Neighbor's Wood Smoke Unbearable; Appears There's No Legal Recourse; What to Do?

[braumeister]

From what I've read here, I would expect the neighbor to be in serious danger of a chimney fire from creosote buildup. I'm a little surprised the fire inspector didn't look at that.

As to the OP's problem, we all make mistakes when choosing where to live. I certainly made my share. Fortunately, it sounds like he will be able to recover from this one.

 

[Bob_Walter]

The best neighbor is no neighbor.

 

[NateW]

We heat using a wood stove for over 10 years. Are you sure about the 400 feet in distance? Maybe I can smell the smoke from our stove 200 feet away at most and our stove is at least 20 years old. In fact, our stove is going now, 3 feet from me, there is zero smell outside. Perhaps they burn unseasoned wood or garbage.

I'm not sure what to tell you, perhaps offer to buy them seasoned wood and new EPA cert stove. If they say no or they get angry, I guess you might think about moving.

Even if there was a legal way, the problem is getting the neighbor to comply. Usually the neighbor will want revenge and it starts a war.

Thanks Bob. I'm not fighting this one. Not with the law on his side. I just hope we can make it through the winter and then find a new place and move and then sell this place while the pandemic rages on. All of this has me quite worried. Two months ago I hadn't a care in the world and told DW not to worry about the pandemic because we were safe and secure in our new home and could wait it out, no matter how long it took. Little did I know. Luckily we can pay cash for the new place and sell this house later and still have plenty to live on before selling our current house.

Per Google Maps' distance measurer, the straight line distance is 400 feet. There are woods between the properties, so you'd think the trees would disperse the smoke. But it's suffocating. Two conditions make it worse. 1. We are directly downwind from him in the winter (he is due west-northwest) and 2. when there is no breeze, it's dead still for a day or two due to an inversion layer.

He has this bright light (metal halide) illuminating his property at night and now if I look at it, I can plainly see the haze between us. Wind is 4 mph from the North West to dead still. AQI is 50 per Weatherbug.

When viewed during the daytime, the smoke is thick and heavy and as it exits the chimney, falls down across his roof and I can't see it after that due to the woods. I do have a clear view of his chimney opening and use binoculars. Chimney has a stainless steel large mesh screen and cap. Chimney barley clears the roof ridge.

This smoke stinks to high heaven too. Even when it's not smoking badly it stinks. The stench stops when there is no smoke (meaning it's not burning, which is rare), or the breeze is not directly from his house. The smell burns my eyes, throat, and is acrid, harsh, offensive, and overrpowering. DW thinks so too, so I don't think it's an allergy or sensitivity issue. I hope he's not burning something toxic. I have never smelled smoke like this before moving to this house.

I did see him attempting to split a large log, got it split into half and I got a really good look at it with my binoculars and it appears to be either sweet gum or tulip poplar. I could not ascertain how seasoned it was. He pulled it from an uncovered pile of what looked like free wood he hauled in his dump truck. He had great difficulty splitting it and the half piece he carried inside was almost too heavy for him to carry. So that is what he's burning I think. Occasionally I smell garbage smoke from it too.

I am also surprised during inversion layer days no one else took offense to the smoke to the point of calling the fire marshal. Fire marshal told me no other complaints were made.

Due to the constant smoke I believe he's using huge pieces of crap wood and possibly green wood and either choking off the air and/or has a non-existent draft. It smokes 24/7. But oddly, it was not billowing white smoke when the fire marshal visited and the marshal considered it a normal smoke level and said all was well with his set-up.

The owner is using either the fireplace or oil furnace flue (fire marshal visited me after visiting him and the marshal was invited into this person's house). Fire marshal said it's a wood-burning stove in the basement and he agreed that the owner is probably choking off the air to control heat output.

 

[NateW]

Why would the seller have to disclose that the neighbor's wood smoke really bothers him? That is something I have never, ever seen on a disclosure form.

Now if I were a serious buyer, and I specified that I couldn't stand wood smoke, then it would be unethical for the real estate agent to say, "Oh, I'm not aware of any issues there." But sue-able? I'm not at all sure.

A few years back Virginia required sellers to disclose known property defects but due to the number of court cases and difficulty in proving the seller knew, Virginia changed to a buyer beware, do your due diligence and seller makes no claims of warranties or defects.

My opinion is this is not an property defect, but an unfortunate circumstance becaue the smoke is external to the property.

 

[NateW]

Burning wet green wood makes a lot more smoke. Neighbor probably not using nice aged dried out wood.

