New Rav4 purchase falls apart .... not sure what to do

[BarbWire]

It is absolutely technologically possible that your digital trail indicates you are contemplating a RAV4 purchase and are concerned about dead batteries. Unless you are taking unusual and extraordinary measures, Facebook, Google, and other lesser-known data aggregators know this and have made it available to their advertisers, customers and partners. I would bet significant money that they even know you are looking at out of state dealers and which ones. The only question is: does a specific given site that you may happen to use have the sophistication to use that information and to what extent. Facebook, Google, Amazon, and the like have staggering levels of sophistication. I don't know about places like Edmunds but imagine they are not unsophisticated.

VPN and incognito browsing mode ... not enough to keep them from tracking me as I research this?

 

[skipro33]

As a new 2020 Ascent owner, this is a concerning revelation.

Hopefully you read my second post with the links to the Ascent owner's forum and the Ascent dead battery club facebook page. Subaru is aware and they are making good to owners by changing out the battery, recompensing those who purchased aftermarket batteries and now a firmware fix that requires a module in the rear hatch to be swapped out.
Several work-arounds on how to trick the computer to think the rear hatch is closed when it's still open is the best short term solution. Because the problem of drain on the battery is cumulative, the worst case scenario is a camping trip where you open the rear hatch on several occasions over several days without starting the car in the interim. After a 3 or 4 day trip, to discover the battery dead as you try to leave is disconcerting.
Another scenario is leaving the hatch open with a pet inside. Many Ascent owners are dog owners and specifically bought the car to haul their pets to events and have it open to provide fresh air and still have shade. Only later to discover they have a dead battery.
I've never had the problem, but I ski a lot so I do leave my rear hatch up somewhat during the day without benefit of restarting the engine as various family access the car through out the ski day. So I researched the best battery I could find and stuck it in there and bought the lithium portable jumper. I called SOA (Subaru Of America) and upon proof of purchase, they sent me a check for the battery.
I suppose some day I'll query my dealer shop about the issue and eventually have them change out the module in the rear hatch with the latest firmware, but for now, I don't think I'll run into a situation where I need to leave the rear hatch open. Besides, there are other, more serious issues with the Ascent, especially the 2019 transmission. But hey, I don't want to scare you too badly. Ha! Read the forums. Owners are the best source to know about a car's weaknesses.

 

[BarbWire]

Skipro33 --

Yes, thanks, I read your post with some concern. And indeed, my rear hatch will be open as I camp, and the reason to get a moon-roof is to leave it open for ventilation. And compound this concern with being in rural/mountainous areas where there isn't always a signal to call AAA or ToyotaCare.

I find it utterly demoralizing to think that as part of "modernization" we have to accept that expensive vehicles are so complicated that the computers/electronics will be problematic from the get-go, and days or weeks at the dealership are the norm. Or that work-arounds are needed such as disabling the e-brake, switching off the fob and/or putting it in a faraday cage when not in use, and going through an elaborate "turn-off" routine to ensure that the push button start doesn't linger in ACC.

I am most concerned with leaving the vehicle parked for several days -- up to 4 weeks -- at an airport. I do this routinely with my 2017 Ford Transit van and have never had issues, but it has AGM batteries.

IF I go through with the purchase, I will buy a portable battery charger as recommended here and immediately switch the battery to the best quality, largest battery the RAV4 can take without voiding the warranty. I doubt Toyota will reimburse me.

Now I need to work up my questions for the (young) e-Sales guy for tomorrow, and maybe swing by the mechanic I used when I lived in Austin to pick his brain about this vs a 2017-2019 Escape AWD.

EDITED TO ADD: I had originally thought I'd buy a Forester but the expensive CVT problems in the newer years at ~70K miles also spooked me away.

 

[Chuckanut]

My 2019 Rav4 Hybrid has had no battery problems. But, it does have the fuel tank issue that leaves one wondering if the tank is full or not.

Toyota sent me a letter advising me they know of the problem and are working on a fix. I assume that sometime in 2021 I will get a notice to bring the car in for the repair. I still get well over 400 miles on a tank and my gas mileage is in the mid 40's in warm weather and falls to the high 30's low 40's in cold weather.

Note: I try to start and drive my RAV4 every other day, mainly to get the engine hot enough to discourage Mickey and his friends from nesting in the car.

