an hour on average.

She was going through her money fast, and she was down to her last $5K when she passed. God knew it was time. She really enjoyed her time there, however. But it sure was expensive.

$170,000 move in fee and $2,050 per month is very reasonable for a CCRC in my opinion. The place where I am on the waiting list charges over double that--but its is a Type A Life Care (you do not pay additional if you have to move into skilled nursing or assisted or memory care).

 

[audreyh1]

We had my mother in a CCRC. It cost $170 cash on front end and $2050 per month for a 1 bedroom apartment including 20 meals per month. The place was plush, and I got a kick when the ladies taught their Dutch chef how to make cornbread the proper southern way.

My mom was fully functioning socially, however at 89 she needed to be watched all the time. 24 hour care cost $12 an hour on average.

She was going through her money fast, and she was down to her last $5K when she passed. God knew it was time. She really enjoyed her time there, however. But it sure was expensive.

Yeah, that 24 hour care sure adds up!

 

[audreyh1]

$170,000 move in fee and $2,050 per month is very reasonable for a CCRC in my opinion. The place where I am on the waiting list charges over double that--but its is a Type A Life Care (you do not pay additional if you have to move into skilled nursing or assisted or memory care).

Is your expected CCRC cost for two people?

 

[CindyBlue]

Wow, I had to force myself to read through all the posts here...force because I know I need to "face up to the future" but to me, it's depressing to think about it. Over the past two years, we just went through my dad's decline with Alzheimer's and his last year in a nursing home. I don't want to end up like that....sigh... But the information here, while hard to read, was enlightening and educational. Thanks, everyone.

 

[djsander]

This topic reminds me of the time my wife and I stopped along I10 in Florida to have an early supper. We were in our early 50s and stood waiting for our table. As we looked around we noted we were probably the youngest ones there. As we stood there we watched a gentlemen going to stand up to leave he would start up and then sit back down. After 4 or 5 try’s he finally stood up. We knew that one day that we would be there and will do what we can to stay strong and healthy. However, time waits for no person.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm completely empathetic with her unhappiness at having to accept the horrible reality that everything you've collected and treasured is going beyond your reach, while you are still alive and cognizant enough to miss it.

Too bad if she can't quite muster what it takes to pretend that she's OK with it.

Why everyone expects old ladies to be saints is beyond me.

Maybe your kids and grandkids will be more accommodating than MIL's were. We stuffed everything of hers we could fit into her 1br apt. She wanted EVERYTHING from her 2-story "museum" of collections. After DW found MIL on the floor of the "museum" (probably for 24 or more hours of "I've fallen and I can't get up" but no "panic button" because she didn't "want one") we made the decision to help her find an assisted living set up. Life can turn out not so sweet sometimes. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

I'm completely empathetic with her unhappiness at having to accept the horrible reality that everything you've collected and treasured is going beyond your reach, while you are still alive and cognizant enough to miss it.

Too bad if she can't quite muster what it takes to pretend that she's OK with it.

Why everyone expects old ladies to be saints is beyond me.

Trust me, I knew MIL for a very long time. I never heard anyone accuse her of being a saint - even when things were going well. MIL simply would not accept that things in her life had changed. I understand her frustration and sense of loss, but it's not helpful to pine for what was at the expense of what is left. MIL was never abused nor did she lack for anything she needed. There simply was NO way to accommodate a life that she wanted. After strokes or dementia and physical infirmities, she simply could no longer live in her "museum" and she had to have help.

Many, if not most of her health issues, were of her own doing (not treating her diabetes, for instance). We did what we could to help her transition to a new stage of life. Her son had guardianship as MIL was no longer capable of dealing with her finances, etc. We spent her money to make her as happy as possible - with zero thought of what would be left as an inheritance (there was none - and we were fine with that - even glad that we had spent HER money on HER.)

I guess you just had to be there. Probably enough said as YMMV.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

We had my mother in a CCRC. It cost $170 cash on front end and $2050 per month for a 1 bedroom apartment including 20 meals per month. The place was plush, and I got a kick when the ladies taught their Dutch chef how to make cornbread the proper southern way.

