Career not going nearly as well as investments anymore

[Klubbie]

OP, I very much relate to your situation. I am a bit older (37) with about half of what you have, but understand your frustration about the prospects. I got an MBA from (at the time) top 25 program (it has since slipped) and thought that would entitle me to endless job opportunities until I retire. A lot has changed in 10 years (and my own youthful ignorance has been blasted with a dose of reality and humility).

I too, have spent the last 10 years in banking and am facing the possibility of layoffs for reasons such as automation and beyond as my employer is struggling financially and working through a huge reorganization. As I look for other opportunities there are very few that I am qualified for that would pay me what I make today. It is a sad reality of the job market for a career path such as mine.

That said, I am looking at a few things to try and become more employable. You talked about developing skills in software development so I suspect that you are ahead of me in this regard. I have been focusing on developing my SQL, Python, and data visualization skills (Qlikview, Tableau, etc.). The goal is to try and leverage some of the data science craze into a role like that. It may mean a paycut up front, but at least there would be opportunity for growth in the short to intermediate term. Similarly, there are opportunities to get a master's degree in analytics (or some type of graduate certificate) in the mathematical skills that those positions require. Georgia Tech offers an online masters program that was only about $10k for the full two year program (as of last year). There are also some certifications (Certified Analytics Professional (CAP) and Certified Business Intelligence Professional (CBIP))I don't know if this is a path that ties closely to software development, but I think there are opportunities there that tie closely to the skills needed for software development. There may still be risk of off-shoring, but having those math based/analytics skill sets I would think can only help make one more employable.

Others mentioned nursing, which I too would emphasize. My wife is a nurse and currently going to school to get her doctorate in nursing to practice as a nurse practitioner. The state of Ohio requires you to have a doctorate by 2025 which accounts to four years of schooling and the total program over 4 years is about $50k. We take advantage of her employer's tuition reimbursement program up to $5250 per year, so ultimately we will end up paying out of pocket about 30K over the four years. Expensive, but not completely unmanageable.

She got into nursing as an RN with her associates degree. She later was required to get a BSN. But based on the timing she was able to get her BSN without paying anything out of pocket as her employer picked it up. With 800K in investments and a long time horizon this could be an option. I'd make sure to know what the requirements are to become an RN in your state and what types of programs/tuition reimbursement programs are available if it is something that interests you. Other healthcare opportunities could include becoming some type of technician. I think those positions are more at risk to be automated, but I did some research a year or two ago and the cost to get into one of those jobs is relatively manageable and could lead to a decent pay (50k) working 3 to 4 days a week (at least that's what it appeared at the time).

The other thing I'd throw out is some type of social work/mental health/coaching career path. There are many options here of varying degrees of education. But the key thing these types of jobs have is that they are based on human interaction and relationships - something that can't be automated. These types of jobs aren't for everyone and have varying ranges of income, but may be worth looking into because of their reliance on the human relationship factor. It is a path I am just now starting to explore as an alternative to the path I have been on.

Good luck.

 

[armor99]

DH has been at the same employer for 33 years, which is quite a feat these days. He's been in software R&D most of that time. Over the last 10 years, his employer has steadily been farming out a lot of the software development to companies in India and importing workers from there. In fact, the largest non-native population of workers in his building are from India, here on work Visas. It's quite a different company from when he started, that's for sure. It's all about cutting costs, whether as you've experienced with AI or importing/outsourcing cheaper human labor.

No specific advice, other than I wouldn't work for no pay, despite your impressive nest egg.

I can strongly agree with you about the India thing. In the world of commercial aerospace fully one third of engineers in companies I have worked for in the past were from Bangalore. One of the many reasons I got back into govt aerospace work.
In all of those companies... Boeing, Lockheed, General Dynamics, etc, only US citizens are even allowed on the premises. That stops foreign labor in its tracks. If you are in any sort of tech field, I would look there.
Sadly the H1B visa thing will continue to happen. While it is true they must be paid the “prevailing wage”, all engineers in my industry understand there can be a 50k plus swing in any salary range. Usually the foreign workers get paid in the lowest 10% of that range. The law NEEDS to be changed to say a H1B worker must be paid the maximum wage in their range.
The companies CLAIM, they are going to foreign labor because they cannot find US labor to do the jobs. If that is really true (which it clearly is not) they would be happy to pay H1B visa holders top salary, otherwise the work will not get done...