 

[skipro33]

Not sure about the Toyota, but Subaru can push out firmware upgrades any time your car is within cell tower range. It's built in and, for a fee, accessible for the owner to utilize as a hot spot through AT&T.

The only reason the Ascent isn't able to fix their problem over the air is because the rear hatch firmware was an afterthought and not incorporated into the main ECU. It is a stand-alone computer that can't be updated remotely. It physically doesn't have a port on it either, so it must be swapped out. How Toyota designed their tailgate hatch system, I couldn't guess, but perhaps they integrated it so it can be reprogrammed like every other door is currently; to go idle after a set time period.
Subaru as a separate tech department on stuff like that at each dealership. Usually to just explain how to use all these new functions on these late model cars. When you buy a new car these days, a person from the tech department will spend at least 30 minutes with you to go over these features and set up your hands free phone. They'll explain how the car will automatically determine you need a tow, the automatic crash and emergency dispatch signalling, all sorts of bells and whistles I never knew new cars have. Ask that person if they know how software and firmware updates are handled. Things like GPS mapping updates, recall updates, etc. If anyone knows about the dead battery issue and potential remote access to change the car's ability to prevent that from happening, it's likely that person.

 

[Sunset]

With all these different cars seeming to have draining batteries, an annoying but possible solution would be a battery cutoff switch.
They cost about $20

Side benefit is they would confuse someone wanting to steal your car, as it wouldn't start.

Annoyances would be resets radio, no video power, doors have to be able to be manually unlocked, hassle to use daily.

 

[JoeWras]

Hopefully you read my second post with the links to the Ascent owner's forum and the Ascent dead battery club facebook page. Subaru is aware and they are making good to owners by changing out the battery, recompensing those who purchased aftermarket batteries and now a firmware fix that requires a module in the rear hatch to be swapped out.

...

This is really perplexing to me. My 2010 Legacy senses when you've left the dome light or trunk light on too long, and turns it off for you. When I'm on a work site, I leave my trunk open all day with no worries.

Seems like they went backwards... or just had a quality review miss on the new much more complex electronics.

 

[RunningBum]

BarbWire, at some point I think you'll have to go with your gut. Research as much as you can, but clearly there are at least some RAVs with this problem. Research might tell you the likelihood of this happening, and whether there is a fix.

Now, suppose you buy one, and have the problem, are you going to be ok with hooking up a portable charger? I have one, and they are easy, at least in my garage. On a stormy night, maybe not so easy. btw, to your question about whether it'll work after 3 weeks, they definitely should. I have a calendar reminder to bring mine inside every 3 months for a recharge, and it's usually got 4 out of 5 indicator lights on, which tells me it's still got enough charge.

Or, will you be kicking myself to get a car with a problem that you knew existed, and you got it anyway? I might fall into this category, though I did buy a Subaru with a known oil leak issue. Luckily mine does not leak. That was 6 years ago so I don't remember how likely it was to leak.

 

[skipro33]

With all these different cars seeming to have draining batteries, an annoying but possible solution would be a battery cutoff switch.
They cost about $20

Side benefit is they would confuse someone wanting to steal your car, as it wouldn't start.

Annoyances would be resets radio, no video power, doors have to be able to be manually unlocked, hassle to use daily.

It would be more than just annoyance. Car computers these days 'learn' a driver's habits and can adjust the vehicle's performance to match. With the Subaru, the MPG improves as the car learns how the operator accelerates, brakes, etc and modifies the fuel curve to compensate. It can be somewhat pre programmed by the driver where the driver/owner can set the style of throttle curve they prefer for example, or shift aggressiveness for city driving, mountain driving, etc. Computer control opens a whole new world on customization of a car to it's owner and sometimes a second owner. A button or specialized key fob will activate certain features of the car for one driver that is set different for another. The Subaru, like many new manufacturer's cars, uses a main screen 'infotainment' system that is tied to a cell phone that you tether. I can use that phone remotely and track my car, set alarm limits to send me texts or e-mails if the car exceeds a high speed limit, a range limit, it will track the car for me and show me on a map where it is, I can start it remotely, honk the horn, lock the doors, etc. all remotely. Work great when my wife has left some place headed home and I want to see where she is if she's late. Also to tell if your kid has been speeding or drove someplace else when they said they were going to a friends to study. Very stealthy and very techy. Disconnecting the battery for any length of time wipes much of that out. There's short term memory storage I presume, but probably not weeks worth if you decide to leave the battery disconnected that long.

