Controlling the unholy trinity (salt, sugar, saturated fat)

[Out-to-Lunch]

Two salient facts:

1) Humans are NOT obligate meat eaters. We can make our proteins from plants.
2) It takes 25 calories of feed into a cow to produce 1 calorie of meat.

I realize that second point about calories does not directly address ivins question about growing sufficient acreage of plants that are good for humans for producing protein. However, when you start from a factor of 25x inefficiency, there is a LOT of room for redirecting resources (as HenryD and bloom also stated or alluded to).

Personally, I eat meat and other animal proteins. My attitude is similar to Gumby's. I do not desire to cut it out completely, but I aim to consume a lot less of it than I was raised to.

 

[ivinsfan]

Two salient facts:

1) Humans are NOT obligate meat eaters. We can make our proteins from plants.
2) It takes 25 calories of feed into a cow to produce 1 calorie of meat.

I realize that second point about calories does not directly address ivins question about growing sufficient acreage of plants that are good for humans for producing protein. However, when you start from a factor of 25x inefficiency, there is a LOT of room for redirecting resources (as HenryD and bloom also stated or alluded to).

Personally, I eat meat and other animal proteins. My attitude is similar to Gumby's. I do not desire to cut it out completely, but I aim to consume a lot less of it than I was raised to.

You somehow switched to calories which isn't where this discussion started. all calories are not created equal. animal meat contains many other things besides calories. You certainly aren't suggesting that grass consumed by grass fed beef can be consumed by humans. There certainly is room for redirecting resources, no question about that. It will be interesting to see what food consumption looks like in 10 years. Research in going on to produce a milk substitute that will be identical to cow milk.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

You somehow switched to calories which isn't where this discussion started.

I think I clearly indicated that I switched to discussing calories, and explained why.

 

[HenryD]

animal meat contains many other things besides calories.

Like iron? Your body does not know how to handle the heme iron in meat, because it evolved to handle the non-heme iron in plants. You get it from plants your body regulates and builds your own. From meat it's unregulated. Excess heme iron is a contributor to diabetes and heart disease.

 

[braumeister]

Like iron? Your body does not know how to handle the heme iron in meat, because it evolved to handle the non-heme iron in plants.

I consider that nonsense.
Please provide some reputable sources for such a silly statement.

 

[jollystomper]

To answer the OP's question:

- Salt: I do monitor this, though my DNA test indicated that my BP is less likely to improve with a low sodium diet. DW does not cook with salt, and I minimize (but do not completely avoid) salty food. I do check purchased food for sodium levels and let this influence my purchase.

- Fat: Again, DNA test indicates my weight is not associated with fat intake. I minimize saturated/trans fat but do not worry about unsaturated fat.

- Sugar: I do monitor this, this seems to have made the biggest difference for me. I look at sodas as liquid sugar, and have stopped drinking any sugared soda. I make my own iced tea/lemonade using erythritol, in fact I use erythritol instead of sugar for my home needs. I cut way back on candy and sweets. I do try to keep my daily sugar intake around the recommended daily value, but I do have days when I exceed, I just try to minimize these days.

Overall, everything in moderation, combined with an active lifestyle. I'll eat a couple of doughnuts - once a month.

As for eating out or take out, the serving size is multiple meals, we can't eat all of that in one seating, and that helps. For example, for Fathers Day we had takeout from Outback Steakhouse. I had a 20+ ounce steak, blooming onion, sides, etc., that likely had more that the recommended daily amounts of fat, salt, and sugar . However, that takeout meal turned into 4 home dinners for me.

 

[HenryD]

I consider that nonsense.
Please provide some reputable sources for such a silly statement.

This explains it well.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-safety-of-heme-vs-non-heme-iron/

Click on "Sources Cited" under the video and it lists over a dozen peer-reviewed studies.

 

[bloom2708]

I consider that nonsense.
Please provide some reputable sources for such a silly statement.

Heme iron, sulfur and TMAO are the worst offenders when breaking down meat.

Your body just doesn't know what to do with this stuff.

Imagine injuring your self 3-4 times a day. It is amazing how resilient the human body is. It takes decades to break down, not months/years. Erupting in late 40s, 50s, 60s.

These byproducts build up in the body. They cause/allow easier the cancers that riddle us. Breast, stomach, colon, prostate, bladder. They lead to heart disease and the related. A good "TMAO inhibiter" is not eating meat or at least eating far less.