 

[TheHobbit]

Continue. This software engineering field is just as much about grit as it is about knowing the latest languages and coding techniques. First five years is the hardest for a lot of people.

 

[Golden sunsets]

I don't think that you are correct that there is no longer a need for entry level software developers. I'm thinking your problem is your location in a Midwest rust belt state. DS is a couple of years older than you, is a VP of product at a successful tech start up and is always looking for software talent. It is a employees market in the Northeast where he operates.

The talent though is expected to have a minimum of a BS in computer science and preferably an MS. Starting salaries are in the $130K range.

 

[JoeWras]

There's a lot of misinformation and obfuscation on the state of software engineering employment. Management cries "shortage" so they can import H1Bs. Coding mills cry "shortage" so they can get more students and tell tales of multiple offers received before graduation. Both send out press releases and MBA studies to support their cases. The coding mills blitz the airwaves with advertising.

The truth is bound to not exactly match the press releases and radio commercials. Nor is it likely to match the social media rumors you heard about making $250k with no experience. (Does every actor make what Brad Pitt makes?) Meanwhile, contracts are let out to offshore firms where the work is done anyway, and it really doesn't matter what the state of labor is here.

I could go on quite a bit about this, but I won't. I will say it is surprising as an entry person you can't find something right away. Entry level shouldn't be a problem, no matter what region of the country you reside in, and there usually are options for remote work if you can't go local.

Now if you are over 45 or so, then things get sticky.

 

[Aiming_4_55]

...
On the negative side: I left my previous career (banking) as that industry is quickly dying and laying people off due to automation / AI, and have now spent 3 years trying to make a new career work in software development, which was supposed to be one of few remaining industries holding out against being automated. But this past year the company I was working for let go the majority of the team, saying that they now only need senior developers with a minimum of 5+ years experience. They no longer want to invest on training people up who have 0-4 years experience. The work that used to be commonplace for junior / intermediate level developers has now been largely automated in 2019, or they are only willing to give it to unpaid interns .

Now that you have 3 years of experience, do you consider yourself a senior programmer? While I agree that an employer should invest in their employees, the employee should too... most good programmers I know eat and sleep coding, invest lunch and personal time in improving, also during slow times. If you enjoy it, stick with it as some senior engineers in my HCOL area are earning about $200k (base, bonus, and stock) and we still have turnover. A recent intern with Master's degree turned down a job offer $110k base plus 10% annual bonus and $15k stock. I would of loved that $$ at age 26 with limited experience.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

I can strongly agree with you about the India thing. In the world of commercial aerospace fully one third of engineers in companies I have worked for in the past were from Bangalore. One of the many reasons I got back into govt aerospace work.
In all of those companies... Boeing, Lockheed, General Dynamics, etc, only US citizens are even allowed on the premises. That stops foreign labor in its tracks. If you are in any sort of tech field, I would look there.
Sadly the H1B visa thing will continue to happen. While it is true they must be paid the “prevailing wage”, all engineers in my industry understand there can be a 50k plus swing in any salary range. Usually the foreign workers get paid in the lowest 10% of that range. The law NEEDS to be changed to say a H1B worker must be paid the maximum wage in their range.
The companies CLAIM, they are going to foreign labor because they cannot find US labor to do the jobs. If that is really true (which it clearly is not) they would be happy to pay H1B visa holders top salary, otherwise the work will not get done...

To expand a little on the part I bolded, I'd like to stress that the H-1B and employment-based green card so-called "prevailing wage" is below market wages. This has been confirmed by two congressionally-commissioned reports, and a number of academic studies, in both statistical and qualitative analyses.

An employer survey conducted by the GAO (GAO, 2003) found that some employers readily admitted to paying H-1B foreign workers less than comparable Americans, but noted that they were nevertheless paying the legally required wage (i.e., the "prevailing wage"), thereby illustrating that the prevailing wage is indeed below the market wage.

The GAO found that, “some employers said that they hired H-1B workers in part because these workers would often accept lower salaries than similarly qualified U.S. workers; however, these employers said they never paid H-1B workers less than the required wage.”[1]

This jibes with a previous employer survey[2], commissioned by Congress, that found, "…H-1B workers in jobs requiring lower levels of IT skill received lower wages, less senior job titles, smaller signing bonuses, and smaller pay and compensation increases than would be typical for the work they actually did."

