Neighbor's Wood Smoke Unbearable; Appears There's No Legal Recourse; What to Do?

[RobbieB]

Even here in "pollution sensitive" CA where you can no longer buy a new house with solid fuel appliance there are no restrictions on those who have only a wood stove for heat.

Lotsa cheap natural gas here and if you have it you are restricted from burning on 3 different levels. No burn, registered EPA stoves only and please don't burn.

But if you have only a stove for heat, you are free to pollute as much as needed.

 

[NateW]

First, I understand your frustration. Second, I think that you need to recognize that that family has the right to burn wood and since the fire marshall reported all was in order then there probably isn't very much that you can force them to do. While my guess is that they burn wood because that is all that they can afford, it might be that they burn wood because that seems to them to be their only option.

I think I would have a chat with a local woodstove company and see if what you describe is very common and if they have any ideas on any possible solutions. Is their chimney tall enough?

Also where you said:... it doesn't make any sense to me that if your doors and windows are all closed that smoke will be infiltrating your house... you may want to talk with a HVAC contractor about that.

Also, perhaps you should talk with the health department or environmental quality... while they may have the legal right to burn wood at the same time they don't have the right to polute. I wonder if their woodstove is in comformance with the requisite standards if it is producing that much smoke. We have a modern woodstove and when we burn wood there is very little noticeable odor when standing outside.

You might try going over and talking with them and seeing if they are at all empathetic and might be willing to work with you to try to find a solution. A new woodstove would probably be cheaper than moving.

Thanks for commenting. On the day I noticed the worst of the smokey smell inside DW used the drier and that will depressurize the house and cause air infiltration.

Unfortunately, Virginia has no non-business emissions or burning regulations, except for open burning. From looking at the house and the heavy slow moving smoke output, the draft is non-existent. He's using a fireplace chimney. Fire marshall said stove is in the basement. He also said the stove and chimney were cleaned this fall (not sure if he received proof or not). Land records note house has a fireplace and an oil furnace. There are two flues in the short brick chimney (barley higher than the roof ridge). Cinderblock construction, 1200 square feet, built 1962. Roof needs replacing per shingles earing up at their corners and it has multiple patches and a blue plastic tarp over part of it. So my guess is the family has no money for repairs, fuel oil or to even purchase firewood. The owner retrieves big chunks from an uncovered wood pile to take inside as needed. There is a dumptruck on the property, and I bet he gets his wood for free from job sites.

There are several nonrunning cars on the property and assorted farm animals (none of which bother me, it's only the smoke). So I do understand their plight, feel downright bad for them and thought about extending a helping hand and perhaps creating a win/win situation for both of us, but am hesitant because I am a little apprehensive and think they might try to take advantage of the situation.

I do not wish to cause them any grief, so I do not wish to attempt to litigate (and probably would only waste money on an attorney and create grief and animosities).

We are leaning towards moving, as there are several other things we have come to dislike about our house and location. We should have been more patient and done more soul searching as to where we want to retire.

The people in our community are quite friendly, but just about everyone in our neighborhood works and I feel at times I can't relate to them. There are also many families with young scoolage children that live here. I actually refer to the place as "Whoville" from Dr. Suess' The Grinch that Stole Christmas, because that is what it reminds me of, but not in a bad way. Yesterday Santa visited the neighborhood via a fire engine, tossing out candy to all the children. I missed out on this as a child. So I have mixed emotions about all of this.

 

[NateW]

Sounds like they don't really know how to burn properly. Very little smoke should come out of a properly burning wood stove. Probably burning semi green wood and closing the air intake way down on the stove to keep it smoldering and not getting too hot in the house. It is also unsafe for them as they are risking chimney fires.
Not sure how to address it with them directly without causing a riff.
I really feel for you as that would annoy the hell out of me.
We live in the woods of NH and have a wood stove ourselves but I bought a new one that is much more efficient with a secondary burn chamber etc.
We burn about 1 chord of wood per winter but use baseboard hot water as our primary heat source. If I run a wood stove constantly my house gets too hot and I end up having to open windows which kind of defeats the purpose when it is 0 degrees out.
Neighbors are far enough away and I actually enjoy the mellow smell of wood burning when outside in the winter.

