Body by Science vs Younger Next Year

[TromboneAl]

I don't want to be a typical Internet Chicken Little, but that back extension machine looks dangerous to me. I've read somewhere (Backsmart Fitness Plan?), that no back exercises should be performed with added weight. I'll see if I can find that.

Here's a quote from:

Top 5 Worst Weight Machines - Ask Personal Trainers workout videos

Using the lower back extension machine is the equivalent of lifting a heavy object with your lower back only and not bending your legs.
When you lift a heavy object at home such as a TV the correct way to lift would help functionally strengthen your lower back such as performing a dead lift with proper form.


The motion provided by the lower back extension machine is totally unnatural and could lead to injury.

​

In the same vein, I've give up crunches that I've done for three years:


Stop Doing Sit-Ups: Why Crunches Don't Work - Newsweek

"Like the pushup, the best exercises for back health and a firmer stomach are ones that work your abs while holding your spine straight, like planks or leg drops "

 

[haha]

Top 5 Worst Weight Machines - Ask Personal Trainers workout videos

Using the lower back extension machine is the equivalent of lifting a heavy object with your lower back only and not bending your legs.
When you lift a heavy object at home such as a TV the correct way to lift would help functionally strengthen your lower back such as performing a dead lift with proper form.


The motion provided by the lower back extension machine is totally unnatural and could lead to injury.
​

While deadlifts with a well trained and strong spotter might (or might not) be better, if you do a correct back extension on a machine like W2 shows, the back is completely static. In effect, one's hips are the pivot point, and the power to push back is coming from glutes and other hip extensors with the back held rigidly in place. So postural muscles along the spine are contracting.

Hard to imagine much injury potential in that, espcially if your core is activated.

Ha

 

[W2R]

I had a trainer show me how to use the back extension machine, and I am very careful about form on it now. You are pushing backwards, not pulling/lifting backwards, so could that make a difference?

Once a long time ago a female stranger started talking to me while I was working out on it, and said she had lost her bluetooth earpiece there and had I seen it? Like an idiot I twisted around to look under the machine while I was in the middle of a rep , and naturally that messed up my back. So, since then I am always pretty careful to focus on form. It only makes sense, when lifting that much weight with the back, which is so prone to injury in humans. As the free weight lifters used to say years ago, "Better light and right, than strong and wrong".

The results that I get from that machine are great, though. I feel so much stronger and more capable with a strong lower back, and I don't tire as easily. I don't seem to throw out my back on it at all if I stretch before and after, focus on what I am doing, and pay attention to what my body is telling me.

Bear in mind that I am one of those lucky few who seldom if ever throws out her back, and never did even once before my mid 30's.

 

[TromboneAl]

Yes, I'm probably overly cautious at this point.

BTW, the Backsmart Fitness Plan recommends a daily dozen stretching and strengthening exercises, with, at the advanced level, "6-8 sets for 10 repetitions, holding the stretch for 10 seconds to a minute." IOW, a max of 8 * 10 * 1 * 12 = 960 minutes of exercise or 16 hours per day."

 

[W2R]

Yes, I'm probably overly cautious at this point.

That's wise, you know, considering that you are presently fighting back from considerable injury in that bike accident.

16 hours a day? Obviously that program is just not meant for me! I do 2 sets of 10 reps on each of 19 machines, which takes about 40 minutes and that is all I am good for right now. Instead of increasing the sets or reps, I just wait until I feel like I can easily increase the weight and do that instead. Why? Not on any authority, really, but simply because this feels right to me and is giving me the kind of results that I want.

 

[haha]

That's wise, you know, considering that you are presently fighting back from considerable injury in that bike accident.

16 hours a day? Obviously that program is just not meant for me! I do 2 sets of 10 reps on each of 19 machines, which takes about 40 minutes and that is all I am good for right now. Instead of increasing the sets or reps, I just wait until I feel like I can easily increase the weight and do that instead. Why? Not on any authority, really, but simply because this feels right to me and is giving me the kind of results that I want.

You must be setting a land speed record getting around that gym. If you spend 90 secs getting from one machine to the next, cleaning off the cooties before and after, and setting your weight, and 30 secs between sets on each machine, you appear to have roughly 3.5 minutes left to actually raise and lower the weights, 380 times.

Way to go!

Ha

 

[W2R]

Thanks! I have to admit that F. says it takes me 45 minutes. But I think it's 40 minutes. This is when I don't have to wait for any machine, and usually I don't have to wait. Getting from one machine to another and adjusting the machine probably doesn't take me more than 20 seconds.*

Anyway, that leaves me about 100 seconds to do set one, rest, and set two, all three of which take about the same time. So, 33 seconds for 10 reps would be about 3 seconds per rep. Doesn't sound like much except when you are slowly counting out "one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi, three-Mississippi" and all of that is just for one rep. My reps are actually slower than what I see most other people doing, because I think I get more out of lifting with slower reps.

