Body by Science vs Younger Next Year

[donheff]

Who knows where the truth lies. All I know is that after almost four months using the BBS HIT workout once a week my muscle tone and definition is (subjectively) better than it was when I did three sessions a week. Like Al mentions -- those sessions were just a bit less intense than what I am doing now but the additional intensity feels significant.

Now, it is probably important to note that I was not aiming for overall fitness with weights in the first place - just tone, cosmetics, and the generally accepted bone and other benefits of weights. I still think (and I could be totally wrong on this) that the riding I continue to do contributes more to general health and fitness. If nothing else, it has good psychological benefits. As to Ha's assertion that $100 would get another rep -- absolutely. I suspect that if I was doing these sessions with a HIT trainer who would push me that extra rep or two I would be popping out of my shirts. The other thing Ha, if you actually try this to see if it works over a month or two - remember, you are aiming for four or five core exercises, one set each, with 10-12 reps leading to "failure." If you do something different your are doing something different

 

[TromboneAl]

cosmetics, tone, and the generally accepted bone

This would be a good signature line.

 

[eytonxav]

I do not believe in any one size fits all approach. Everyone responds differently to exercise. Working out 1x/week may be great for some, others may need 5x/week. You need to listen to your body and make adjustments. Also, what ever you do should be a function of what your goals are (eg gain strength, increase muscle mass, train for a sport, lose weight, just stay healthy, etc). For me, weight lifting 3X/week works best and gives me sufficient time to recuperate. I try and keep each session to about 1 hr and I progressively (slowly) try to up the amount of weight I lift over time.

That said, anything out there that sounds too good to be true probably is, so I would tend to agree with what Ha is saying.

My goals for working out are as follows:
1) Health
2) Strength
3) Body Building

 

[TromboneAl]

For me, weight lifting 3X/week works best and gives me sufficient time to recuperate.

But the question is "How do you know that that is what works best for you?"

If the answer is "Well, I know because for six months I lifted once a week, and then for the next six months I lifted twice a week, and for the six months after that I lifted three times a week, and after that four times per week, and I found that I did the best job of meeting my goals when it was three times a week." Then I will agree that that is what works best for you.

If the answer is "Well, that is what my body tells me," then I don't think you really know the answer.

Even if I did the above two-year experiment, I still wouldn't know the answer, because of placebo effects, and the fact that after each six month period I will be at a different starting point.

So if I wanted to know which frequency is most efficient, I would assemble a bunch of people, assign them randomly to the different groups, and objectively measure their progress. Luckily, I don't have to do that because it's been done 9 or 10 times, and the results in almost every case show that 1x/week is almost as good as 2x or 3x.

I'm trying not to sound argumentative here. I just want to explore this idea in depth.

Also, there are lots off things that sound too good to be true, but are indeed true. Sex and libraries are two examples.

 

[eytonxav]

But the question is "How do you know that that is what works best for you?"

If the answer is "Well, I know because for six months I lifted once a week, and then for the next six months I lifted twice a week, and for the six months after that I lifted three times a week, and after that four times per week, and I found that I did the best job of meeting my goals when it was three times a week." Then I will agree that that is what works best for you.

If the answer is "Well, that is what my body tells me," then I don't think you really know the answer.

Thats a fair question, but as in life there are not always simple answers. In my opinion, the answer lies in between these two choices and some experimentation is needed on you, not on some test group of people. For one, I do not believe it will take six months to see if a particular routine is working for you. Six weeks is probably sufficient, maybe less. Regarding what your body is telling you, if you can't reasonably recuperate from anything you are doing within a few days time, its probably an indicator of over work, and to that end, I am certainly not an advocate that more is better.

 

[Nords]

Also, there are lots off things that sound too good to be true, but are indeed true. Sex and libraries are two examples.

Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...

 

[HFWR]

Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...

How about sex in libraries?

 

[eytonxav]

How about sex in libraries?

That falls under too good to be true

 

[donheff]

Well, I don't know if I find libraries quite that exciting...

How about sex in libraries?

That falls under too good to be true

Heck there is probably a forum for licentious librarians.

Edit: Thinking of the alliteration, I figured "let me Google that": http://licentiouslibrarian.blogspot.com/

 

[HFWR]

"Clean up in autobiographies..."

 

[haha]

Concerning lifting to failure -- Ha, do you think that is bad, or just unnecessary?