Besides the filters in your home and evaluating air entry points, I think you may end up having to move if your sensitivity is too much for the conditions.

Thanks 38Chevy454. I agree with all your points. I saw him attempt splitting large chunks of crap wood.

 

[NateW]

Probably correct that it’s not a required disclosure but when the neighbors talk and the new owners find out that’s why Nate moved, they may try to sue. Or, the next owner calls the fire marshal and gets an earful from him. Either way, it presents a dilemma. The seller knows of an issue. That creates a potential problem when selling.

Although it's not required in Virginia for the seller to disclose, I've decided to keep quote around the neighborhood about this.

 

[NateW]

Many places out west, building codes require that any wood burning stoves, fireplaces or heaters have catalytic converters in them. The pollutants are burned prior to going out of the chimney.

I agree about offering to buy such a stove for the family. It's cheaper than moving.

In Virginia, per the USEPA only newly purchased stoves require catalysts. He has an old stove.

 

[NateW]

Lemme guess, you're within sight of, or nearly so, to I-81, the second most used north-south trucking route in the East after I-95. "Jake brakes" are a royal pain to be around.

Most of Virginia is a beautiful state. But not near I-81.

We back up to Route 7, near I 81. The trucks are stopping at a light on Route 7 and using their Jacobs Brakes. I think the truckers like the noise. I've seen them used when the trucks are unloaded.

 

[Bob_Walter]

Thanks Bob. I'm not fighting this one. Not with the law on his side. I just hope we can make it through the winter and then find a new place and move and then sell this place while the pandemic rages on. All of this has me quite worried. Two months ago I hadn't a care in the world and told DW not to worry about the pandemic because we were safe and secure in our new home and could wait it out, no matter how long it took. Little did I know. Luckily we can pay cash for the new place and sell this house later and still have plenty to live on before selling our current house.

Per Google Maps' distance measurer, the straight line distance is 400 feet. There are woods between the properties, so you'd think the trees would disperse the smoke. But it's suffocating. Two conditions make it worse. 1. We are directly downwind from him in the winter (he is due west-northwest) and 2. when there is no breeze, it's dead still for a day or two due to an inversion layer.

He has this bright light (metal halide) illuminating his property at night and now if I look at it, I can plainly see the haze between us. Wind is 4 mph from the North West to dead still. AQI is 50 per Weatherbug.

When viewed during the daytime, the smoke is thick and heavy and as it exits the chimney, falls down across his roof and I can't see it after that due to the woods. I do have a clear view of his chimney opening and use binoculars. Chimney has a stainless steel large mesh screen and cap. Chimney barley clears the roof ridge.

This smoke stinks to high heaven too. Even when it's not smoking badly it stinks. The stench stops when there is no smoke (meaning it's not burning, which is rare), or the breeze is not directly from his house. The smell burns my eyes, throat, and is acrid, harsh, offensive, and overrpowering. DW thinks so too, so I don't think it's an allergy or sensitivity issue. I hope he's not burning something toxic. I have never smelled smoke like this before moving to this house.

I did see him attempting to split a large log, got it split into half and I got a really good look at it with my binoculars and it appears to be either sweet gum or tulip poplar. I could not ascertain how seasoned it was. He pulled it from an uncovered pile of what looked like free wood he hauled in his dump truck. He had great difficulty splitting it and the half piece he carried inside was almost too heavy for him to carry. So that is what he's burning I think. Occasionally I smell garbage smoke from it too.

I am also surprised during inversion layer days no one else took offense to the smoke to the point of calling the fire marshal. Fire marshal told me no other complaints were made.

Due to the constant smoke I believe he's using huge pieces of crap wood and possibly green wood and either choking off the air and/or has a non-existent draft. It smokes 24/7. But oddly, it was not billowing white smoke when the fire marshal visited and the marshal considered it a normal smoke level and said all was well with his set-up.

The owner is using either the fireplace or oil furnace flue (fire marshal visited me after visiting him and the marshal was invited into this person's house). Fire marshal said it's a wood-burning stove in the basement and he agreed that the owner is probably choking off the air to control heat output.

Sorry to hear that.
In the meantime, you can get a box fan or two and tape some good quality furnace filters to the back of them and help clean the indoor air.

I dealt with neighbor issues in the past and it's nerve wracking at best. Moving might be your best bet and in the end you might come out ahead (maybe a better place or better floor plan, etc).

