Waiting on Tesla Battery Day News Today

[MRG]

I beg to differ. Let me explain the way many of us look at this.

I just got back from a trip, so I'll use those specifics. From Cincinnati, OH to Fort Collins, CO.

In each direction, I made four stops for gas. It was nice that I could stop just about anywhere for that, but essentially I spent under 30 minutes total at those gas stations.

With the routing on the Tesla website, I would have made nine charging stops for a total of 285 minutes (4.75 hours). Most of those stops were 30 minutes or less, but one was 40 minutes and one was 55 minutes. So on the full round trip I would have spent 9.5 hours waiting at chargers instead of the less than one hour I spent at gas stations.

Any Chademo stops?

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I beg to differ. Let me explain the way many of us look at this.

I just got back from a trip, so I'll use those specifics. From Cincinnati, OH to Fort Collins, CO.

In each direction, I made four stops for gas. It was nice that I could stop just about anywhere for that, but essentially I spent under 30 minutes total at those gas stations.

With the routing on the Tesla website, I would have made nine charging stops for a total of 285 minutes (4.75 hours). Most of those stops were 30 minutes or less, but one was 40 minutes and one was 55 minutes. So on the full round trip I would have spent 9.5 hours waiting at chargers instead of the less than one hour I spent at gas stations.

Some people have an ICE and an EV in case they want to take the ICE for multi state trips. Whatever works for people.

I went from LA to San Diego a while back, pulled over to a supercharger a few times, ate, drank, visited the little boys room, off we went. I didn't measure the time, we just left when we were done with our business.

Ford had their study that 70% of drivers don't drive more than 40 miles a day.

And I predict you wouldn't be "waiting" while charging. You would be eating, drinking, watching Netflix or YouTube on you 17 inch monitor, checking your phone. I walk my dogs and myself when there. Waiting sounds like something one would do at a Dr.'s office. I'd say 3/4's of the cars at the chargers I've been at in 2.5 years were empty, meaning the occupants were off somewhere doing something.

But Braumeister you sound happy with your situation, no need to change.

 

[NW-Bound]

I beg to differ. Let me explain the way many of us look at this.

I just got back from a trip, so I'll use those specifics. From Cincinnati, OH to Fort Collins, CO.

In each direction, I made four stops for gas. It was nice that I could stop just about anywhere for that, but essentially I spent under 30 minutes total at those gas stations.

With the routing on the Tesla website, I would have made nine charging stops for a total of 285 minutes (4.75 hours). Most of those stops were 30 minutes or less, but one was 40 minutes and one was 55 minutes. So on the full round trip I would have spent 9.5 hours waiting at chargers instead of the less than one hour I spent at gas stations.

Out of curiosity, I just went to the Tesla Website and did the same routing from Cincinnati to Fort Collins for a long-range Model 3. I got 10 charging stops, not 9. The software did not let me scroll down the list of the stops, in order to add up the total charging time.

The above trip is 1,245 miles, according to Google Map. That's about 4x the 310-mile range of the car. However, you do not want to get stranded, and always want to keep some reserve, hence the trip is broken into 11 legs with 10 stops. It looks to me that each leg seems quite a bit shorter than the 310-mile range of the car. As Koolau always says, YMMV.

PS. OK, the 9-stop routing info is for the long-range Model S, with a range of 373 miles.

PPS. Eventually, when there are more charging stations along the way, an EV owner may feel more comfortable pushing closer to the range of the car. Right now, he needs to stop when there's a convenient supercharger.

 

[CaptTom]

And I predict you wouldn't be "waiting" while charging.

Last weekend I made two, 600-mile drives. Both ways I stopped once, for about 15 minutes, at around the 300-mile mark, for gas and a sandwich.

I predict I would be waiting very impatiently if it were any longer than that. And I certainly wouldn't want to have to make two stops, instead of the one.

So, all I need is an EV which can go 350 miles on a charge, even if I'm running the heat or air conditioner, can be recharged at any exit in about 15 minutes, and costs about the same as an ICE vehicle.

 

[braumeister]

And I predict you wouldn't be "waiting" while charging.

Again, I disagree. I would be wasting those ten hours. My point is simply that your very frequent posts on this topic are misleading.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Again, I disagree. I would be wasting those ten hours. My point is simply that your very frequent posts on this topic are misleading.

I don't see how writing my experiences and observations are misleading. I think I've posted some helpful information for those that know little about EV's. At one point I was thanked by a long term member for EV information.

Most Tesla buyers don't buy their vehicles for taking the 2 600 mile drives Tom takes.

Now if I was driving a LEAF or a BOLT, that would require patience while charging. Those vehicles are for local driving.

 

[MRG]

Out of curiosity, I just went to the Tesla Website and did the same routing from Cincinnati to Fort Collins for a long-range Model 3. I got 10 charging stops, not 9. The software did not let me scroll down the list of the stops, in order to add up the total charging time.