No, I don't think it is bad. I believe that it is unnecessary, by the results of 1000s of trainers who do not do that. It may be necessary in the once per week strategy. Anyway, if a trainer can stand working to failure each time he/she goes to the gym, and keep going, then more power to that person!

I really cannot even argue intelligently about how many times you have to workout per week to be as strong as if you worked out more times per week. For all I know you and completely correct, although as I have pointed out many people whose big time careers depend on their own or others' strength and endurance do not use this method.

But this issue does not address my main goals, which are metabolic. If I could find credible research that addressed metabolic endpoints and seemed to suggest fewer workouts, I would pay attention.

An interesting anecdote about muscle and strength and hypertrophy. Way back in the 60s when I moved to Venice Beach I noticed these extremely strong looking young guys walking around wearing blue chambray shirts, who did not seem to be part of the Gold's/ Muscle Beach crowd. I asked one of my long time Venice buddies who these guys were- "Just out of the joint", he said. "They've been working out every day, and they get very strong."

These guys looked like NFL running backs. Arnold and Louie and Franco and those other Muscle Beach guys looked like some kind of artificial life forms.

Ha

 

[yakers]

So the story is that someone asked Arnold 'do you do a few reps with a lot of weight or a lot of reps with less weight?' To which he responded (que in Germanic accent)'Ya doo a lots of reps with lots of weight!'

 

[Nords]

How about sex in libraries?

Great, now I'll never look at any of our librarians the same way ever again...

 

[TromboneAl]

Don, have you noticed any difference in bike riding, or things like walking up hill? I felt surprisingly good on my first hard bike ride since the crash.

 

[donheff]

I haven't noticed a difference but then again maybe you are pushing it harder than me

 

[TromboneAl]

Here's a study that suggests that light exercise following high-intensity exercise results in better recovery than simply resting:

Which Recovery Strategy Works Best for Cyclists? | Active.com

It doesn't contradict the experiments that suggest that once-per-week lifting is almost as good as 2-3x per week lifting.

 

[W2R]

For two weeks I lifted only twice per week instead of three times (due to a routine doctor's appointment and a delivery on one day, and the fourth of July holiday the next week).

I am still recovering from that. I was SO SORE until I resumed three times a week, and it took until yesterday before I felt reasonably capable again. If I did that every week, I'd be a mess and not making much progress at all. YMMV and probably does.

I'm a great proponent of the "listen to your own body" regimen.

Edited to add: While at the gym, between posting this and editing it, a thought occurred to me. For me (only, not you), working out one day a week would go nicely with the

Unlimited All-Chocolate Diet ,

and would probably yield the same results. I'm not saying that is the case for others.

Also, another thought-while-at-the-gym: While I don't lift "to failure" (the maximum that I can lift), and so I am doing a different regimen than some of you, still the weights I lifted today would have been lifting to failure for me not so long ago. So does that count? Just kiddin'

I probably do too much thinking at the gym! That's one reason I love lifting. Lots of focus on the weights and tuning out my environment, and thinking.

P.S. - - the ice/cooling cooldown technique in that article sounds like torture to me! I'm glad it wasn't the best method.

 

[eytonxav]

For two weeks I lifted only twice per week instead of three times (due to a routine doctor's appointment and a delivery on one day, and the fourth of July holiday the next week).

I am still recovering from that. I was SO SORE until I resumed three times a week, and it took until yesterday before I felt reasonably capable again. If I did that every week, I'd be a mess and not making much progress at all. YMMV and probably does.

I have found that consistency with respect to your workout schedule is very important and if I miss a session it does affect my strength levels and recovery. That said, I do think its reasonable to take a week off or at least deload every two to three months.

 

[W2R]

I have found that consistency with respect to your workout schedule is very important and if I miss a session it does affect my strength levels and recovery. That said, I do think its reasonable to take a week off or at least deload every two to three months.

Missing those workouts really affected me, that's for sure! I seem to be back to normal by now, thank goodness, and was able to increase a few weights last time. It was a little unsettling to feel so incompetent and sore after missing two days like that.

We have been working out pretty regularly since January 4th and haven't felt the need to take time off intentionally, but I'm sure if we do then we will.

 

[TromboneAl]

So, Don, what are your thoughts after nine months?