I was hoping the fire marshall would make an impact but it appears the stove may be oversized and the air is being choked off to control the temperature. I'm sure it is an older model and uses poor quality wood gotten for free.

When phoning the fire marshall, in addition to sharing my smoke problem with him, I expressed concern about creasote build up and chimney /house fires. A fireplace flue is being used.

I'd be in hog heaven if they could burn their stove cleanly. I'm not against them using a wood stove for heating. It's the quantity and quality of the smoke. It does not even smell like wood smoke. It's acrid, rancid, pungent and extremely offensive and downright overpowering. I actually like the smell of a limited amount of oak wood smoke, but this is nowhere near that!

 

[427Vette]

Why don't you go buy a bottle of booze, case of beer and a plate of Christmas cookies and go introduce yourself with these items in your hands. With these items you are bound to hit on something they might like. Start off with some small talk and maybe find some common ground with them and have a simple neighborly discussion/visit. Hopefully you can enjoy a beer together. You don't want to start off by saying that you are the guy that just bought the house right behind his and your wood smoke is pissing me off to the point that I am thinking of hiring a legal team or selling my house. Simply find a spot in the conversation to delicately insert how his method of wood burning is bothersome to you and especially your wife. Tell him about the health problems your wife is having then offer some solutions. You could bring up that you are willing at your expense have someone check out his chimney and drafting situation, buy him a newer more efficient after burn stove and maybe some dry firewood. I am guessing that they don't know how bad it is affecting you.

I am guessing that he doesn't know how to burn wood very well. He needs to be educated that smaller, hotter fire is way more clean and efficient then a large smoldering fire. He may just need a little education.

You are judging a book by it's cover by making the assumption that they are poor because of the items in their front yard or the condition of their house. I work for all different walks of life... people will fool you every time!

 

[MRG]

You should move. The stove is only part of your issue; the noise will start to become more noticeable as you live there. That's assuming you can get some kind of solution to the smells. Some people like the way they live and can take offense to good natured help( i.e. lemme buy you a stove) or however you want to meet your neighbor. I can see a lot of ways that ends poorly.

I wouldn't be concerned about disclosure issues down the road when you sell . We were screwed on a house with a basement that collapsed and there's not a lot of recourse.

 

[tb001]

I don’t know how much a winters worth of good wood would cost, but it must be cheaper than moving. And probably cheaper than all of the remediation efforts you’re making.

I would probably try and be neighborly and explain the issue, see if you could buy them a cord of wood and see if it helps. If so, I’d just offer to buy it for them, assuming we’re not talking about 1000s of dollars. Worst case scenario they try to take advantage and you just stop what you’re doing. Very little to lose, as long as you’re not approaching it with animosity.

 

[PoorOldCountryBoy]

Air cleaners

OP, Just sharing my experience HTH - DW and I bought a midsize Honeywell air cleaner (for 1200 square feet) and noticed a HUGE difference in allergies this year. It works for kitchen smoke and the like as well. It has settings for allergens, germs, general cleaning. We usually use allergen setting but did run the germ setting when a neighbor stopped by unexpectedly (can't be too careful with all those COVID things running around hee hee...)



Anyway, If you are desperate they are about $150 each, pick up two from Walmart or your favorite retailer, run them 24/7 and see how they do. They run pretty quiet, btw.

 

[NateW]

I guess you will be moving?

Yes, it's looking that way.. DW is already looking online for new places. I'm beginning to downsize, getting ready for the inevitable.