The above trip is 1,245 miles, according to Google Map. That's about 4x the 310-mile range of the car. However, you do not want to get stranded, and always want to keep some reserve, hence the trip is broken into 11 legs with 10 stops. It looks to me that each leg seems quite a bit shorter than the 310-mile range of the car. As Koolau always says, YMMV.

PS. OK, the 9-stop routing info is for the long-range Model S, with a range of 373 miles.

PPS. Eventually, when there are more charging stations along the way, an EV owner may feel more comfortable pushing closer to the range of the car. Right now, he needs to stop when there's a convenient supercharger.

Ok, I used A Better Route Planner app for the same trip, same M3 long-range with 18" aero wheels. There's a 5 mile difference 1245 vs 1240. I get 8 charging stops for 3hrs 1 minutes in charging and 18:45 total travel time.

That application is better than Teslas, good name. It also doesn't use to destination charging for the trip , instead driving straight through. If you stay overnight, you eliminate one charging stop during travel. Nor does it taking advantage of CHAdeMO charging stations. There's a couple thousand of them out there.

I was given some advice from a guy traveling in a Roadster, 240 mile range with no supercharging. He said he always uses multiple tools for planning his trips with multiple backups. I had witnessed two ladies on their first road trip proving his point.

 

[Koolau]

I was just thinking: I've run out of gas a few times. It was a pain, but I don't recall ever being stranded longer than an hour. Back in the day, someone would stop and help. Now, I'd call the number on the back of my insurance card.

What happens if you run "dry" in a Tesla (or other EV?) Does AAA bring you a gallon of electricity? Do you walk to the nearest charging station and bring back some "juice?" I admit to being totally ignorant on this subject, so if anyone knows, I'd be curious.

When I was 16, I had my dad's car on a trip to "the big city." On the way back, I noticed the gas gage was on empty. I knew to slow down and pray I would make it to the one gas station between me and home (17 miles out.) Mile after mile I went 35 MPH. Suddenly, the engine coughed, caught, coughed again, etc. I recalled a HS buddy telling me you could get a couple more miles out of an "empty" tank if you rocked the car side to side to pick up the last little bit of gas into the pick up. Sure enough, it worked! When the car finally did die, I coasted into the gas station I'd been praying for. If you've seen BUES BROTHERS, you might guess what happened next. THEY were out of gas. Called my dad who dutifully brought out a gallon of gas which was all I needed to get to a "real" gas station (with real gas.)

The reason I bring up this 50+ year old story is that I've just never worried about running out of gas - It drives DW bonkers if we get below 1/4 tank. Now, if I had just seen a sign that said "Last Chance Gas for 86 miles" and it was the middle of the desert, I'd probably fill up even if at 1/2 tank. But, what's it like if you DO run out of battery in a EV? Alternately, do you spend a lot of time "trip planning" which us "gas guzzlers" don't have to do?

As I've said before, I'm fascinated by EVs and my son has one which he loves. So I'm not anti-EV in the least. It just seems to me that the whole dynamic of trip "planning" would be changed for ever (well, for years to come) if you depend on long trips in an EV. Just sayin' so YMMV.

 

[LRDave]

I don't want to hijack the OP's original thought, but this seems to have turned into an EV thread, so.......

I wonder what it will take for EVs to be viable for rural USA? I opine that if I bought a Tesla and installed a home charger system, those would be the first of each in the rural county in which I live.

Another question: does anybody park (and charge) their exclusively Tesla outdoors?

 

[folivier]

For someone trying to understand this, if on a road trip have you had to wait until a charger is open or are there not enough out there to be a problem, yet?
For local driving I don't see a problem but we take long trips a few times a year and wondering how that would work out. Getting across Texas on I-10 are there enough chargers past San Antonio? Then throughout Colorado and Utah?

 

[Koolau]

For someone trying to understand this, if on a road trip have you had to wait until a charger is open or are there not enough out there to be a problem, yet?
For local driving I don't see a problem but we take long trips a few times a year and wondering how that would work out. Getting across Texas on I-10 are there enough chargers past San Antonio? Then throughout Colorado and Utah?

ca. 1994 I drove through TX on the way to Cali. Past San Antonio, I recall hour long periods when my radio wouldn't pick up a single station - not even AM. I saw as many dust devils as other cars. I'm sure there must have been a few towns to buy gas but I only stopped once before I got to El Paso. I too wonder if there are enough places to stop for electrons in that desolate stretch. THAT would be scary but YMMV.

 

[CaptTom]

Most Tesla buyers don't buy their vehicles for taking the 2 600 mile drives Tom takes.

Agreed. I don't think the Tesla is marketed at the masses. Folks wealthy enough to buy a flashy second car, almost as a fashion statement as much as for practical use, are probably the target audience.

