Proposition: Early Retirement is Selfish

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Sure, nice rich fellow like you thats selflessly working can afford all that starbucks.

We househusbands have to swill Dunkin Donuts crud.

Your stuff could end up beating out the chic competitor before you know it - the franchises are going nuts, even as Krispy Kream goes down the krapper. Look what's happening.

Tried some Dunkin coffee a few weeks ago and it was very good. I prefer it to Starbucks for being less bitter. Wish I could allow myself to eat the donuts more often but I have my limits.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Especially we morally questionable househusbands that like gladiator movies...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Tried some Dunkin coffee a few weeks ago and it was very good. I prefer it to Starbucks for being less bitter. Wish I could allow myself to eat the donuts more often but I have my limits.

Its actually pretty good coffee if you're not into the winey more bitter stuff like starbucks, although I do enjoy that once in a while. Our local Costco has a huge coffee roaster and you can get a bag thats still warm, roasted to a variety of levels...when I'm in the mood for a few dozen pots of the stronger stuff we get that for $10 for a couple of pounds.

The Dunkin Donuts coffee subscription is a pretty good deal. They give you a discount on the price per bag by having them ship it automatically, and the shipping isnt too horrible. I think I'm paying about $6.50 for a full 16 oz pound (not the faux "12 ounce pound" thats now the standard), and I'm getting 5lbs shipped for under $10 shipping fees.

If the donuts concern you, eat those nice french crullers. Lots of air in those helps counteract the fat. Maybe makes you lighter as a result and the puffiness may fight cholesterol. Or eat a beignet...your body wont know what that means and will pass it as inert fiber.

 

[Khan]

What an interesting thread. I'm sorry to be coming in so late. Most of the issues/philosophies have been touched on, but I'm left wondering "what is the value of work anyway?" A lot of the work I see people doing everyday seems worthless, to me, in the larger metaphysical sense. Barista, retail clerk, thinking up new software games, stock broker, etc. etc. They keep the economy going, pay taxes. Big deal.

I'd never set myself up as judge and jury on others' occupations. In a capitalist society a lot of what people end up doing is making up their own livelihood. Who is to judge whether what you do with your life is of value to others?

I spent twenty years as basically a full-time parent, although I did contribute some part-time work to society. Now I don't work full time because society chooses not to value my masters' degree or my work history. Age discrimination is rampant in our society. I could get a full time retail job, I suppose, but I don't need to work. So I don't.

Anyone who thinks I'm being selfish can stuff it.

Huey Lewis And The News - Workin' For A Livin' Lyrics - Workin' For A Livin' - Lyrics On Demand

Somedays won't end ever and somedays pass on by,
I'll be working here forever, at least until I die.

 

[Nords]

Our local Costco has a huge coffee roaster and you can get a bag thats still warm, roasted to a variety of levels...when I'm in the mood for a few dozen pots of the stronger stuff we get that for $10 for a couple of pounds.

Man, I'm going to have to go looking for that at our Costco. Spouse practically had to drag me away from the customer roasting display at Kauai Coffee Co.

I know people have written off Krispy Kreme, but around here fundraisers will actually bring in a planeload from Kahului and sell boxes of them on street corners. Drivers will start to pass by and then screech to a halt on the curb when they realize what they're seeing...

 

[W2R]

Or eat a beignet...your body wont know what that means and will pass it as inert fiber.

Now that is a great fantasy!

 

[TickTock]

Still open if there is anything new to add.

I hope something here qualifies as new. Thank you.


bongo2,

This is a consolidated reply to your posts of today without quoting.

• Yes, this thread is my fault. You posted elsewhere that ER was selfish, and I challenged you to start a thread such as this one to debate it, and you did, knowing that you would take a lot of grief. Guilty as charged! And I still say you are courageous to start the thread, knowing that.

• Yes, many folks say ER is selfish – BUT they also say that working is selfish. You make a case that certain types of ER are selfish, and in fact detrimental to society, in a way that working isn’t. There is a difference.

• “Dropping out of society” vs. “Dropping out of productive society” – I still claim that having the capital that produces gains sufficient to provide for one’s consumption by definition establishes one as productive. This is, I think, one of our basic disagreements.