 

[NateW]

First, that really sucks. I feel very bad for you. I’ve found myself in similar situations in the past, but nothing so bad as yours. Second, there’s been some good ideas already about using your HVAC to limit the issue inside your house. In that regard, I’m wondering if an HVAC person could create positive pressure in your house. I know I’ve worked in buildings where the doors won’t even shut due to positive pressure. Of course you’d have to filter the air coming in to create that pressure, but it would keep all other air out.

As for selling the house, you will have a disclosure issue. You now are fully aware of this issue and denying it will put you at risk financially when the sellers find out. If it comes to selling, try to find someone who smokes in their house. They’ll not likely care.

Last, contact the EPA. I understand that the city/state has a law that prevents action against wood burning stoves, but that doesn’t mean the person can pollute. There must be some limit to what an individual can disburse into the air. Another aspect is the smoke. It seems like they are burning wood that is unsuitable for the stove. While it may be true that no laws can be made against the individual, a reasonable question would be that the law does not protect individuals from burning contrary to the manufacture’s instructions/requirements. I’ve never had a wood stove, but any fire pit I’ve bought says to burn seasoned hardwood.

Unfortunately, all I have to offer are random thoughts. I wish you well in dealing with this. Unfortunately, I think you’re going to end up moving or at least becoming a snowbird.

Thanks for your thoughts. I went to the USEPA website first during my research and it referred me to my state of residents Dept. Of Environmentally Quality. Virginia has no regulations other than stating smoke shall not be limited from residential wood fired appliances.

DW also wondered about the real estate disclosure issue. I just checked and luckily, Virginia is on our side this time. Here is a partial quote from Nolo on the matter: "In many states, the law requires a home seller to disclose to a potential buyer any problems or defects known about the home. In Virginia, however, the seller is obligated only to provide the buyer with a “Residential Property Disclosure Statement,” (Code of Virginia § 55-519), which contains minimal information. The first item on this disclosure form states that the seller “makes no representations or warranties about the condition of the property or its attachments.” Essentially this means the seller is not responsible for informing the buyer about anything wrong with the property, and it is up to the buyer to find any problems prior to closing..."

Also, since the smoke is not from within the property, in my opinion, may be a defect in location and not the property itself.

 

[NateW]

If you try to reduce the problem, one thing to work on is to have a positive pressure in the home. It is a little troublesome, because any air you introduce to raise the pressure in the home needs to be very well filtered and heated, or at least your regular furnace will end up heating it. It would be wise to seal it up well, that will reduce, needed inflow air, filter requirements, heating and fan noise.

Thanks, good information. We do need to bring in air occasionally to vent odors and get oxygen. I used to crack open a couple windows before I fully realized what was going on. That was most likely the cause of our breathing issues. I kept thinking "we need more outside air" and made it worse. I like the idea of filtering the incoming air.

 

[NateW]

OP - Sounds like air is coming in your house bring in the smoke smell.
Do you have a fireplace ? as they are bad for this.

Basically your furnace burns air in the house and sends it up the chimney, then since your house now is low pressure, air comes in via tiny cracks/crevices.

You could go around the house and find the air leak spots, and seal them. Possibly even call your Utility company for an energy audit, and it may help find the leaks. Basically you want to weather proof your place.

Then quite possibly provide a fresh air intake for the furnace, so it burns less of the household air, and creates less of a negative pressure. You could filter this air so it does not smell.

Thanks Sunset. I discovered two days ago leaving windows unlocked creates air leaks. I had 3 upstairs ones unlocked because I regularly cracked them half an inch to get fresh air. Locking them nearly eliminated smoke infiltration. The house was built in 2012 and is incredibly tight. Cooking odors linger for a day or more and that is with using the range vent.

Furnace is a condensing one, thus there is no vent stack, simply two 2 inch pvc pipes out the side of the house. Intake air is from outside. Water heater vents through a 2 inch pve pipe too. Now it does draw inside air.

We do have a gas fireplace, but it is direct vent, meaning combustion air is from outside.