I don't like to rest between machines, or talk, because I like to work up a sweat and keep my muscles from getting cold if I can. I would probably catch cold standing around drenched in the air conditioning otherwise. If the next machine is busy, then I usually walk around nearby rather than just stand there, to keep my blood moving.

When I finish my workout, stick a fork in me because I am DONE. I am tired but feel great. I used to spend some time on the Concept 2 or elliptical, but now choose to do my cardio at home because F. always finishes at the gym before me and is sitting there waiting.

Just got back from the gym, and was thinking about this thread. It is hard to drag oneself to the gym but much easier now that F. is my gym buddy. And once we get there, I have a blast. Recess for grownups. I did my full workout today and feel strong and happy.

*I gave up cleaning off the cooties because nobody seems to do that any more after Katrina; before Katrina we were all more fastidious, I suppose. Besides, they don't supply the small towels for that any more and a big bath towel seems kind of like overkill.

 

[donheff]

Ha, next time you get on that sled load it up. You are supposed to reach failure in a dozen reps, not forty.

 

[haha]

Ha, next time you get on that sled load it up. You are supposed to reach failure in a dozen reps, not forty.

Thanks for the suggestion. I was flying blind, as I don't yet have the book from the library, and 5 years and one traumatic hip injury have elapsed since my last hip sled use. Also, they all seem to have different geometry, so it was hard for me to guess where to start, and I didn't want to start too heavy because I am unused to the failure endpoint. While these sleds all seem to have fail-safe hard stops on them, some some might be a bit hard to crawl out of (and embarrassing!) if you lose them.

My legs always have been relatively much stronger than my upper body. At my old gym, one sled always had 4 100# plates on it. (These were really fun to take on and off if they were not already in place) You just added however many 45s and 25s you wanted to get the right weight

Ha

 

[haha]

This thread has been inactive for a while, but I like it and want to discuss this high intensity idea bit more.

I found a gym where I do can do deadlifts on a michine, as well as squats. This gym also has Keiser stations, which use an air piston to give resistence rather than plates or a weight stack, so no matter how hard you hit it there is no momentum effect.

So I made a workout to start- 4 sets of 25 reps moderate weight. I had my 3rd wo there on last Wednesday afternoon. I ate just a snack and went out to a concert that evening. When I got home I was hungry so I ate some spinach and egg and went to bed. About 3 hours later I woke up and puked. I took me an hour to change my sheets and clean up the floor (and my Kindle!). So yesterday I worked out again, using drop sets that started out pretty heavy, and just kept stepping down in weight, up in reps until the weight was too light to be doing much. I felt moderately shot afterward, but not half dead.

Afterward, I ate with a friend, and ate really lightly. But I think a hard workout pretty much stops my gut in its tracks, as I woke up again during the night afraid that I would barf. I didn't, but this morning it took me about 3 hours to manage to eat some breakfast.

I feel tired after my workouts, but not destroyed, so I don't quite get the gut shutdown.

I think I just need to keep on, but try to figure out a way to eat alongside these intense workouts. I seem to have lost about 3 pounds, and weight loss is not one of my goals

Do your intense workouts leave you nauseated, or unable to eat? Ha

 

[W2R]

(As you know, I don't do the intense workouts so I can't really say much about that).

Working out can decrease one's appetite, so it seems logical that an intense workout could have an effect like that. I am surprised that it occurs so long after you worked out.

But sleeping with your Kindle? I *love* my Kindle, but I would be afraid of breaking it if I slept with it.

 

[donheff]

I don't have any problem with nausea but I still get dizzy.

Edit: Your problem drove me to Google where I failed to learn anything about what happened to you (all the references were to immediate nausea, not delayed) but may have found something that explains what happens to me (bolded):

2 down vote
I had a particularly effective HIT weight training workout today, and after two sets I was so gassed and queasy that I had to lay down on the bench for a few minutes to let everything settle down. I hadn't just eaten or drank, and while my heart was racing I don't think it was that high and my breathing was still under control (although certainly I was short of breath). I recalled a section addressing this from the Body By Science Question and Answer Book (p. 237-240), and from that I'd like to add one more potential cause to @Ivo's list.

The nausea that one feels is a result of burning so much glycogen out of the muscles that the body attempts to continue muscular contraction by manufacturing more glucose out of the lactic acid that has been building up within the muscle.
​

<Long chemical process explanation>

The upshot of this complicated biochemical process is that when a trainee runs out of glycogen in his working muscles and his body liberates lactate into his bloodstream, his pH levels drop off markedly, producing a strong lactic acidosis and feelings of nausea.
​

This effect causes a drop in blood pressure (often perceived as light-headedness), and the inadequate blood flow to the abdomen produces the feeling of nausea.
A couple ways to combat this feeling:

• Increase rest time between sets to allow the body to keep up with the demands that are being placed on it
• Consume a bit of sugar immediately upon feeling the symptoms (or beforehand if you are certain that this will be a problem).