So two employer surveys, one by the government and the other commissioned by the government, had employers actually admitting to underpaying their H-1B foreign workers. And the GAO shows that the employers admit that the prevailing wage, the legal wage floor for H-1Bs, is a joke. The data in the paper shows the underpayment statistically as well.

Sadly, the closer you get to the age of 35, the harder it will be in I.T. if you want to remain in hands-on software development. The vast majority of H-1B workers are under the age of 35[3] - and, because of the "prevailing wage", young H-1B workers are cheaper than young domestic workers.

[1] H-1B Foreign Workers: Better Tracking Needed to Help Determine H-1B Program’s Effects on U.S. Workforce
GAO-03-883, US General Accounting Office, Sept. 2003

[2] Building a Workforce for the Information Economy.
National Research Council. 2001.

[3] U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, April 9, 2018, Characteristics of H-1B Specialty Occupation Workers, Fiscal Year 2017 Annual Report to Congress

 

[JoeWras]

What Vincenzo said. Spot on.

 

[ponyboy]

I'll add that both FIRECalc and ******** (huh odd that that other calculator is obscured), both report 95%-100% success rates for my level of expenses and AA.

I'm fine working more years, but there's no way I'm going to do any more unpaid work.

$800k at 32...and you think you can retire? I would love to know how.

You would almost have to live out of a van and not carry health insurance. Thats not a lot of money to carry you till death. And, you cannot assume or expect returns that we've been seeing the last couple years. Yeah, 2019 was nuts. 30% returns are not the norm, just sayin.

Keep working for another 10 years and reassess.

 

[RioIndy]

$800k at 32...and you think you can retire? I would love to know how.

You would almost have to live out of a van and not carry health insurance. Thats not a lot of money to carry you till death. And, you cannot assume or expect returns that we've been seeing the last couple years. Yeah, 2019 was nuts. 30% returns are not the norm, just sayin.

Keep working for another 10 years and reassess.

I want to continue to increase it a bit more. But it theoretically is feasible, and I'm not basing it on 2019 returns. Again FIREcalc and the other one give me 95%-100% success rates with my expenses levels, which are rock-steady at under 30K / year. And I'm happy with my lifestyle. (though a major life event is of course always possible). I'm in Canada where health care is covered by taxes.

But there are still valid arguments for continuing at least a bit longer.

 

[pjigar]

Are you married and have kids? If not, that's your biggest risk apart from all the others mentioned already.

I know you think you can do it because I used to think I could. A good friend and I were in the similar boat as you at 34 but we both were planning to move to a country with very very low cost of living. I didn't pull the plug but instead kept grinding. My friend pulled the plug and lived a good life. He finally ran out of money and came back to USA to work a decade later (with family). Now my friend already had contingency plan to back and work because he holds a doctorate degree in drug industry. What more can say?

 

[MRG]

I retired from software after 29 years. It was a great career.

Eight hundred at 32 is awesome, however it's not linear growth, or mine wasn't. I started in IT in 84 we didn't have 401k, profit sharing was awesome. In 1999 my peers were talking about retirement, we were millionaires! Then 2000 came and took half away. No fears I'm young the market will recover. It did and by 07 I was almost a millionaire again. Remember 08? I do.

 

[RioIndy]

I retired from software after 29 years. It was a great career.

Eight hundred at 32 is awesome, however it's not linear growth, or mine wasn't. I started in IT in 84 we didn't have 401k, profit sharing was awesome. In 1999 my peers were talking about retirement, we were millionaires! Then 2000 came and took half away. No fears I'm young the market will recover. It did and by 07 I was almost a millionaire again. Remember 08? I do.

Yup, definitely need to remind ourselves of the big drops we've seen in 2000 and 2008 and account for that likely happening again a few more times during our lifetimes.

My portfolio has thus far seen a couple -10% and -30% drops, but it hasn't seen a -50% drop yet. I figure I can always engage austerity-mode (lowering my expenses to ~22K-24K), and/or get a part time job even as like a barista during those times.

I'm going to keep plugging away for now, hoping a new job works out, but I am not going to work for free anymore.

 

[gwraigty]

$800k at 32...and you think you can retire? I would love to know how.