 

[NateW]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Wood smoke is a major health issue the world over. Around here wood burning stoves and fireplaces are forbidden in new builds. We moved into a 100+ year old farm house which used to stand alone but now has residential all around it. The house had 2 fireplaces and a woodstove and a third walled up fireplace. We replaced the woodstove with NG and put high-efficiency inserts into the two fireplaces. We use one of them a fair bit. Main heat is NG. Agree that with dried hard wood we can't really see any smoke coming out of the chimney but one can still catch the scent of smoke if it is a heavy, damp day. Of course, we don't usually have a fire on those days. We only have one close neighbor and they have never mentioned smoke as an issue and we are friendly neighbors.

If the fire marshall has been in I agree with others that there is not much else to do. Good dried hardwood can be relatively expensive. We burn about 6-8 face cords a season and significantly more when we had the woodstove and small children home all day. Not many options that haven't been mentioned. Any chance they have an option to heat with NG or propane? Seriously, sorry to hear of your difficulties.

Thanks for commenting. He's using crap wood unfortunately. There is no natural gas per the county records. Heating is listed as forced air oil heat. I'd be ok with him using good wood, not chocking off the air, and having a propper draft.

 

[jollystomper]

I just knew this would be an interesting thread right from the title: Suburban folk move to rural area, then complain about rural life. It reminds me of situations here where:
* people complain about farm "smells"
* people complain about chickens (well, specifically roosters)
* people complain about the sound of gunfire in the distance

As a city person who moved to a rural area, I agree with this. I was grateful that DW and I knew something about farming when we bought our house, which is across the road from a farm field. We asked the owners what is what like in the Spring, and they said "the smell can get 'ripe' when they fertilize the fields". The first spring it hit us it was quite noticeable. We have gotten used to it. Besides, we will take the farm smells, occasional farm animal that breaks out and wanders across the road, and backups due to farm machinery driving down the road over the drive-by gunfire, ambulance sirens, glass being broken, and screams from fights or worse that we grew up with.

To the OP, I think the suggestions about doing what you can on your property to filter out the smell, and if that is not effective considering moving, are the best. There are always two sides to every internet story of conflict, and one rarely hears both here. I can envision the folks in the "smoke" house (or their family) have been there long before the development. They are not putting up huge fans to intentionally blow the smoke at your house, it is nature doing its thing and they are not responsible for that (at the laws reflect that). Maybe their view is that the traffic, noise, and maybe loss of any natural "views" caused the development is not what they hoped for. They may also see the folks moving into the develop as "rich", and they may be resentful of that - any offers of "I'll buy you good wood/help fix a problem I have with you" may seem condescending. The fact that only you seem to have the issue and it is non-existent or not a big deal to your neighbors does not necessarily make it their problem.

This just may be a case of "I cannot change the other party, so better I change the way I choose to deal with it" - which could be anything from better filters, sealing windows to, in the extreme case, moving. If you are home more due to the pandemic and feel that is why you notice it more, perhaps once the pandemic passes and you can choose to get out more, it will be less of an issue.

 

[MRG]

As a city person who moved to a rural area, I agree with this. I was grateful that DW and I knew something about farming when we bought our house, which is across the road from a farm field. We asked the owners what is what like in the Spring, and they said "the smell can get 'ripe' when they fertilize the fields". The first spring it hit us it was quite noticeable. We have gotten used to it. Besides, we will take the farm smells, occasional farm animal that breaks out and wanders across the road, and backups due to farm machinery driving down the road over the drive-by gunfire, ambulance sirens, glass being broken, and screams from fights or worse that we grew up with.

To the OP, I think the suggestions about doing what you can on your property to filter out the smell, and if that is not effective considering moving, are the best. There are always two sides to every internet story of conflict, and one rarely hears both here. I can envision the folks in the "smoke" house (or their family) have been there long before the development. They are not putting up huge fans to intentionally blow the smoke at your house, it is nature doing its thing and they are not responsible for that (at the laws reflect that). Maybe their view is that the traffic, noise, and maybe loss of any natural "views" caused the development is not what they hoped for. They may also see the folks moving into the develop as "rich", and they may be resentful of that - any offers of "I'll buy you good wood/help fix a problem I have with you" may seem condescending. The fact that only you seem to have the issue and it is non-existent or not a big deal to your neighbors does not necessarily make it their problem.

This just may be a case of "I cannot change the other party, so better I change the way I choose to deal with it" - which could be anything from better filters, sealing windows to, in the extreme case, moving. If you are home more due to the pandemic and feel that is why you notice it more, perhaps once the pandemic passes and you can choose to get out more, it will be less of an issue.

+1

Your comments about folks moving to the country hit close to home, as do the comments about possible resentments.