 

[NateW]

I live just down the way from you in VA. I think you got some good advice from other posters. If you live in a new development then I think you definitely have some leaks that outside air is getting in. Our new houses are crap and an energy audit will make you loose your mind.

Hi Paulz. I discovered I was causing a good bit of the air leakage leaving three windows locked (upstairs ones). I now have a stuffy air problem from lack of outside air. DW has reluctantly said I can seal into an open window one of our box fans having a MERV 13 filter duct taped to it.

Funny you should mention construction quality. The home inspector I hired to look at our house prior to purchasing said he was not mentioning any names, but the three builders who's name begin with "R" has a very poor reputation for building quality homes. Ryan built ours. I think Ryland may be one of the other Rs. The drywall finishing is very poor in our house and some of the electrical cable runs go through splintered punched out holes in the basement OSB board floor joists. Oh and on one side of our house the vinyl siding is quite wavy.

 

[38Chevy454]

Are you set on living in Virginia? Might be good opportunity to downsize and move into a warmer climate area of the country.

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

Yes, it's looking that way.. DW is already looking online for new places. I'm beginning to downsize, getting ready for the inevitable.

I don't blame you. Your choices are few and as hard as it is to face, under the circumstances, moving, while not ideal, seems like your best long term solution.

 

[Buckeye]

That's a really great idea. Here in California we have tons of wildfires (or arson) every year now and the stink is awful. An air purifier helps but using the HVAC fan would be far superior I'm sure. I currently have a MERV 8 filter but I might buy a couple of better grade ones for the next time we have problems.
Thanks.

Does a higher quality filter cause any issues (long term?) for the HVAC system? I'm not really sure how to ask the question but it seems a higher quality filter would impede air flow.

 

[Jerry1]

Does a higher quality filter cause any issues (long term?) for the HVAC system? I'm not really sure how to ask the question but it seems a higher quality filter would impede air flow.

It depends on the system. I installed a better filter once in my previous house and had a problem. I didn’t even believe the technician when he said that was the problem, but I did some research and indeed it is an issue and I never had the problem again using lower MERV filters. In my current house I use a MERV 8 and things seem to be fine. I don’t know how to tell which systems can handle the higher MERV filters and which ones can’t.

 

[NateW]

I'm beginning to see a pattern here....

Seriously, it looks like either first trying the filtering options and failing that, then moving, will be your best options. You can try going the EPA route, but I wouldn't expect much from them. They deal with major polluters and one guy with a smokey stove is not on their agenda.

State law is on the side of the guy with the stove. If you want to sue in federal court check out the costs first. It's probably cheaper to move.

And oddly the house we bought was on the market 9 months before the one directly across the street and the next door neighbor's. Well, the next door neighbor that moved said they were moving into a local apartment to save money while they were having a new home built. That sounded odd to me.

I did search the neighborhood group's Facebook page for key words "smoke," "smell" and the like and found nothing. And there were no pertinent posts from the previous owner, who by chance is a real estate agent, but not the one we used. I think at some point before we move, I'll remove my post noting the woodsmoke.

I also searched on "radon" and it was scary reading some of the posts where people posted numbers. (Frederick County, VA has some of the highest radon levels in the country). One was over 20 picocuries (sp?) I think 4 is the number the EPA gives as the cutoff for mitigation. We had an owner supplied test at the time of sale and it stated level was under 4 pc. I do have three radon test kits on order and plan to retest asap. I read it's easy to cheat on radon tests by opening windows. At the time of sale I knew I should retest, but never got around to it. We have a passive vent and I may put a fan in it if numbers are elevated. Several posts said that lowered radon to acceptable levels.

I just sealed in one of our windows a box fan with a MERV 13 filter on it blowing filtered air in. Luckily, there is little wood smoke smell today, but wind speed is 0 and the air quality index is reading 50 with really high levels of the smaller than 2.5 micron particles.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

Does a higher quality filter cause any issues (long term?) for the HVAC system? I'm not really sure how to ask the question but it seems a higher quality filter would impede air flow.