To say this is a silly statement balks at years/decades of research. If I point you to research, you will say it is nonsense. That is fine.

https://nutritionfacts.org/?s=heme+iron

 

[braumeister]

Well, if that's your idea of a reputable source, then I can leave it up to others to decide for themselves. Worthless to me. But thanks for trying to answer.

 

[HenryD]

Well, if that's your idea of a reputable source, then I can leave it up to others to decide for themselves. Worthless to me. But thanks for trying to answer.

Worthless because it doesn't match your opinion? Care to cite any opposing research?

 

[bloom2708]

Well, if that's your idea of a reputable source, then I can leave it up to others to decide for themselves. Worthless to me. But thanks for trying to answer.

75% of Americans are obese or overweight. It's not the food.

It's bad luck. Genes. Just the way it is.

Cancer, diabetes, heart disease are running rampant. Covid loves the pre-existing conditions. Like a gazelle with hungry lions nearbye.

Carry on.

 

[Gumby]

My recommendation for everyone on this thread - eat what you want and how you want. Stop proselytizing; it just annoys people.

 

[braumeister]

My recommendation for everyone on this thread - eat what you want and how you want. Stop proselytizing; it just annoys people.

Exactly. Just as I said earlier in this thread:

Alas, these "best way to eat" discussions always seem to end up in arguments, much like a discussion of "best religion to follow" or "best political philosophy".

Nobody is ever convinced by any argument in any direction.

Confirmation bias.

 

[bloom2708]

My recommendation for everyone on this thread - eat what you want and how you want. Stop proselytizing; it just annoys people.

I think you should close the thread. When the Admin and a Moderator think a thread is "annoying", time to stop.

Someone, somewhere might find a nugget and the light bulb might go on.

Most likely not for most. The proverbial ship has sailed.

Maybe the next big scare or event or pill causes someone to remember a small nugget.

 

[braumeister]

Please don't misunderstand. Our comments were merely as forum members, not as moderators/administrators. Those comments would normally be labeled as such.

 

[schenbew]

https://nutritionstudies.org/whole-food-plant-based-diet-guide/

https://www.forksoverknives.com/how...er-beginners-guide-starting-plant-based-diet/

When you eat plant based things, the body does good things with it.

When you eat animal based things, the body does bad things with it.

It has never been easier to eat plant based/mostly plant based. It will only get easier.

Good luck on your journey/research. "It's the food" accounts for 90% of issues America and other developed nations are facing. Sad but fixable.

For an alternate view of the Forks Over Knives vegetarian opinion flick, see Denise Minger, who does a nice critique of its'"science" here: https://deniseminger.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/


I concur that 90% of our current health problems are diet related. I strongly disagree that an animal based diet is the problem; as stated numerous times here, processed food, not meat and dairy, is the problem.

It's a safe bet that plant based proteins were not available during the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution before mankind discovered farming approx. 5,000 yrs ago. The fact that the archeological record shows the extinction of thousands of large mammals when they came in contact with early man a pretty compelling argument that we hunted, and ate, animals. Plants and nuts certainly supplemented the early human diet before farming, but did not provide the preponderance of early man's calories.

Further, the human body does not absorb and utilize plant based nutrients and vitamins at the same level as animal based ones. Because their composition is different, you need to eat much more plant food to provide the same amount of nutrients as an animal based diet. In many cases nutrients found in plants are not biologically available to the human digestive system. For instance, vegans must supplement with vitamin B12 since this vitamin is NOT bio-available in plants to the human digestive system in any significant amount.


Finally, healthy crop land (not land artificially made fertile through the use of fertilizers...) traditionally followed a rotational use of planting and animal grazing, where cows, goats, chickens, etc. would feed in the fields and relieve themselves, nourishing and revitalizing the soil. Modern farming methods, which vegan diets are 100% reliant on, require large scale, continuous mono-cropping, which kills millions of small creatures who live in the fields while extracting nutrients from the soil, reducing local animal diversity and requiring the use of pesticides to keep yields up.

 

[6miths]

I concur that 90% of our current health problems are diet related. I strongly disagree that an animal based diet is the problem; as stated numerous times here, processed food, not meat and dairy, is the problem.

It's a safe bet that plant based proteins were not available during the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution before mankind discovered farming approx. 5,000 yrs ago. The fact that the archeological record shows the extinction of thousands of large mammals when they came in contact with early man a pretty compelling argument that we hunted, and ate, animals. Plants and nuts certainly supplemented the early human diet before farming, but did not provide the preponderance of early man's calories.