We've been taken out of our comfort zones by various moves. In the late 90s we moved out, way out. We had an odd 20 acres in the middle of 640 acre farms. In addition to the sounds of farm animals and the smells of fertilizers we had more "fun" with migrating geese, snow geese. Millions of these screaming white geese sitting when some taking off and spooking thousands of others that take off spooking.... all freaking day and night. Occasionally the squawking would stop allowing silence to be noticed, then one would squawk starting these things flying around screaming. They would cover thousands of acres all around us. Remember "The Birds"?

 

[Amethyst]

Perhaps he cannot afford heating oil, and is cutting wood on his own property to heat with. If it doesn't get crazy cold where you are, that would work for heat, along with a few space heaters, electric blankets etc.

Growing up in northern NJ, where winter temps below zero were common (at least back then), we had an oil furnace and floor radiators which made tinkly music when warming up; Dad also cut wood on the property (at least he knew to season it!) and we had a fireplace going in the living room every winter night. The cat and I would lie on the little red rug in front of the fireplace, perfectly happy. I still love the smell of wood smoke from a chimney, although not in the horrrid abundance you describe.

Thanks for commenting. He's using crap wood unfortunately. There is no natural gas per the county records. Heating is listed as forced air oil heat. I'd be ok with him using good wood, not chocking off the air, and having a propper draft.

 

[Retired Expat]

Where we live most folks use wood to heat their homes but from fireplaces which are extremely inefficient so I feel for you! Many the evening where you can’t open a door or go outside. Honestly your cheapest solution might be to offer to install a high efficiency wood stove in the offending neighbors house or a pellet stove.

Many people like to overload their stoves and then dial them down so the fire smolders all day giving off minimal heat but then takes less loading and tending and is always on as theirs might be difficult to relight. Give them a reason why to work with you so they have a benefit and they might play ball.

 

[JoeWras]

I think OP should move, and it sounds like he is highly considering it.

Why? My sister went through something like this. She started seeing every possible defect in a house they bought and had severe buyer's remorse. The thing is, after a year of fret, it morphed into major depression. If your brain keeps getting bathed in negative thoughts, you are at risk of serious, clinical, major depression. This meant it went way beyond the house. Major depression is not to be taken lightly.

She got out of it through therapy and medical treatment. Part of the treatment was to sell the house, even though it was only 2 1/2 years old. She did, moved a few miles away, and I'm happy to report that she got out of this very scary episode and is doing well 15 years later.

 

[WhenIsItTime]

If you are smelling smoke inside your home with your windows closed, you may have a chimney downdraft problem. You should look into that.

Or, see where your furnace fresh air intake is.

 

[Time2]

He has this bright light (metal halide) illuminating his property at night and now if I look at it, I can plainly see the haze between us. Wind is 4 mph from the North West to dead still. AQI is 50 per Weatherbug.

I don't know what AQI has to do with your situation. Obviously your problem is worse than where the AQI is measured.
That got me wondering if there are personal AQI devices, yes there are.
Here's a review, https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-home-air-quality-monitor/
I don't know how this would help you though, you already know it is bad enough for consideration to move away from it.
It may help monitor air quality while you make improvements to air infiltration.

 

[Ready2Go]

I didn't read all of the post but as someone that burns a lot of wood (cast iron stove), I agree with the theory that this is mostly a wood problem. Properly seasoned hardwoods (kept dry!) do not create smoke as you describe. As others have suggested, I'd delicately approach the homeowner and offer to buy them a few cords of seasoned or kiln-dried firewood. Have it delivered, stacked and covered in plastic. Yes, it will cost you some money but it should remedy the problem. Again, I would be very diplomatic. Wood burners tend to be very independent folks that think they know what they're doing. Unfortunately, many of them don't. If this doesn't work, sadly, you may need to move.

 

[NateW]

Here are some smoke pictures

It was a rough night last night. Another inversion layer with a slight drift towards us from the wood smoker. This morning just after sunrise I took these pictures from my elevated deck at the back of my house of the smoke assaulting my neighbor 2 doors up the street. I also included a photo of the smoke through the clump of woods coming from the smokehouse.

 

[NateW]

Does a higher quality filter cause any issues (long term?) for the HVAC system? I'm not really sure how to ask the question but it seems a higher quality filter would impede air flow.

A MERV 13 is too restrictive per our furnace manufacturer's literature. I verify restrictions with a digital manometer and calculate pressure drop across the filter as it relates to system total external static pressure.