It certainly could if you don't change the filter regularly. I only use the heater for about 4-5 months a year and the a/c very rarely. I would change the filter every 60 days or more often if needed instead of the usual 90 days of use. I just got a new heater in March and they told me it took a high efficiency filter that needed replacing every 30 days. Since I did not use the unit all summer, I checked it the other day for the first time and it looked almost like new and I've been running the heater for a little over a month now. Their filter is one of these flimsy see through woven non pleated ones with no MERV rating and it caught practically nothing, so thinking it's cheap junk. My pleated MERV 8 always caught tons of dog and cat hair and other unidentifiable stuff. I also had the house weatherized and sealed so maybe there is not so much pollutants in the my now, I'll know better when I change my pleated filter in 90 days

 

[NateW]

+1

Since there is no legal recourse, there is no way that you can force your neighbor to stop doing this. You can move, but if you do then you would be well advised to thoroughly observe and check the surroundings of any house you may be considering, before you buy it.

Another thing to consider is that many of us, myself included, are finding the urge to make other people do what we want is much stronger during times such as this pandemic, when so much of what goes on is NOT what we want. Maybe you will find it is not so bad later on, once the pandemic is over? Or not. But meanwhile, from what you are saying apparently there is absolutely nothing you can do except move.

That is what I am realizing too. This is more of a "cut your losses and move on" and "live and learn".

Perhaps the pandemic made the situation worse. Although we stayed home most days before the pandemic, we are home all the time now. But more importantly, perhaps the wood burner family is at home a much larger percentage of the time compared to pre pandemic. The smoke was a minor annoyance last fall and winter. I do know it was much windier last fall and winter, with serveral windy days a week with 20 plus mph. I also did not notice such bad air quality numbers and inversion days as this fall. We got one trace of snow last winter of a half inch. That's all. Normal is 24 inches. We have had 14 so far this December.

I did check and late summer there was a switch from an el nino to a la nina weather pattern which could explain the change in local weather patterns and a degredation of air quality here this fall.

 

[NateW]

One thing that bugs me is noise.
When we looked for houses, my big thing was to go in the back yard, and sit down, close my eyes and listen for 10 minutes. Then do the same in the front yard.
All, from buying a house previously under a flight path of an airport 10 miles away

Thanks Sunset. Well, noise just happens to be DW's complaint about this house. As I noted earlier, we are 300 feet from a highway with a stoplight near us and the truckers use their engine brakes all day and a good part of the night. DW will no longer sit in our screened in porch out back, the side the highway is on. Our bedroom is at the back of the house too. The open concept with vaulted ceilings we have greatly amplifies and distorts sounds. The open concept may be ok, but we won't have vaulted ceilings next time.

Upon stepping out of the car when we first visited this house last year, the first thing I noticed was the traffic noise. There are 200 feet of woods between us and the highway and it was summer. You could not see the highway, but we knew it was right there because that is the way we came into the neighborhood. I kept noting to DW the noise may be a problem, bit she was in love with the house, I think. During the fall, After the tree leaves dropped, the traffic noise got noticeably louder. I have constant tinnitus, so the traffic noise is not a deal breaker with me. But now DW hates it. I do not like the accoustics of inside the house on the main floor, through.

One place in Roanoke, VA we looked at we passed on in part because the property was half a block from I-81. We also crossed off any properties within a mile or so of railroad tracks, so we never visited those. When I lived in Northern Virginia, the last few years I was there the flight path into Reagan National Airport changed and it was right over our house most days and it was an annoyance and we were 13 miles south of the airport.

 

[NateW]

OP - Another option might be to buy the neighbor's property. Then kick them out.

That's definitely doable. It's valued at $135,000 for tax purposes and the County assesses at market value. But it looks like we are moving.