I didn't address this in my earlier reply, but I do generally wonder why anyone who has to be self-supporting thinks they can spend so little of their life working for pay when they're potentially looking at 50 or so years of time left.

Again FIREcalc and the other one give me 95%-100% success rates with my expenses levels, which are rock-steady at under 30K / year. And I'm happy with my lifestyle.

At $800K, which is awesome BTW at 32 , investing for cash flow at 4%, would generate $32K. (Disregard if you prefer to invest for total return.) Yet, I still wouldn't recommend not having another source of income. Why? Your expenses will not remain rock-steady over the coming decades of your life. They. Will. Not. Even if you don't want to spend more money, you will. Housing costs, including utilities, property taxes, rent, whatever, will increase, whether you want them to or not. Clothes will eventually wear out and you'll need to replace them. Etc. That doesn't even take into account extraordinary expenses.

We've been in our house for over 23 years. We're paying more in property taxes and utilities over the years. Costs for water/sewer/refuse increase annually by vote of our city council. Levies periodically pass, which increases our property taxes. Costs for most food items gradually go up, some more obviously, others just a little bit at a time, until you realize that you're paying twice or more what you used to for beef, for example.

Hopefully, you get the point.

 

[ChiliPepr]

I'll add that both FIRECalc and ******** (huh odd that that other calculator is obscured), both report 95%-100% success rates for my level of expenses and AA.

I'm fine working more years, but there's no way I'm going to do any more unpaid work.

When you enter you info into firecalc, how many years do you enter? If you are entering a large number, like 60, try entering 30 years and what is yopur success rate?

 

[pjigar]

When you enter you info into firecalc, how many years do you enter? If you are entering a large number, like 60, try entering 30 years and what is yopur success rate?

+1. I learned this trick little late. I run two 30 year simulations: first one using the current balance and second one using the lowest balance of the first one.

 

[Bamaman]

We live outside Huntsville, Al, a mid size city of about 450,000. The nickname for this city is the Rocket City, and they bill themselves as one of America's smartest cities. I agree. And unemployment is an extremely low 2.1%.

NASA and Redstone Arsenal employment will be 50,000 people in a 3-4 years, and the FBI is bringing in an incredible number of workers in their bomb labs. It seems like everyone here you run into is a PhD or engineer of some kind.

This city has a huge computer programmer population, often working for large aerospace companies. Other huge projects outside of NASA are missile designs, night vision for pilots, future helicopter designs and testing and combat drones. And the United Launch Alliance builds the biggest solid rockets with boosters to launch satellites.

The new 4,000 employee Mazda-Toyota factory is being built, and I have no idea where they're going to come up with production personnel. With a couple of hundred manufacturing robots, robot programmers and mechanics are badly needed. The local community college has a large robot training program.

There seems no end to the local employment prospects here, especially in computer software. The whole region is full of factories of all sizes feeding into the space industry and producing machine work of the highest order. The "Iron Dome" missile defense system components and other secret operations are also manufactured close by.

We moved here 2 months ago, and I've never seen anything like this medium size city.

 

[Amethyst]

You haven't mentioned items that are practically inconceivable to a 32-year-old, such as having to pay thousands for home upkeep that we used to be able to do ourselves. Right up until we can't. This applies even to people who have always "taken care of themselves."

We've been in our house for over 23 years. We're paying more in property taxes and utilities over the years. Costs for water/sewer/refuse increase annually by vote of our city council. Levies periodically pass, which increases our property taxes. Costs for most food items gradually go up, some more obviously, others just a little bit at a time, until you realize that you're paying twice or more what you used to for beef, for example.

Hopefully, you get the point.

 

[Markola]

I want to continue to increase it a bit more. But it theoretically is feasible, and I'm not basing it on 2019 returns. Again FIREcalc and the other one give me 95%-100% success rates with my expenses levels, which are rock-steady at under 30K / year. And I'm happy with my lifestyle. (though a major life event is of course always possible). I'm in Canada where health care is covered by taxes.



But there are still valid arguments for continuing at least a bit longer.

I just finished a book by Kristy Shen and Bryce Leung, also Canadians, who are about your age and who travel the world full time on $1M net worth. Check out “Quit Like A Millionaire.” Impressive. They explain every detail of their style and how they fund it. Good luck!