 

[JoeWras]

Very stealthy and very techy.

That's cool and all, but they may have put too many resources into that versus remembering the basics.

I don't think it is a coincidence that Subaru and Toyota are getting commingled in this discussion. The two automakers have had a relationship since 2005, sharing some development and production. For a while, the Subaru plant in Indiana was actually building Camrys.

The relationship has grown tighter and they will be co-developing more whole cars, especially hybrids and EVs. They already have differently branded cars that are essentially the same (BRZ and 86).

They've kept other joint development of subsystems close to the vest, but one has to wonder about this issue...

 

[skipro33]

That's cool and all, but they may have put too many resources into that versus remembering the basics.

Where this is all leading to, of course, is the self driving car. Subaru has something called 'eyesite'. I'm sure Toyota has it's own version. Lane assist, dynamic cruise control and braking, etc.,, my Ascent darn near drives itself now as it is. Even tow package can automatically steer out of a fishtail. Parallel parking is hands free. Auto reverse braking. Front collision braking is a wonder! During our test drive, the salesman stands in the parking lot and asks you to accelerate towards him in an effort to run him down. The car brakes itself and stops, preventing that. My salesman asked if he could use a cardboard cutout for the demonstration. I reluctantly agreed, only after he promised to spill water on his lap to also demonstrate his lack of confidence in the car's feature. (Just kidding on that last, we used a cardboard cut out exclusively)

I do not think it possible to buy a new car today that is simply transportation between two points. Those days are gone

 

[BarbWire]

BarbWire, at some point I think you'll have to go with your gut. Research as much as you can, but clearly there are at least some RAVs with this problem. Research might tell you the likelihood of this happening, and whether there is a fix.

Right now my gut is churning -- so not ready to go with it yet. I owned a lemon once and it was a horrible experience. I have also owned cars that had "known" problems and never had (those) issues.

Research thus far -- forums, reviews, TSBs (or lack thereof) tells me there is not a fix. There are work-arounds.

What I cannot figure out is how to figure the likelihood of this happening. That is what is driving me nuts.

Meanwhile 4 potential Ford Escapes I found online last night were apparently sold during the day -- their listings no longer appear. Sigh.

 

[JoeWras]

I do not think it possible to buy a new car today that is simply transportation between two points. Those days are gone

For sure! 2000 era cars are looking downright primitive.

Still, Eyesight and Lane or Parking Assist aren't very useful if the car won't start.

 

[frank2009]

I would trust Toyota to come up with a solution. That said, I'd also invest in jump box.

 

[Chuckanut]

As I read through this thread I am amazed at all the razzle-dazzle stuff my 2019 RAV4 LE Hybrid does NOT have.

No parallel parking, no remote start, no snooze button, the app shows nothing but total mileage and gas tank level. It does have a lot of safety stuff like blind spot detection and adaptive cruise control. Maybe, I should have bought the upgraded model.

 

[JoeWras]

When I worry about a problem with a vehicle, I like to go right to the NHTSA government site.

There you can find about recalls, but there is also a place for customers to complain about what they consider safety complaints.

I will have to say, after perusing the site for RAV4, I think the OP has a very valid concern!

The sheer volume of complaints for the 2020 RAV4 are about 6x of the Honda CR-V and Mazda CX-5, and 3 or 4x of the Ford Escape and Chevy Equinox.

This is highly unusual for a Toyota product.

It takes some effort to submit to the NHTSA, so to me, this is more meaningful that random forum comments.

The RAV4 has a lot of complaints about the dead battery issue. Here's the direct link to the NHTSA complaints for the RAV4:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2020/TOYOTA/RAV4/SUV/FWD#complaints

PS: I know this is a popular vehicle so you can expect more input. However, to have that great a difference in sheer numbers is unusual in my experience. Even comparing the RAV4 with other Toyota products shows a huge difference. Going over 100 complaints is also a red flag (for the current year model -- complaints increase with age).

 

[pacergal]

We have a 2016 camry hybrid, no battery problems at all. 2015 avalon also no problems.
Now that we are retired, one of them will often sit for a week without running. Always starts with no problem.
Brother has a 2017 Rav4 hybrid, no problems reported

OP--Hope you can find a car you like and trust.

 

[NW-Bound]

With all these different cars seeming to have draining batteries, an annoying but possible solution would be a battery cutoff switch.
They cost about $20

Side benefit is they would confuse someone wanting to steal your car, as it wouldn't start.