Further, the human body does not absorb and utilize plant based nutrients and vitamins at the same level as animal based ones. Because their composition is different, you need to eat much more plant food to provide the same amount of nutrients as an animal based diet. In many cases nutrients found in plants are not biologically available to the human digestive system. For instance, vegans must supplement with vitamin B12 since this vitamin is NOT bio-available in plants to the human digestive system in any significant amount.


Finally, healthy crop land (not land artificially made fertile through the use of fertilizers...) traditionally followed a rotational use of planting and animal grazing, where cows, goats, chickens, etc. would feed in the fields and relieve themselves, nourishing and revitalizing the soil. Modern farming methods, which vegan diets are 100% reliant on, require large scale, continuous mono-cropping, which kills millions of small creatures who live in the fields while extracting nutrients from the soil, reducing local animal diversity and requiring the use of pesticides to keep yields up.

+1

Processed foods, predominantly plants, definitely are the problem - corn, sugar cane and beets and other sources of refined sugars, highly processed starches that might as well be simple sugars, possibly many of the plant based oils. Some meat here and there is very unlikely to result in the epic obesity, diabetes, and metabolic syndrome problems that we see today. Thirty years of travels in Africa watching the obesity and diabetes epidemic spread in populations who still have very low meat intakes but have an abundance of simple sugars, starches and oils. There may be reasons to reduce unprocessed meat intake but good health is unlikely among them. And as pointed out, without petrochemical derived fertilizers and pesticides we'd be in the soup trying to provide food for all - plant or animal based.

 

[Gumby]

The young wife and I have a large garden and grow almost all of our own vegetables - fresh during the growing season and home-canned, dried or frozen over the winter. We are constantly trying to eat up every bit of our vegetables and I think we eat better as a consequence. As I mentioned earlier, we do also eat a modest amount of meat.

Our number one job in the garden is building good soil, which we mostly do by continuously adding organic material. We compost everything that can be composted from our kitchen and garden in our compost barrel and periodically take it to the garden. We also sheet compost ground up leaves over the winter. Then I add bags of aged manure in the spring.

We try to learn how and when the bugs will appear, reproduce and eat. Then we plan our planting strategies accordingly -- e.g. - don't put the eggplants out until mid-June after the potato beetles and flea beetles have died down. And plant radishes next to the cucumbers to distract the flea beetles. When necessary, we use organic pest control, such as nematodes, spinosad, neem oil, Bt, beauvaria or just canola oil and soap, as appropriate.

Finally, we try to plant only heirloom varieties, not the commercial standards, and we save the seed from year to year. I think large scale monoculture eventually may turn out to be disastrous.

 

[RAE]

I concur that 90% of our current health problems are diet related. I strongly disagree that an animal based diet is the problem; as stated numerous times here, processed food, not meat and dairy, is the problem.

It's a safe bet that plant based proteins were not available during the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution before mankind discovered farming approx. 5,000 yrs ago. The fact that the archeological record shows the extinction of thousands of large mammals when they came in contact with early man a pretty compelling argument that we hunted, and ate, animals. Plants and nuts certainly supplemented the early human diet before farming, but did not provide the preponderance of early man's calories.

Further, the human body does not absorb and utilize plant based nutrients and vitamins at the same level as animal based ones. Because their composition is different, you need to eat much more plant food to provide the same amount of nutrients as an animal based diet. In many cases nutrients found in plants are not biologically available to the human digestive system. For instance, vegans must supplement with vitamin B12 since this vitamin is NOT bio-available in plants to the human digestive system in any significant amount.


Finally, healthy crop land (not land artificially made fertile through the use of fertilizers...) traditionally followed a rotational use of planting and animal grazing, where cows, goats, chickens, etc. would feed in the fields and relieve themselves, nourishing and revitalizing the soil. Modern farming methods, which vegan diets are 100% reliant on, require large scale, continuous mono-cropping, which kills millions of small creatures who live in the fields while extracting nutrients from the soil, reducing local animal diversity and requiring the use of pesticides to keep yields up.

+1, I totally agree. Processed foods are what is killing us, that is very clear. Stay away from most highly processed foods (especially things like industrial seed oils, high fructose corn syrup, sugary drinks, and foods made from refined flour), and you will go a long way toward maintaining good health. Saturated fat is NOT the problem.........humans evolved to consume saturated fat. Salt is not the problem either (for most people). Foods with added sugar are the only one of the OP's "holy trinity" that people should be avoiding. There is a ton of information on all of this out there, if people want to do their own research (including hundreds of published studies in medical journals). Stay away from all of the processed foods in the grocery store (which fill all of the middle aisles of the store, usually), and stick to eating whole/real foods, that our bodies evolved to consume - meat, fish, shellfish, eggs, nuts, veggies (all kinds), some fruit (berries are best). Fermented dairy (cheese, etc) is okay also, if you can tolerate it.