 

[RioIndy]

...

At $800K, which is awesome BTW at 32 , ....

Your expenses will not remain rock-steady over the coming decades of your life. They. Will. Not. Even if you don't want to spend more money, you will. Housing costs, including utilities, property taxes, rent, whatever, will increase, whether you want them to or not. Clothes will eventually wear out and you'll need to replace them. Etc. That doesn't even take into account extraordinary expenses...

Thanks, but yes regular inflation is factored into those expenses over time. And my expenses factor in everything from clothes, shoes, vacations, gifts, electronics / gadgets, going out to bars.

Biggest possible change would be kids, which is very doubtful to happen (more likely to just get another cat or dog). And things like a replacement vehicle in a few years.

But I continue to agree that I still will likely need to work at "something" for a bit longer.

 

[RioIndy]

When you enter you info into firecalc, how many years do you enter? If you are entering a large number, like 60, try entering 30 years and what is yopur success rate?

Putting in 30 years instead of 60 returns a result of 95.0% (119 possible 30 year periods with 6 failed cycles).

 

[EvrClrx311]

Without knowing much more of your situation (family, kids, spouse...) if I were in your shoes and had $800K invested in index funds at 32... I would be happy to move into something entirely different, and not necessarily lucrative, but fulfilling and enough to pay the bills for the next decade or two as the nest egg grows...

And I say this as someone who is a 15+ year software developer, who hasn't yet been overtaken by AI...

I'd look into being a national park ranger and move to a really low cost of living area (maybe Alaska?) or maybe a High School Physics teacher (always loved that subject most, and I really enjoy teaching) or possibly I'd look into starting a business... in an area I'm really comfortable in, yet small and scale-able (organic farming?). Maybe put your software development skills to work, developing a platform that might benefit some industry... where your time and energy is invested in a business, and not so much your money.

When you consider looking back at your life, from the future, and the satisfaction in that reflection, about what you accomplished. The things you did that meant something will matter way more to you... banking, software... is a means to an end. It doesn't provided fulfillment. Well, I can't say that absolutely... I know some people who genuinely LOVE coding, and work on projects that impact the world around them... but look at doing something that brings you joy... go do that. You already have your retirement on track to cover most of the rest of your life... as long as you don't dip into it within the next several years. Focus on quality, in what you choose to do next... you're in a unique position that most don't find themselves in at your age. Good luck

 

[badatmath]

Disagree with the person who recommended becoming a project manager as my employer got rid of all of ours in that role. . . Teams are "agile" these days supposedly, fwiw.

I am old and would not go into IT now if I was not already there. I was going to recommend you keep working some years to accumulate Social Security credits - but I see you are in Canada. Do they have anything like the 35 years of work SS uses to figure your benefits? (Sorry, I know nothing about this - I assume you get something there that is similar perhaps better).

On firecalc, do you realize it does not account for taxes? So if you want to net 30K, you need to use 40k (or whatever) as your spending. Not having to worry about health care is a huge huge benefit.

 

[marinauser]

While I am quite sure that certain levels of coding are being exported. Computer Science/Software Engineering majors are still some of the most in demand STEM majors in the country and graduates from good schools are getting top dollar offers. So obviously there is still real career potential for those with the right background. But there is a big difference between someone that has one of those degrees from a good school and someone that took a six month training course and does basic coding. Nothing is stopping the OP from getting that real degree and still having a great career or keep looking for that start-up that needs someone with a banking background that can also understand their software company. 32 and minimal assets/low budget lifestyle would be far too thin for me and a no go on ER.

 

[Golden sunsets]

+1. There are schools though that accommodate graduates with degrees in other majors, who want to "go back" to obtain their BS or MS in Computer Scuence. The programs take 12-18 months and are full time course loads of 4 to 5 courses over either 12 mos. (for a BS) or 18 mos(for an MS) . They are very rigorous but avoid the student having to take other courses that are not related. There are specific requirements for the major, just as there are for any other major. So with roughly 12 courses(36 credit hours) you obtain your full MS from a well regarded institution. You can be enrolled in the Masters program from the start of this focused education process.

The idea that IT is over for junior or entry level programmers is absurd. It remains one of the best areas to study vis a vis career prospects.

Frankly I think the OP was searching for a short cut, which obviously limits his marketability in the computer science field.