My mom was fully functioning socially, however at 89 she needed to be watched all the time. 24 hour care cost $12 an hour on average.

She was going through her money fast, and she was down to her last $5K when she passed. God knew it was time. She really enjoyed her time there, however. But it sure was expensive.

So, that was $170K up front, and $2050 per month?

What happened if your mom absolutely hated the place and wanted out? Was the entire $170K lost, or would some of it be returned?

 

[harllee]

So, that was $170K up front, and $2050 per month?

What happened if your mom absolutely hated the place and wanted out? Was the entire $170K lost, or would some of it be returned?

Most CCRCs have several options on how refunds are treated--you can pay more on the front end and at your death a portion (usually 50%) goes back to your heirs. In addition all the CCRCs I have looked at refund some of your entrance fee for a period of time if you decide you do not like it and want to move out. The CCRC I am most familiar with gives you a 2 year window to get your money back on an amortized scale. I ask that CCRC how many people moved out and wanted their money back and they said very few. They said that there had only been one person in the last few years who moved out and wanted their money back and everyone was glad to see him go.

 

[Amethyst]

No, I fully realize her wishes and reality couldn't intersect. The family had no choice. That doesn't make me feel any less sorry for her. I love my stuff, all the art I have made, etc. and when the time comes to move into a cramped little space, I will have to make do. But it will be like a down payment on Hell. Poor lady.

Trust me, I knew MIL for a very long time. I never heard anyone accuse her of being a saint - even when things were going well. MIL simply would not accept that things in her life had changed. I understand her frustration and sense of loss, but it's not helpful to pine for what was at the expense of what is left. MIL was never abused nor did she lack for anything she needed. There simply was NO way to accommodate a life that she wanted. After strokes or dementia and physical infirmities, she simply could no longer live in her "museum" and she had to have help.

Many, if not most of her health issues, were of her own doing (not treating her diabetes, for instance). We did what we could to help her transition to a new stage of life. Her son had guardianship as MIL was no longer capable of dealing with her finances, etc. We spent her money to make her as happy as possible - with zero thought of what would be left as an inheritance (there was none - and we were fine with that - even glad that we had spent HER money on HER.)

I guess you just had to be there. Probably enough said as YMMV.

 

[Teacher Terry]

It’s interesting that I have become much less attached to my stuff as I have aged. I have downsized so much that I only have 25 plastic bins with lids that holds everything but my clothes and furniture/pictures. I am moving into a 855 Sq ft condo.

 

[nwsteve]

Most CCRCs have several options on how refunds are treated--you can pay more on the front end and at your death a portion (usually 50%) goes back to your heirs. In addition all the CCRCs I have looked at refund some of your entrance fee for a period of time if you decide you do not like it and want to move out. The CCRC I am most familiar with gives you a 2 year window to get your money back on an amortized scale. I ask that CCRC how many people moved out and wanted their money back and they said very few. They said that there had only been one person in the last few years who moved out and wanted their money back and everyone was glad to see him go.

Another example. We have four options at our CCRC. One called Traditional has the lowest entry fee but you have zero going to heirs after 5 years. Entry fee amortizes at 20%/year to zero in 60 mon. Upon entry, you do have 90 days trial for a full refund.
Our other plans provide choices of balance to heirs of 50,75, or 90% refund but entry fee is materially higher than Traditional Plan.
This type of complexity is part of the reason there is no one right answer as every couple has different views, values, and needs.

 

[Amethyst]

It must be a lot easier to be like you! But none of us can help what we are at the core. At core, I am a stuff person, coming from a family of them. My Dad was the only exception. All he really cared about in the "stuff" line was cars.

And don't tell me I can't take it with me. That's for when I'm dead, not merely ancient.

It’s interesting that I have become much less attached to my stuff as I have aged. I have downsized so much that I only have 25 plastic bins with lids that holds everything but my clothes and furniture/pictures. I am moving into a 855 Sq ft condo.

 

[RobLJ]

A Herrick fan! 17th Century poetry is grrrrrreattt!

Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old Time is still a-flying;
And this same flower that smiles today
Tomorrow will be dying.


-Robert Herrick

 

[Teacher Terry]

Amethyst, I used to be very attached to my stuff. Then we had to move ourselves halfway across the country for jobs. We lived in a 3 story house and there were 5 of us. Only so much fits in a uhaul truck. I had to sell or give away a bunch of stuff within a week. Then 4 years later divorced my husband and moved across the country by myself. Read the book “Your Money or Your Life.” This got me thinking about how much life energy it took to buy things. Then I realized I preferred experiences to things. Then I also realized that the less stuff I had the easier it is to clean. It was a long process starting in 1993.

 

[jayanu]

I agree. I have seen similar things, even with people my age or younger. In pre-covid days we went to a nursing home for Christmas, and I was surprised to see the number of people in there 50s and 60s who were there. I see things like that and cannot help but wonder "why not me?"


I just hope not to get bitter as I physically deteriorate, and instead appreciate the times that I was active, even when I am no longer active.

Longevity (Average age) in the USA. Depending on the source these numbers vary slightly.

Male: 76.1 years - Average life expectancy of a US male (at birth).
Female: 81.1 years - Average life expectancy of a US female (at birth)

Male over 65: lifespan expectancy is 18.1 years.
Female over 65: lifespan expectancy is 20.6 years.

Point is that this is average so you would see people dying earlier as well as later. How they die is based on many factors including genetics, diseases, natural disasters (including war), etc. Very few are lucky to die, while being healthy, and get a heart attack. So, what you see is the natural decay of the "machine" as it ages. Many do not take good care of the "machine" and so suffer before kicking the bucket.

I know two cases where a healthy person died peacefully. My father was a chain smoker but not even a hint of cancer. In the morning he got tea in the bed, my niece went to get the newspaper. When she came back, the cup was on the side table and he had covered himself all the way to the head and was gone - very peacefully.

My neighbor, a pastor, a wonderful man, thin, tall healthy 92 years old. Walked every day even in cold weather at 9:00 PM. A few weeks ago, he came back from this walk in the cold at 8:30 PM, went to the bathroom, came out, and told his wife that he is not feeling well. Before the nurse could come (in our CCRC we have 24 hr RN) - 5 minutes and he was gone.

I know a couple in my Mother-in-law's nursing home who had a great philosophy. His wife passed away - Dementia. I went to console him. He said, "Look when God sent us, he put in the return ticket in us. We don't know the date of the return journey and the vehicle of the journey." We could die quickly with a heart attack or suffer for years with Dementia, Parkinson's, or whatever. He died in 2 months with COPD.

So, take good care of the "machine", enjoy life, and accept the reality that we all will go so be kind to each other and ourselves. We are not taking anything with us, but we will leave a memory by our actions that people will remember. Some for centuries, some will say - good riddance.

 

[jayanu]

Attachment

Amethyst, I used to be very attached to my stuff. Then we had to move ourselves halfway across the country for jobs. We lived in a 3 story house and there were 5 of us. Only so much fits in a uhaul truck. I had to sell or give away a bunch of stuff within a week. Then 4 years later divorced my husband and moved across the country by myself. Read the book “Your Money or Your Life.” This got me thinking about how much life energy it took to buy things. Then I realized I preferred experiences to things. Then I also realized that the less stuff I had the easier it is to clean. It was a long process starting in 1993.

Parents of a friend of mine in Chicago moved to FL. Father died. Mother was a hoarder. When she died, my friend had to fly every two weeks to clean up the "stuff" that no one wanted. Simplify the life for yourself and simplify for the loved one that you will leave behind!

 

[jayanu]

Any personal insight on when to acquire or start looking for that kind of place? I was going to wait till 70-ish to start building my list but since the heart attack it's been moved up. However, jumping the gun has some drawbacks. I feel like I am making "The Final Arrangement" as if I were 99 yrs old. This can actually be bad for one's psychological well-being. And then there's the worser case scenario: What if I actually live a long time without much in the way of these encumbrances and my cost of living skyrockets a decade or more before it needs to?