Annoyances would be resets radio, no video power, doors have to be able to be manually unlocked, hassle to use daily.

+1. It's a hassle for daily use, but for leaving the car parked for a long period, that's good for peace of mind.

I do have a battery cut-off switch in the toad that I tow with my motorhome. The towed car must have the steering wheel unlocked for flat-towing. Hence the ignition must be on, and that drains the battery during the tow.

 

[stephenson]

This is a weird situation - LOTS online about it.

The easiest to believe scenario, given the wide variety of circumstances, is a bad batch of batteries.

But ....

 

[tb001]

Honestly I think every new car will have something like this. And if it effects enough cars, Toyota will figure out the fix fast. I wouldn’t let this change my decision.

 

[JoeWras]

Honestly I think every new car will have something like this. And if it effects enough cars, Toyota will figure out the fix fast. I wouldn’t let this change my decision.

The problem here is one of being stranded. I think that ramps up the problem severity.

Of course, it isn't every car either. I'm betting it is a bad sensor somewhere. Almost 200k RAV4s were sold. There is a good chance you won't get a lemon.

I was looking at the NHTSA site and noticed the 2020 Subaru Forrester has over 100 complaints too. Digging deep, the problem seems to be windshields that spontaneously crack, or can't manage the smallest rock hit. People are not happy at all. But at least the car starts. Still, it would be off my list until they fix it.

 

[Chuckanut]

FWIW, it seems to me that Toyota is handling the fuel tank issue with the RAV4 better than Honda handled the diluted oil issues in it's CR-V.

 

[skipro33]

I was looking at the NHTSA site and noticed the 2020 Subaru Forrester has over 100 complaints too. Digging deep, the problem seems to be windshields that spontaneously crack, or can't manage the smallest rock hit. People are not happy at all. But at least the car starts. Still, it would be off my list until they fix it.

And with their eyesight system, you can't use aftermarket windshields AND the eyesight system needs to be recalibrated. Very costly to require a dealership to replace the windshield. However, they do cover this under the 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty. Extended factory warranty, when problems like this are known, are worth investing in. Either that or do what I do and trade in every 3 three years.

 

[ivinsfan]

Skipro33 --

Yes, thanks, I read your post with some concern. And indeed, my rear hatch will be open as I camp, and the reason to get a moon-roof is to leave it open for ventilation. And compound this concern with being in rural/mountainous areas where there isn't always a signal to call AAA or ToyotaCare.

I find it utterly demoralizing to think that as part of "modernization" we have to accept that expensive vehicles are so complicated that the computers/electronics will be problematic from the get-go, and days or weeks at the dealership are the norm. Or that work-arounds are needed such as disabling the e-brake, switching off the fob and/or putting it in a faraday cage when not in use, and going through an elaborate "turn-off" routine to ensure that the push button start doesn't linger in ACC.

I am most concerned with leaving the vehicle parked for several days -- up to 4 weeks -- at an airport. I do this routinely with my 2017 Ford Transit van and have never had issues, but it has AGM batteries.

IF I go through with the purchase, I will buy a portable battery charger as recommended here and immediately switch the battery to the best quality, largest battery the RAV4 can take without voiding the warranty. I doubt Toyota will reimburse me.

Now I need to work up my questions for the (young) e-Sales guy for tomorrow, and maybe swing by the mechanic I used when I lived in Austin to pick his brain about this vs a 2017-2019 Escape AWD.

EDITED TO ADD: I had originally thought I'd buy a Forester but the expensive CVT problems in the newer years at ~70K miles also spooked me away.

I don't think weeks or even days at the dealership are the norm for new vehicles. Now why don't you think about searching for a somewhat older in great condition used vehicle? Or you could keep looking for a perfect new car, but pretty sure they all have some issues...you just have to pick the least obnoxious defect.

 

[JoeWras]

And with their eyesight system, you can't use aftermarket windshields AND the eyesight system needs to be recalibrated. Very costly to require a dealership to replace the windshield. However, they do cover this under the 3 year, 36,000 mile warranty. Extended factory warranty, when problems like this are known, are worth investing in. Either that or do what I do and trade in every 3 three years.

Yes, or lease.

If we want to start blowing dough, we may go that way. One downside in my state is the value of vehicles is taxed yearly at the real property rate. You really start saving money in tax as the car gets older.