 

[haha]

I don't have any problem with nausea but I still get dizzy.

• Increase rest time between sets to allow the body to keep up with the demands that are being placed on it
• Consume a bit of sugar immediately upon feeling the symptoms (or beforehand if you are certain that this will be a problem).

I have noticed that if I eat a prune shortly after the workout, it has a good overall effect on my gut. Dizziness is not part of my symptoms, just nausea.

@W2- the Kindle was on my night table.

Ha

 

[eytonxav]

Ha, If your doing squats and deads at 4X25 that sounds awfully intense to me. Lots of guys will puke on leg day not doing nearly that many sets/reps. I usually take a shaker bottle of water with G2 powder mixed in, and that helps a lot in getting through vigorous exercises, but my leg days are usually Saturday morning, and by 2:00 PM I feel wiped out and in need of a nap.

 

[TromboneAl]

Ha, I definitely get shaky, but not nauseous. It sounds like you threw up about 12 hours after your workout -- I would guess that it was totally unrelated.

-----------------

Today I had my third high-intensity workout on the bowflex, and I felt really good afterward. I even enjoyed the exercises themselves. I did the big five, and one or two others, and then did my back strengthening exercises and stretched. I've noticed before that I feel good after intense exercise, and that was especially true today. Also, with all the stretching in the last month, I feel like my joints are more "lubricated."

------------------

Thinking more about BBS, here are the things that the book says:

1. You shouldn't (or at least need not) do strength training more than about once per week.

2. You should lift to failure.

3. You should lift very slowly.

I'm quite convinced about 1, and pretty convinced about 2 and 3.

Now that I'm recovered, I have to decide on BBS vs. YNY, and here's my current compromise:

Lift on Fridays
Take Saturdays and Sundays off
Walk on Mondays
Ride on Tuesdays
Walk, ride, or maybe run on Wednesdays and Thursdays

If I lean further towards BBS, I'll take three days off after lifting.

 

[donheff]

Now that I'm recovered, I have to decide on BBS vs. YNY, and here's my current compromise:

Lift on Fridays
Take Saturdays and Sundays off
Walk on Mondays
Ride on Tuesdays
Walk, ride, or maybe run on Wednesdays and Thursdays

If I lean further towards BBS, I'll take three days off after lifting.

Hmmm, maybe I should switch to Fridays since I frequently take off on weekends. I have currently been doing weights on Tuesdays (when DW goes into the gym for a couple of classes and can't ride with me). If Wednesday's weather is good I have been riding but I don't go all out - just moderate riding for 20 miles or so. I don't think that kind of slow endurance stuff stresses the muscles much but who knows...

 

[TromboneAl]

I don't think that kind of slow endurance stuff stresses the muscles much but who knows...

Yeah, that's the big question. I picture the muscle damage as a bunch of little micro-tears and chewed-up fibers. Maybe of any kind of movement of the limb would be disrupting the repair/healing process. Perhaps repair is not possible if your legs are pumping. Perhaps even stretching has the muscle repair persons saying "Geez, look at that. We just about had this fiber finished, and now the schmuck stretched it all to hell!"

That's why I'm thinking that the rest of the workout day is spent on the couch, and the next two days are pretty sedentary.

 

[donheff]

Great graphic aide

 

[haha]

Thanks for all your comments. Whatever caused it, puking is no fun so I am going to make some modifications.

I am not sold on the one day a week idea, I think I should do something for a good while most days. I might have to work up to this greater effort though.

To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them. There is 100 years of history at least of entrepreneurial fitness systems creators and authors, and nothing sells better than promises of more results with less effort. Remember Arthur Jones and Nautilus? Or isometrics of the 60s? Or Dynamic Tension of the fifties? Look around a gym today, a piece of Nautilus equipment is hard to find.

Good to remember that for an entrepreneur only one result really counts- sales. No one is going to arrest him if his system doesn't really work, any more than the personal finance gurus will get arrested if their stuff turns out to be bunk.

It is generally true that very strong people like power lifters and Olympic lifters do not lift to failure. And these people have their strength tested in competition regularly. And like I said, failure is relative. If someone were offering $100 for one more rep, might you not be able to gut it out?

Here is a short video that shows some OSU Buckeyes going hard in the gym.

YouTube - ‪ASAP at Ohio State Football Strength Training‬‏

And here is Columbus OH gym famous for training powerlifting champions
YouTube - ‪Westside Barbell Max Effort Bench Day Part 2‬‏

YouTube - ‪WESTSIDE BARBELL BOOK OF METHODS‬‏

I am not trying to convert anyone, just to mention some perhaps different viewpoints.