• Your posts do indicate a value to “important” vs. “frivolous” activities. How these categories are determined is not defined.

• You agree that savings are a factor and that ERs are different from those who are “free-loaders and never contributed”. Perhaps our main disagreement is how much wise stewardship of capital matters.

• You state that Bill Watterson has contributed more to society than you, so he deserves to do whatever he likes with his time. Okay, so contributing ‘enough’ makes ER morally acceptable. Once again, I claim that saving enough to sustain one’s chosen lifestyle demonstrates contributing ‘enough’. What say you?

 

[Meadbh]

What is FIRE, if not a change in the distribution curves of income and expenses over time? Those who continue to toil do so because they may, or because they must (which happens when expenses exceed earnings). This is not right, nor is it wrong. It is just a different way of organizing one's life.

FIN

 

[Retire Soon]

I spent twenty years as basically a full-time parent, although I did contribute some part-time work to society. . .

Oldbabe, if you spent twenty years as a full-time parent, you did indeed contribute full-time to society. America needs good children as they become responsible adults who later become contributors to society.

 

[maddythebeagle]

Sure, nice rich fellow like you thats selflessly working can afford all that starbucks.

We househusbands have to swill Dunkin Donuts crud.

I was thinking this thread is more of a "Chase and Sanborn"

YouTube - 1970's Chase & Sanborn Coffee Commercial

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Man, I'm going to have to go looking for that at our Costco.

Its the only one I've seen, and I've been in a good dozen or so Costco's.

I know people have written off Krispy Kreme, but around here fundraisers will actually bring in a planeload from Kahului and sell boxes of them on street corners. Drivers will start to pass by and then screech to a halt on the curb when they realize what they're seeing...

I've had a krispy kreme donut on several occasions. Frankly I dont get it. They're kind of a small donut and they're way overpriced. Nothing special. Shoot, our local supermarket sells a dozen of them, pretty much a day old, for $8.99. I'd rather go over to the bread aisle and get a dozen Entenmanns for $3.99. And grab one of their cheese coffee cakes for another $3.99.

Your choice: a 24 oz ribeye/porterhouse steak or 12 small day old donuts for the same money.

No brainer. The steak is probably better for you too.

I dont think Krispy Kremes financial problems have anything to do with low carb crazes or any other financial function...its just a so-so product thats hideously overpriced.

By the way, I think In-And-Out burgers suck too.

All of which goes to make me think...hmm...Gabe has never had a donut...

But he's tried in-and-out and only wanted to eat the tomato off of it.

 

[Rob]

Few are REALLY selfish

Well, I'm usually the one that asks for advice on this site and get it. So here are my two cents or suggestions.

I've skimmed most of the posts and I guess the gut feeling I have is that Bongo is not able to achieve early retirement and feels a certain sense of jealousy, and this might be his way of striking back. We've all experienced jealousy in some form or another, and have ways of making our life seem less difficult, like starting a thread to "try" and stir up some guilty feelings of the people we feel a certain jealousy for.

On the other hand, I agree with the notion that a person's life should be productive for society, even after leaving the work force. Where I disagree with Bongo is what he defines as productive. Everyone here has families, and the love within a family could not be anymore unselfish and productive in my opinion. The advice you all give to others on this website is unselfish, and you genuinely feel the need to help. As an ER, you smile more, and this certainly has an affect on others around you. There are so many ways to be productive, and many of them have no real structure to them.

At 61 years of age I'm still teaching as a full time science teacher, and I am exhausted!!!!!!!!! I have vowed this is my last year of full time teaching, and will continue to be productive whether it be tutoring one hour a day, do substitute teaching, or smiling a lot more to people around me because I am so happy to NOT need to work. Being happy to those around you is productive living. It rubs off on others.

This is hokey post, but the bottom line is very few people are "selfish" in my sense of the term.

Rob

 

[TickTock]

After re-reading my last post, it doesn't seem to me that there was anything new in it; just a summarization of things I've posted earlier. Perhaps it is time to lock the thread.

 

[Nords]

Its the only one I've seen, and I've been in a good dozen or so Costco's.

Bummer. Ours is surrounded by a Starbucks and a Seattle's Best, too, so they probably hesitate to mix it up with them.