I am in luck, though. Our furnace has a Honeywell 5 inch "media" filter frame (have a Honeywell MERV 11 filter in there now) AND this filter frame accepts a Honeywell F300E Electronic Air Cleaner and it's pre- and post-filters with the removal of 4 punch outs! I don't even have to do any electrical wiring because it has a power cord. I've already ordered one. Was a little over $500 with tax, will be here Dec. 23. MERV 12-16 rated with the included post filter. Hopefully this will allow us to stay here over the winter (that's how bad the smoke is). The electronic filter and pre and post filters are within restriction limits.

 

[NateW]

Our home in Bend also got hit hard with forest fire smoke over several years. We installed an electronic air filter (might have been Honeywell) As Denverguy said we ran the furnace fan all the time. The filter was washable so didn't have to replace filters. We were very thankful as it worked great. I think we had smoke 3 or 4 years of the 5 or 6 years we had the filter. Several neighbors were complaining about the smoke. I always showed them our unit

Thanks, that is good to know. We have a Honeywell 5 inch media filter frame in the furnace and it accepts the Honeywell electronic air cleaner. I just ordered one.

 

[HarveyS]

Did you mention that your fireplace draws combustion air from outside? Is that a potential leak point that needs to be addressed?

FWIW, I sold my house in 3 days in late March, the deal fell thru due to pandemic issues, we re-listed and sold in 5 days in late April. Real estate is moving quickly in many parts of the country so if you do want to sell the pandemic should not hold you back. Of course, in your region of the country things may be different.

I still think going and talking with the neighbor as has been suggested may be the best solution in the immediate term. Then, moving since you don't like the house in the short to medium term. Have you contacted a real estate agent or began the process of interviewing them? We went with an agent that staged our home for sale and we feel that helped move it quickly.

 

[tb001]

It sounds like you’ve made the decision to sell, which I totally understand. Regarding all of the stuff other than the smoke, I honestly think every house will come with some negatives, and many are really hard to know ahead of time. Maybe we need a ‘what do/did you not like about your house thread!’ It really ends up being a matter of balance, where the things you love outweigh the rest.

Our last house was 500 ft from a major freeway, though tucked in the trees, so you would never know. And there was no direct sunlight into the home. Even though I was super sensitive to freeway noise, we loved the house and I thought I would get used to it. Nope. And it got worse as we had a family and wanted to be outside.

Our new house is silent, but for the sound of mowers and blowers. It’s wonderful. And the sun streams in the bedroom and kitchen most of the morning. We love it here. But it has those vaulted ceilings you mention and is a lot to take care of. We may feel differently 10 yrs from now, but for now, the positives SO outweigh any negatives.

 

[youbet]

I agree with the theory that this is mostly a wood problem. Properly seasoned hardwoods (kept dry!) do not create smoke as you describe. (

Well....... sorta but not exactly.

I have an older (40+years) Vermont Castings woodstove and use it frequently every winter. In the beginning, I subscribed to "cult" magazines and newsletters and really tried to keep on top of all the scuttlebutt regarding burning wood. We use it less these days.

A hot fire of dry wood generates very little smoke. It's hard to have a hot fire with green wood, so your theory is correct in that regard. But, you can also have a smoky fire with properly seasoned hardwoods. Just load up the stove and starve it for air. People do this to maximize burn time and reduce trips to reload the stove and, of course, just to have the stove put our less heat. This is especially true with a low tech stove.

Just sayin' that OP could buy his neighbor seasoned hardwood and still have most of the problem depending on how the neighbor runs his stove and what type of stove it is. It couldn't hurt though.

It would take:

1. Good wood
2. Good stove
3. Knowledgeable, interested stove operator willing to do things right.

The way OP has described things, it doesn't sound like there is any straight forward way to make this all happen.

 

[Bob_Walter]

That's a lot of smoke.
I would strategize a plan and make sure your wife is okay with everything.
Start looking at other homes, get a feel for what you can get and what you would like to change (besides the smoke issue), maybe a bigger kitchen or whatnot. Go to some open houses. In the spring, when the neighbor isn't using their stove go over there and talk to them, tell them you noticed they burn and you have a couple cords of seasoned hardwood they can have. Don't say anything about the smoke issue, just see what their response is. If they are appreciative perhaps you could buy them a couple cords and that will solve the problem short term, then remain on talking terms. Over time once a relationship develops then state the issue when they burn crap wood.

If their response is f you, get lost, then there's no reason not to move, at that point it's over and you tried. If you move without at least talking to them, that will bother you over time.

You never know how some people will react. A long time ago, we lived in a subdivision and my wife politely asked the neighbor to turn down their music they were blasting. So they cranked it up even further.