 

[Amethyst]

Certainly these play a part. As does incessant screen time, something which was already becoming a concern when I was a small child, long long ago. My mother allowed an hour a day of TV cartoons and kids' shows, before shooing me out the door to play. And she made it clear that this was for my health.

75% of Americans are obese or overweight. It's not the food.

It's bad luck. Genes. Just the way it is.

 

[ddoorn]

Book - Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us

I love this book for how well it exposes the scientific exploitation of our tastebuds for profit.

https://smile.amazon.com/Salt-Sugar-Fat-Giants-Hooked/dp/0812982193/

Knowing that I'm being duped has helped motivate me. If I know a certain "food" (most of these products are Real Food) product is going to call my name until it is All Gone, I no longer allow it in my home.

i will occasionally indulge when dining out, but truth is, after detoxing from this stuff I'm often surprised over how unimpressed I am by the taste of this stuff when I DO sample.

I love Michael Pollan's basic food rule. Follow these 7 words, IMHO, and you can toss out all the diet books:

Eat Food, Mostly Plants, Not Too Much

I used to top the scales at 450# and have maintained a weight range between 210-220 for over 20 years.

I love the supportive online health and wellness community SparkPeople.com, very positive place to go to make great changes in your health!

Don

 

[Catmandu]

Make your own food. I do and I can easily control salt and sugar. There are also great options at restaurants if you stick to plain vegetables and sauteed meats and fish. Processed foods and simple carbs are overtaking saturated fat as the culprit of disease. This is especially true for diabetes and heart disease.

Coconut oil is saturated but healthy. Look at the cultures that consume high quantities of healthy fats and you will see that they have a low incidence of heart disease and stroke. On the other hand, vegetable oils rapidly become oxidized and are considered to be more harmful than saturated fats by many scientists.

I eat coconut, avocadoes, grass-fed butter, and beef in moderation and have actually seen my cholesterol stay stable. Fats are also important for feeling full and satisfied.

But, I would caution you that each person is different and needs are different. It is also based on family history. I form my opinions from scientific journals and that's what I'm comfortable doing.

Here's to good eating!

 

[Catmandu]

Egg yolks

Animals eat plants. We eat those animals to get their protein because most think that is how you get protein.

I don't expect anyone to have guilt over eating eggs. The yolk is the purest form of cholesterol available to eat.

You should only have guilt if you have high cholesterol and consider eggs healthy. I can't compete with keto stuff.

It is a fun topic to discuss, but the old "argument" pops up and it is over. Oh well.

We can certainly get some protein from combining grains, beans, and seeds. I was a vegetarian for years and had no issues.

I believe there is little evidence that eating egg yolks raises cholesterol. I would also say that the idea of cholesterol causing heart disease is rapidly falling out of favor. There are too many other factors, the largest being processed sugars and other highly processed foods. I'm not sure of the exact numbers but about 60% of those having heart attacks have normal cholesterol.

A person can be vegan and eat processed food all day and become unhealthy.

Lot's of good information that people are presenting. However, every person's metabolism and genetic makeup are different.

 

[30yeardraw]

Why do you group fats with sugar and salt?

I thought people were finally moving away from the "fat is bad idea".. Fats certainly do not belong in the same group as sugar..

Agree ; The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz - A 30-minute Instaread Summary: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet

 

[imnontrad]

5 years ago I actually INCREASED my fat intake.

My blood sugar was 200 and I was diagnosed as Type II diabetic. My research showed that fat slows down the absorption of carbs so it evens out the blood sugar spikes. In addition, the carbs are absorbed slower if there is something like protein in the stomach already. So I never buy anything low/non fat and if have something like toast, I have it with a LOT of butter and only after I have eaten something non-carb.
In addition, I started using a magnesium supplement called "Natural Calm".
The result? An A1C of 5.5 - now not only not diabetic but not even in the prediabetic category.
I like cooking from scratch so that eliminates a lot of the salt/sugar in prepackaged foods. I also use Braggs Liquid Aminos instead of Soy Sauce to reduce salt without losing flavor.
But I also found out that using sugar substitutes can cause metabolic problems. So I am reducing these (not off of them completely) and going back to sugar.