I've had a krispy kreme donut on several occasions. Frankly I dont get it. They're kind of a small donut and they're way overpriced. Nothing special. Shoot, our local supermarket sells a dozen of them, pretty much a day old, for $8.99. I'd rather go over to the bread aisle and get a dozen Entenmanns for $3.99. And grab one of their cheese coffee cakes for another $3.99.

Artificial scarcity. They're the best doughnuts for 2500 miles in every direction!

 

[Moemg]

On the other hand, I agree with the notion that a person's life should be productive for society, even after leaving the work force.

I was very productive today . I composed personalized letters from Santa and sent them to my SO's grandchildren .They love getting them and I love doing it .

 

[JonnyM]

Krispy Creme, gotta be hot of the presses

The odd Donut picked up at the corner or from the SuperMarket doesn't tell the story. The thing has to be hot to the touch, barely seconds of that funky conveyor belt system they use to get your attention inside the stores. Once they cool off, very ordinary, even less than compared to any decent Bakery. We went through a short term addiction about 5 years ago when they first opened up a branch in our little burg. Like pure uncut smack! But after some disappointments in the drive thru late at night, not getting the really HOT of the grill ones, we eventually tapered off, and now we've both been clean and sober for 4 years. I still like a VenteMochaFrapWithWip at leat once a week from Starbucks. While the donut chain folded a year ago, we now have like 10 starbucks in a relatively small city. I prefer Seattles Best for my homebrew, sipping some right now, umm umm good.

Oh and back to on topic. I don't see ER as selfish. It's just a different albiet quite rare path down life's road. I have a feeling when we finally make our move to a low cost depressed area with few job prospects and cheap land values, the local economy is going to be quite happy with our additional funds being added to the mix, whether I volunteer at the Libarary or not.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Roger that, Jonny. As a early adopter of KK, I agree that they are only good hot from the actual KK store, not some grocer who got them delivered who knows when. And the coffee is delicious at KK as well. I never imagined other parts of the country would "get Krispy Kreme". We always considered it a Carolinas thing.

 

[Dawg52]

I actually went to work this morning for a couple of hours. Had a meeting with my replacement and old boss about a couple of 'work' issues. Gave my advice and then headed for the golf course.

I felt sooooooooo much better about myself. Actually made a contribution to the working world.

 

[M Paquette]

I'm being highly unselfish, IMHO...

I'm feeling overworked and burned out, and so having met FI I'm going to RE in March. Selfish? I don't think so.

So far my boss has hired three people to take over my workload, and I'm training them. So, by leaving the workforce, I'm creating two new jobs as well as an opening for my current position.

Then, in retirement, I'm looking into pursuing a fine arts degree in photography, so that I may provide the world with beautiful and inspiring Art.

I am making the world a better place, I am!

 

[SteveR]

I am unlocking $$$ tied up in assets so I can continue to be a consumer. Just because I don't w*rk for a wage does not mean I don't create value for the general good. ER moves money stored in assets and in banks and puts it back on the street again where it buys goods and services and allows someone else a wage so they can eventually stop working and continue the cycle.

 

[W2R]

I am unlocking $$$ tied up in assets so I can continue to be a consumer. Just because I don't w*rk for a wage does not mean I don't create value for the general good. ER moves money stored in assets and in banks and puts it back on the street again where it buys goods and services and allows someone else a wage so they can eventually stop working and continue the cycle.

So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!

 

[Lsbcal]

So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!

We're not talking about mere expensive shoes ... we're talking really Big Screen TV's .

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!

You're killing me, W2R.

I can't for the life of me understand why people are still replying to this thread justifying why ER isn't selfish.

It's so obvious: shoes! Or in Steve's case, RV's!

 

[SteveR]

You're killing me, W2R.

...
It's so obvious: shoes! Or in Steve's case, RV's!

Well Duh!

 

[Zoocat]

So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!

Yes, go for it, W2R! The shoe designers need a livelihood too! And I'm sure I'm contributing to society by going on fabulous international vacations -- tourism, airlines, foreign economies-- they all need me!

I think that this is the thread that won't die because there are underlying issues that we are all concerned about. We want our lives to be of value, after all, even if only of value to ourselves.