Ha

 

[TromboneAl]

To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them.

I think we must be talking about different things, because I see these studies as dead easy to do, and they have been done. Two examples, from the article:

Less is Not Less

In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

--------------

In 2007, DiFrancisco-Donoghue et al tested 18 older adults in two groups for several weeks. Half of them trained twice per week, the other half once. Once again, they found no difference at all.


​

 

[GregLee]

In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

Suppose they did --- who cares? I'm in that age range (69), but I'd like to live a long and healthy life. Why should I care whether I get stronger? I'm not training to be a stevedore.

 

[haha]

I think we must be talking about different things, because I see these studies as dead easy to do, and they have been done. Two examples, from the article:

Less is Not Less

In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

--------------

In 2007, DiFrancisco-Donoghue et al tested 18 older adults in two groups for several weeks. Half of them trained twice per week, the other half once. Once again, they found no difference at all.


​

I think what I refer to, in part, is that strength increases are not the only goal of fitness training. There are metabolic effects such as gluconse tolerance, muscular hypertrophy, endurance, aerobic conditioning, etc. etc. I maintain that this stuff is in fact fairly complex, and that the simplifications chosen for a given study at times may not be helpful to ones real world goals. I already know (or believe anyway) by the best possible evidence- long experience of people who depend on their muscles for contest or money, that considerable volume and workload have always been preferred.

Anyway, I may be dead wrong.

Ha

 

[W2R]

Thanks for all your comments. Whatever caused it, puking is no fun so I am going to make some modifications.

I am not sold on the one day a week idea, I think I should do something for a good while most days. I might have to work up to this greater effort though.

Lots of people work out more than one day a week and do just fine. I do. Restricting my workouts to just one day a week would seem too much like going on a chocolate cake diet, to me. YMMV

To me the "evidence" put forward for fewer workouts in the BBS book is weak. In fact these kinds of studies would be very hard to do and there is not much funding for them. There is 100 years of history at least of entrepreneurial fitness systems creators and authors, and nothing sells better than promises of more results with less effort. Remember Arthur Jones and Nautilus? Or isometrics of the 60s? Or Dynamic Tension of the fifties? Look around a gym today, a piece of Nautilus equipment is hard to find.

Probably depends on the gym. About a third of the machines I use at my gym are Nautilus machines. From what I can tell, the Nautilus machines are more expensive than other machines so I am speculating that maybe that is why most gyms (including mine) don't have many. Being a penny-pincher I decided I might as well use them, since my gym has already paid for them. I like some of them better, and some not. I agree that they probably aren't worth the extra money.*

Good to remember that for an entrepreneur only one result really counts- sales.

That is what it all comes down to. There's a lot of money to be had in the fitness business.

*(Except the Nautilus abdominal machine, which is unbelieveable and worth its weight in GOLD.)

 

[TromboneAl]

Corrections:

I had left something out of a quote (italicized part) above. It should read:

In 1999, Taaffe et al studied strength training frequency in a few dozen healthy older adults, aged 65 to 79 years...They were divided into groups training 1, 2, or 3 days per week. They all did well. They all got equally stronger.

​

Also, in listing the things BBS says, I forgot one (#4). The list should read:

1. You shouldn't (or at least need not) do strength training more than about once per week.

2. You should lift to failure.

3. You should lift very slowly.

4. Short intense exercise is better for the cardiovascular system than long slow exercise.

I'm not totally convinced of point 4, but it seems reasonable, and supported by the fact that long runs don't prepare you for long bike rides, and vice versa.

 

[TromboneAl]

Concerning lifting to failure -- Ha, do you think that is bad, or just unnecessary? I figure that if effort is important, then lifting to failure is best because it's maximum effort. And there isn't a big difference between the way I used to lift and lifting to failure -- usually just an additional rep.

I'm always interested in getting the most efficiency out of things. True, the 2x per week lifting "worked for me" for years, but if I can get almost the same benefit from 1x per week, I'm on it.

Note that for a professional weight lifter, if 2x/week or 3x/week gives them 10% better results, then it's worth it for them. If you depend on results for contest or money, that's a good trade-off. For me, not so much.

I think what I refer to, in part, is that strength increases are not the only goal of fitness training. There are metabolic effects such as glucose tolerance, muscular hypertrophy, endurance, aerobic conditioning, etc. etc. I maintain that this stuff is in fact fairly complex, and that the simplifications chosen for a given study at times may not be helpful to one's real world goals.

Very true, but I'm betting that, within the ranges that we are talking about, being stronger = being healthier. Also, being stronger is a good real-world goal in itself.