And they said 14 was "that awkward age."

My answer - the earlier the better.

There are few reasons why you move to such a place CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community).

1. You have retired from work but not from life, so you need a community where you can be alive with many activities and enjoy your hobbies. Keep you "young."

2. Avoid loneliness. Loss of a spouse on a man is harder than on a woman. Having a great support structure of people in such a community keeps you away from going bonkers with loneliness and getting depression.

3. Time comes when the "machine" starts breaking down and you don't want to burden your spouse or kids. This becomes a nightmare with a neurological disease like Parkinson's and Dementia. A person can live from 7-12 years making it extremely hard on the caregiver (Saw it personally with my brother. His wife took care of him for 12+ years and then she died also in 2 years with colon cancer. Miserable years of their lives. The cost of nursing homes is prohibitive, and most are subpar. Long-term insurance is expensive and not adequate.

After 5 years of three cancer surgery and an awful near-death Chemo, we moved to a 5-star resort place CCRC for the above three reasons.

I have created an exhaustive document on why one should think of going to such a place, and how to choose one. It is an almost 40 pages long document with many resource links and books.

You can get it at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkRo92IWiiSWGh6QrfqN-YDpq0ge34HLmz0-zvkYnU4/edit. Feel free to contact me if you need more guidance..

 

[Amethyst]

That was a long journey for you. I've had an equally long and varied journey, which has only emphasized to me the importance of being surrounded by beauty. Instead of getting rid of everything, I've focused on replacing with higher quality. In the end I cannot "take it with me," but that doesn't matter once one is dead!

Amethyst, I used to be very attached to my stuff. Then we had to move ourselves halfway across the country for jobs. We lived in a 3 story house and there were 5 of us. Only so much fits in a uhaul truck. I had to sell or give away a bunch of stuff within a week. Then 4 years later divorced my husband and moved across the country by myself. Read the book “Your Money or Your Life.” This got me thinking about how much life energy it took to buy things. Then I realized I preferred experiences to things. Then I also realized that the less stuff I had the easier it is to clean. It was a long process starting in 1993.

 

[Amethyst]

I have no qualms about what other people will choose to do with my things. They should do quite well with an estate sale.

Why does everyone assume that a person who likes stuff, must be the type who hoards old newspapers and five of everything? Some of us have taste,not to mention organizational skills.

Parents of a friend of mine in Chicago moved to FL. Father died. Mother was a hoarder. When she died, my friend had to fly every two weeks to clean up the "stuff" that no one wanted. Simplify the life for yourself and simplify for the loved one that you will leave behind!

 

[CindyBlue]

I have no qualms about what other people will choose to do with my things. They should do quite well with an estate sale.

Why does everyone assume that a person who likes stuff, must be the type who hoards old newspapers and five of everything? Some of us have taste,not to mention organizational skills.

I am with you, Amythyst. I don't have a whole lot of "junk." I do have beautiful pictures inherited from my grandparents, lots of spinning and weaving tools, a couple of antique sewing machines (from the civil war era or close,) and objets d'arts collected for years from our travels and from long time collecting. They are valuable and they make me happy - each time I look at one, I remember where we got it and the trip etc. And yes, I have two sets of dishes and silver flatware and crystal glasses.

My mom loved to collect, and her mother, too. We all used to sell at the flea markets and antique shows...to "recycle" and to "trade up," as we call it (smile!) but not anymore...it's mostly online now. Just yesterday I sold a piece of art to an auction house online, so I can still trade, but it's nowhere near as much fun...sigh...

Having been to many, many estate sales, I can testify that someday mine will be a very popular one (smile!)

 

[Bamaman]

So, that was $170K up front, and $2050 per month?

What happened if your mom absolutely hated the place and wanted out? Was the entire $170K lost, or would some of it be returned?

The CCRC was extremely plush, and it's not one of those places any normal person would ever hate.

At my mother's death, we got 90% of the $170K back. It was technically a "security deposit" but in actuality their way of keeping the riff raff out of the CCRC. It assured them that they'd have residents that wouldn't run out of money.