Self Driving Cars?

[Texas Proud]

Sorry...wrong word choice. "Many" instead of everyone

Actually I think the correct word is 'a few'...

 

[Midpack]

There have been plenty of comments in this thread from people suggesting that they can't wait until self-driving cars take over and driving is banned.

I can’t wait for SDC, but I don’t assume everyone does, in fact just the opposite. Most people I know personally are against it if not fearful, but every one of them I know are also clueless about where SDC stands today, what the known obstacles are, or what the benefits could be. Many of their specific concerns are already well defined if not already resolved or well on the way. They assume humans are safer, without knowing anything factual about auto accidents/fatalities or causes. They think SDC’s have to be perfect to be safer than humans, that’s demonstrably false. This happens with every transitional technology, fear of change is a well established phenomenon.

FWIW I think it’ll be 20-50 years before level 5 SDC is advanced enough to ban or limit human operated vehicles.

And the period where human operated vehicles coexist with SDC will be fraught with challenges. I suspect accidents in that interim coexist period will be almost entirely the fault of human drivers, and that will facilitate banning or limiting human operated vehicles. No point in debating that view today, none of us can prove how this will unfold, I’m not claiming I can prove my view either yet.

 

[meierlde]

But changes that are coming will help safety before the SDC arrives. Forward collision avoidance with automatic braking will become standard on 2022 vehicles. This will drastically reduce the chance of a car causing a rear end collision by slamming on the brakes when an obstacle ahead appears to be likely to be hit. Pedestrian avoidance is being worked on now. But it is a problem as the collision by the Uber car indicates (the uber car saw the pedestrian, but decided it was a fake return and ignored it).

 

[Totoro]

Those who look forward to banning non self driving cars shouldn't be so hasty as to make the assumption that everyone else agrees with that ideology.

There might be confusion here.


Looking at how horse back riding has evolved, or indeed driving really old classic cars (Ford-T era), it makes sense to me that non-SDC cars will have their own special rules, and outright disallowed in many situations.


I am looking forward to SDCs, and expect it to mean non-SDC will become very restricted indeed. You can take your horse in New York city with some proper permits (I guess?), and in rural areas freely, but you can't take it on the highway.



So, for me it's not a matter of ideology that I want this, just that I expect it to happen. I think many others with me are thinking along the same lines.

 

[meierlde]

There might be confusion here.


Looking at how horse back riding has evolved, or indeed driving really old classic cars (Ford-T era), it makes sense to me that non-SDC cars will have their own special rules, and outright disallowed in many situations.


I am looking forward to SDCs, and expect it to mean non-SDC will become very restricted indeed. You can take your horse in New York city with some proper permits (I guess?), and in rural areas freely, but you can't take it on the highway.



So, for me it's not a matter of ideology that I want this, just that I expect it to happen. I think many others with me are thinking along the same lines.

Actually in most parts of the country it is perfectly legal to ride a horse on the highway. In areas with significant Amish population this is how they get around for example.
I found a Florida and California documents that say that horses are legal on streets, basically it appears if you can ride a bicycle on a road you can ride a horse there. (now if there is a grassy shoulder it might make more sense to ride there put the law says in general a horse is like a bike in a legal sense) Even the NYC rules provide that you can ride a horse on streets not on expressways or parkways etc. Of course if there is a grassy shoulder riding the horse there is better for the horse compared to hard pavement.

I expect the restrictions to really apply to freeways and expressways, since current restrictions on horses and bicycles are similar. So you may have to take a backroad not the interstate, (except where there is no feasible alternative route, for example I-80 in Wy west of Rawlins)

 

[Midpack]

But changes that are coming will help safety before the SDC arrives. Forward collision avoidance with automatic braking will become standard on 2022 vehicles. This will drastically reduce the chance of a car causing a rear end collision by slamming on the brakes when an obstacle ahead appears to be likely to be hit. Pedestrian avoidance is being worked on now. But it is a problem as the collision by the Uber car indicates (the uber car saw the pedestrian, but decided it was a fake return and ignored it).

Indeed. I assume things will change but some/many pre-collision warning systems have to turned on, they're off by default as many drivers still think they're better than CMBS system ***. And watch all the ways the Honda CMBS system can fail (video link below), it's not very reassuring, they can be blinded by dirt, rain, car off level due to load, etc. And if a driver does something stupid CMBS won't save them.

But driver assistance features aren't likely to match the auto accident reductions a full level 5 SDC will.

And the Arizona Uber car wasn't even close to a level 5 SDC, so it's not a representative example.