 

[donheff]

Well, I am convinced that the BBS brief, once a week high intensity weight training works for muscle tone/mass. I am doing quite a bit better than I did with my previous, wussier thrice weekly sessions. If I really, really pushed it to the max I think the BBS workout would be better still - it is almost impossible to deliver the mental discipline to totally max out. That would work better with a partner.

Notwithstanding the value of the BBS HIT approach, I still don't buy BBS's assertion that one HIT session is all you need for overall fitness. I still do my regular 20-30 mile bike rides and do a couple of weekly spinning sessions in cold weather. I push those spinning sessions with all out sprints. I think the aerobics of biking, running, swimming, or just plain walking has to provide different benefits than the short weight session. And, if I am deluded, no harm done.

What I don't do is YNY's "exercise hard 6 days a week for the rest of your life."

 

[eytonxav]

I think the aerobics of biking, running, swimming, or just plain walking has to provide different benefits than the short weight session. And, if I am deluded, no harm done.

What I don't do is YNY's "exercise hard 6 days a week for the rest of your life."

I have never tried any HIT, but have thought about it. Not sure if I could do it 3X/week which has been my workout schedule for past several years. On the aerobics, I don't do a lot as it can be counterproductive if you are trying to build muscle/strength. See Getting Maximum Results Part I - Alternatives to Aerobics

 

[donheff]

I have never tried any HIT, but have thought about it. Not sure if I could do it 3X/week which has been my workout schedule for past several years. On the aerobics, I don't do a lot as it can be counterproductive if you are trying to build muscle/strength. See Getting Maximum Results Part I - Alternatives to Aerobics

Interesting link. I don't do the biking to change body aesthetics as the article discusses -- but the weekly HIT sessions are effective for that. I do a HIT session once a week, not 3x like you mention. Twice would be the max I would even consider for HIT. Even 2X is probably counterproductive according to BBS (at least if really maxed). On the aerobic side I ride first because I enjoy it and second because I assume it is heart healthy per years of National Heart Association PR. I don't tend to do intensive "cardio" stuff when I ride. DW and I do 25/30 mile rides with a stop for breakfast or lunch mid way. We ride quickly but not fast. I do mix sprints in when I spin - that may hit on some of the negatives your article points toward although I doubt I am doing anything like enough to worry about .

 

[TromboneAl]

Yes, that's how I still view it.

I don't think I could push it any harder in my weekly bowflex sessions. It's not my attitude, I think the bowflex is a little different, and you either give it your all or you don't. It felt different with weights or chinups for example. The bowflex gets harder the further you move, so if you barely finish one lift, you're going to fail partway through the next.

I've somewhat abandoned the slow burn type of "lifting." The reason is this: I want to do better than last week. So, if I did 8 reps last week, I know that the slower I go, the fewer reps I'll be capable of. I don't go real fast, but I move about the way that normal lifters move.

Just like you, I've switched from 6 days/week to 4 or 5, and some of those are just long walks or hikes. I think these rest days help a lot, and I've had fewer of those super tired days. I always take it real easy on the two days after the bowflexing.

Sometimes I wonder whether I'm a less-strong biker because of it.

An aside on the bowflex: It's really perfect for this because you can lift to failure without any worries of injuries. However, I've found that with some lifts, when you add more rods, you just can't move it as far. For example, for a compound row, with less weight I could 20 reps, and pull my hands almost to my shoulders. With double the weight, I can only do 6 reps, but even on the first, I can only move my hands halfway to my shoulders. I hope that there is still a lot of benefit even without the full range of motion.

 

[samclem]

Don, Al,

I know this thread is way, way old, but your discussion of the BBS techniques have stuck in my head for years. As 2016 is now upon me and I'm making a renewed vow to spend the effort get/stay fit, I'm wondering if you've got any long-term reflections on HIT, etc.

Right now I'm considering:
- One weekly HIT session. Core exercises, low reps, done to failure.
- Two weekly HIIT sessions. Something similar to the Tabeta protocol--20 seconds of sprinting, 10 sec rest, repeat for 5 minutes +warmup and cool down at either end). I've done this on an elliptical machine in the past, I liked it. ( I'll start this in a few months when the elliptical machines start showing up beside the street/in Goodwill)
- Some sort of flexibility routine. I haven't decided what, but I want to be able to bend and flex more easily than I can now.
- Walking 3 times per week. The pooch enjoys a stroll, and so do