Oh and another gripe about the house we own: Frederick County increased our property taxes by 26% to build a new elementary school. 17% was an increase in the assessed value and there was a 9% increase in the tax rate. The increase amounts to about $600 a year.

 

[NateW]

I can feel for you. We did nearly the exact same thing in 2001 when we contracted for the house we're in now, only about a half-hour north up I-81 from you, when we moved to WV. It was pure dumb luck that it didn't happen to us. While I tried to anticipate every possible negative to the location, a smokey stove was not one of them.

Thanks Walt. It's good to know there are other ERs near us. I hope sharing my experience can save other folks on this list from grief. I plan to now look closely for spark arrestors on nearby chimneys and view the online tax record property descriptions of nearby properties for those houses we are seriously considering. But the property record for the wood burner stove household does not have the wood-burning stove in the description (says forced air oil heat with fireplace).

 

[statsman]

Hi Paulz. I discovered I was causing a good bit of the air leakage leaving three windows locked (upstairs ones). I now have a stuffy air problem from lack of outside air.

Depending on the level of HVAC installed, you may be able to get that remedied. Here in Central Texas for the newer houses (ours is an early 2019 build), the houses are extremely well sealed due to the summer heat. As such, air flow could be a problem when the HVAC is not running the AC or the heater. For that, the HVAC installer set up their system to cycle air a minimum of 28 minutes an hour when there isn't a cooling or heating need. It really does keep the air fresher, in addition to continuing to filter allergens during the mild weather periods.

Does a higher quality filter cause any issues (long term?) for the HVAC system? I'm not really sure how to ask the question but it seems a higher quality filter would impede air flow.

As others have stated, much depends on the level of HVAC installed. Ours came installed with a MERV 10 pretty wide (and expensive) media filter. Because we were retired and at the house a lot and have three indoor cats, we asked the HVAC installer about moving to a MERV 13 filter to increase filtering capability. Works well for us, but the HVAC systems in newer houses here are pretty robust. Makes the dual HVAC unit setup we had back in California seem like basic room AC units in comparison.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

I just knew this would be an interesting thread right from the title: Suburban folk move to rural area, then complain about rural life. It reminds me of situations here where:
* people complain about farm "smells"
* people complain about chickens (well, specifically roosters)
* people complain about the sound of gunfire in the distance

Even on the home front, the (ex) complained about new houses being proposed down the road (while living in a house that had just been recently built).

OTOH, wood stove operating properly and using seasoned wood should not be putting out smoke all day. I burn between 4-5 full chords of wood per year. I just looked outside and there is no, zero visible smoke coming out. Only when I first start up the stove or for a couple minutes after adding wood.

If your neighbor is splitting up big chunks of wood and then taking them in the house, there is an excellent chance that the wood isn't seasoned properly. In my case, I am using wood cut, split, and stacked early in 2019 and some earlier (2017, 2018). I'm cutting down trees, bucking it up, splitting and stacking wood for the 2021 winter...and even with that I am behind (should have had it done spring of 2020). Fortunately some of what I've been processing is "standing dead" trees (I own 40+ acres of mostly hardwood forest) so I think it can be ready for the next winter.

Someone also mentioned damping the fire down. This could also be an issue (and can be dangerous due to creosote build up). Combine that with green/high moisture content wood and its a bad situation. Not efficient to burn, lots of smoke, can eventually lead to a chimney fire.

Finally, I think the OP is on to something in terms of how much work to keep up a large house. My next move is smaller, and likely to not have any of the toys I've accumulated (lots of land, tractor, trailer, wood stove, steep roof, ...) I can only hope I get someone from the city who wants country life.

 

[Paulz]

Funny you should mention construction quality. The home inspector I hired to look at our house prior to purchasing said he was not mentioning any names, but the three builders who's name begin with "R" has a very poor reputation for building quality homes. Ryan built ours. I think Ryland may be one of the other Rs.

Well, the "R" that built my winner was Richmond America!