*** I just bought a new car with all sorts of driver assistance features. When the dealer handed the car over to me and reviewed all it's features, he told me a majority of owners come back to him after about two weeks with their new car and ask 'how can I turn off all these stupid safety systems?' They never even gave the driver assist features a chance to work, they were irritated that the car constantly flashed and/or beeped warnings before acting, some needed and some not.

https://youtu.be/U2lnQlWjz9I

 

[meierlde]

Indeed. I assume things will change but some/many pre-collision warning systems have to turned on, they're off by default as many drivers still think they're better than CMBS system ***. And watch all the ways the Honda CMBS system can fail (video link below), it's not very reassuring, they can be blinded by dirt, rain, car off level due to load, etc. And if a driver does something stupid CMBS won't save them.

But driver assistance features aren't likely to match the auto accident reductions a full level 5 SDC will.

And the Arizona Uber car wasn't even close to a level 5 SDC, so it's not a representative example.

*** I just bought a new car with all sorts of driver assistance features. When the dealer handed the car over to me and reviewed all it's features, he told me a majority of owners come back to him after about two weeks with their new car and ask 'how can I turn off all these stupid safety systems?' They never even gave the driver assist features a chance to work, they were irritated that the car constantly flashed and/or beeped warnings before acting, some needed and some not.

https://youtu.be/U2lnQlWjz9I

I recall talking to someone who did not even want hill start assist, i.e. when you stop going up on a hill, the car will hold the brake until you step on the gas. (I guess he really wants to drive a model T).
It was after a couple of close calls merging with vehicles in the blind spot that I got a number of the features, starting with blind spot detection, and of course the backup camera. There are some alerts you just need to ignore however such as the rear cross traffic alert seeing a car not in your lane in a parking lot but one lane over and warning you.

 

[Music Lover]

It was after a couple of close calls merging with vehicles in the blind spot that I got a number of the features, starting with blind spot detectiong a car not in your lane in a parking lot but one lane over and warning you...

With correctly adjusted mirrors, the blind spot is eliminated.

 

[Midpack]

With correctly adjusted mirrors, the blind spot is eliminated.

While true, blind spot detection is certainly a helpful safety feature IME.

 

[6miths]

I am looking forward to automatic braking in reverse being a standard feature as it seems that reversing is a challenge for many even with back up cameras.

 

[meierlde]

With correctly adjusted mirrors, the blind spot is eliminated.

As I pointed out it was close calls not accidents, but as I get older I figured that a little help could not hurt. It definitely helps on freeways as you know to begin monitoring to change lanes when the monitor says clear. A lot of the tech helps as our senses and reaction times get slower as we age.

 

[meierlde]

I am looking forward to automatic braking in reverse being a standard feature as it seems that reversing is a challenge for many even with back up cameras.

While not there total the side and front parking detectors could provide low speed protection if combined with auto braking, but the issue is how to handle getting into close quarters. One idea would be to make this feature speed dependent. I.E. a 1 mph with modern bumpers there should be no damage.

Did a bit of looking if you press the brake after the stop it releases, if you do nothing the parking brake applies.

 

[6miths]

Yes I see that the new Subarus have it but don't now the details. I've had three parked cars backed into by others who then left the scene and left no note. It's hard to blame them with the current state of the insurance industry.

 

[Midpack]

I am looking forward to automatic braking in reverse being a standard feature as it seems that reversing is a challenge for many even with back up cameras.

I just bought a new car that has reverse automatic braking and rear cross traffic alert. It will stop the car, but the good news is the alarms are enough that IME you’ll brake yourself before the car has to brake for you in reverse more often than not. Forward pre-collision braking is the bigger challenge when a distracted driver is moving at (much) greater speed than in reverse.

 

[Totoro]

Actually in most parts of the country it is perfectly legal to ride a horse on the highway.

Did not know that - thank you. It is illegal here in The Netherlands and Belgium.



On other roads basically a horse is treated like a bike.

 

[Midpack]

Actually in most parts of the country it is perfectly legal to ride a horse on the highway. In areas with significant Amish population this is how they get around for example.
I found a Florida and California documents that say that horses are legal on streets, basically it appears if you can ride a bicycle on a road you can ride a horse there. (now if there is a grassy shoulder it might make more sense to ride there put the law says in general a horse is like a bike in a legal sense) Even the NYC rules provide that you can ride a horse on streets not on expressways or parkways etc. Of course if there is a grassy shoulder riding the horse there is better for the horse compared to hard pavement.

I expect the restrictions to really apply to freeways and expressways, since current restrictions on horses and bicycles are similar. So you may have to take a backroad not the interstate, (except where there is no feasible alternative route, for example I-80 in Wy west of Rawlins)

Sure about that part? From what I've read interstate highways and expressways are where horses are most often prohibited. but it doesn't appear to be a federal law, state by state. Horses (like bicycles and mopeds) are more often allowed on roads other than highways, though rarely seen on any roads because a) most drivers don't know horses are supposed to have right of way and knowledgeable riders know that, b) horses are often spooked by cars traveling at high speed and the horse owner is liable if the horse causes an accident, c) most horse owner forums recommend against riding on roads with a lot of traffic and some suggest riding against the flow which obviously means beside the road and not on it. There's a good reason you very rarely see horses near roads, and when you do it's usually on reduced speed roads where riders are on the road for short distances to get from one trail to another for example.

And the rules near Amish and similar communities are known exceptions. I have driven in Amish and Mennonite communities and they aren't near major highways, they're in rural areas with very low traffic densities compared to cities or interstate highways.

However, there are specific rules and regulations that they must abide, as well. Horseback riders must ride with traffic, as far to the right as possible on the roadway. However, many equestrians believe that riding against traffic is a safer way to use the roadway with a horse. Horses do best when they can see what is coming towards them, rather than guessing what is coming towards them from behind. Although this is not he same in each state in the United States of America, the vast majority follow this rule (Maxwell, 2011). From state to state, some statues and regulations vary. For example, the state of New York has a very set comprehensive list of rules for the use of horses on the road- both being ridden upon and being horse-driven vehicles. The state of Louisiana prohibits the riding of a horse on any asphalt-based road. There are many states that prohibit the driving or riding of horses on the right of way on a limited access highway like an interstate highway. A lot of the regulations are similar. They include only passing the horse-driven vehicle or horseback rider when it is safe to do so and prohibiting the use of any form of noise, such as a horn (University of Vermont, 2003).[12] In order to minimize the number of accidents that occur with horse and road distractions, people who are actively driving should try to be as cautious as possible to try and avoid these situations.

 

[JustCurious]

Did not know that - thank you. It is illegal here in The Netherlands and Belgium.

And you still don't "know" that, you only read a post from a random stranger on the internet who claimed it to be true.

 

[Walt34]

I am looking forward to automatic braking in reverse being a standard feature as it seems that reversing is a challenge for many even with back up cameras.

When I was working we called it "parking by sonar". That is, the person backs up until they hear a crash and then stops.

 

[JustCurious]

When I was working we called it "parking by sonar". That is, the person backs up until they hear a crash and then stops.

"El golpe avisa" is a common Spanish expression in the context of parking a car that roughly translated means "the bump will let you know when you've gone too far."

 

[ERD50]

When I was working we called it "parking by sonar". That is, the person backs up until they hear a crash and then stops.

Or parking by the "braille" method.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Apple just dismissed 200 employees from Project Titan, its own autonomous car project. Cook called it "the mother of all AI projects", justifiably so because of the difficulties compared to whatever else has been done with machine intelligence.

We have not heard much about SDC lately. Even Waymo (Google), the leader in this field, has not been announcing much regarding the status of its project. I still see a lot of Waymo cars driving everyday around town, but still with a driver and sometimes another person in the right seat. Waymo said to have started a pilot program to ferry some volunteer riders to shops and schools, but there has always been an employee in the driver seat, just in case.

 

[Retch The Grate]

we live right near Rails (the Waymo building), it's close enough for my wife to like walking over to use the gym on the weekend, so we get a lot of them driving through our neighborhood. I had an interesting run in with one on Jane Lane several weeks ago: I was driving down the street and it was coming up towards me, the road has cars parked on both sides so it is a narrower squeeze, but two cars can easily pass each other if you both get out of the middle (only the ends of the block have a lane divider line). As we got close, the Waymo jerked to turn in front of me then corrected, presumably when the driver grabbed the wheel. I believe it was trying to turn into a driveway to dodge passing through a narrow area with my car and was making a terrible choice (turning suddenly to cross in front of an oncoming vehicle, into what would have been a very short driveway, not a road). No harm, no foul, but definitely was a moment of "well that was interesting".

Too bad since I REALLY want to get a self-driving car and never have to deal with paying attention to the road again. This was not that.

 

[ls99]

I think a Waymo when becomes available for sale to public will be way mo expensive than what I would pay.

 

[NW-Bound]

The Phoenix newspaper, AZ Republic, recently had an article on Waymo describing how its reporters trailed Waymo cars for 3 days to see how the robot cars drove.

I was going to link it here, but then found a video on the same report that might be more interesting.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here, a reporter rode in a Waymo car, which still had a backup human driver.

The passenger riding in the car was shown what the car sensors saw, such as other cars on the road as well as pedestrians crossing the road.