People who may need to take their daily driver on occasional long trips are out of luck, for now. Obviously Elon talks about changing that, and I hope he's right some day.

But not today.

 

[gerntz]

I beg to differ. Let me explain the way many of us look at this.

I just got back from a trip, so I'll use those specifics. From Cincinnati, OH to Fort Collins, CO.

In each direction, I made four stops for gas. It was nice that I could stop just about anywhere for that, but essentially I spent under 30 minutes total at those gas stations.

With the routing on the Tesla website, I would have made nine charging stops for a total of 285 minutes (4.75 hours). Most of those stops were 30 minutes or less, but one was 40 minutes and one was 55 minutes. So on the full round trip I would have spent 9.5 hours waiting at chargers instead of the less than one hour I spent at gas stations.

I was just thinking: I've run out of gas a few times. It was a pain, but I don't recall ever being stranded longer than an hour. Back in the day, someone would stop and help. Now, I'd call the number on the back of my insurance card.

What happens if you run "dry" in a Tesla (or other EV?) Does AAA bring you a gallon of electricity? Do you walk to the nearest charging station and bring back some "juice?" I admit to being totally ignorant on this subject, so if anyone knows, I'd be curious.

Just pack along a portable generator with 5-10 gallons of gasoline.

 

[gerntz]

Another thing is that today most folks prefer trucks or SUV's such that compact/sedan/sports car discussions are non-starters.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I was just thinking: I've run out of gas a few times. It was a pain, but I don't recall ever being stranded longer than an hour. Back in the day, someone would stop and help. Now, I'd call the number on the back of my insurance card.

What happens if you run "dry" in a Tesla (or other EV?) Does AAA bring you a gallon of electricity? Do you walk to the nearest charging station and bring back some "juice?" I admit to being totally ignorant on this subject, so if anyone knows, I'd be curious.

When I was 16, I had my dad's car on a trip to "the big city." On the way back, I noticed the gas gage was on empty. I knew to slow down and pray I would make it to the one gas station between me and home (17 miles out.) Mile after mile I went 35 MPH. Suddenly, the engine coughed, caught, coughed again, etc. I recalled a HS buddy telling me you could get a couple more miles out of an "empty" tank if you rocked the car side to side to pick up the last little bit of gas into the pick up. Sure enough, it worked! When the car finally did die, I coasted into the gas station I'd been praying for. If you've seen BUES BROTHERS, you might guess what happened next. THEY were out of gas. Called my dad who dutifully brought out a gallon of gas which was all I needed to get to a "real" gas station (with real gas.)

The reason I bring up this 50+ year old story is that I've just never worried about running out of gas - It drives DW bonkers if we get below 1/4 tank. Now, if I had just seen a sign that said "Last Chance Gas for 86 miles" and it was the middle of the desert, I'd probably fill up even if at 1/2 tank. But, what's it like if you DO run out of battery in a EV? Alternately, do you spend a lot of time "trip planning" which us "gas guzzlers" don't have to do?

As I've said before, I'm fascinated by EVs and my son has one which he loves. So I'm not anti-EV in the least. It just seems to me that the whole dynamic of trip "planning" would be changed for ever (well, for years to come) if you depend on long trips in an EV. Just sayin' so YMMV.

Tesla gives free roadside assistance for 4 years/50,000 miles. If driving the other EV's your out of luck to my knowledge.

When you program your navigation, the car would notify you if you picked a destination beyond the range of your vehicle (current top range is 398 miles in the model S). It locates the nearest supercharger to you.

Several have mentioned long trips like Tom's 600 mile drive. If one doesn't want to charge on the way, then keep the ICE car, or have one of each. I drive 2 Tesla's but don't take 600 mile trips.

Of all the vehicles in America moving at any given moment, how many passenger vehicles are on a 600 mile voyage. 1%? 2%?

The vast majority of people would have their needs met with a 398 mile range. For those that 398 is not enough, keep an ICE car around.

85% of Tesla owners never need to charge on the road, as we charge at home. I take one of my Tesla's to the superchargers only because when I bought it Tesla had a promotion giving free charging for the life of the vehicle. My other Tesla I charge at home.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't yet have an EV, but suspect that I will live long enough to have one.

What I want to see is more supercharging stations, not so much a longer range than, say, 350 miles. I can use a break every 300 miles or less to walk around, visit a men's room, etc...

In playing with the EV route planners, I see that the recommended legs are typically a lot shorter than the range of the cars. Each leg is usually between 100 to 200 miles, with the majority at 150 miles or less. Apparently, that's because of the spacing between the superchargers; you have to stop more often, because you are taking a big risk if you try to wait till the next station.

In short, EVs need more supercharging stations to become mainstream. And instead of more expensive EVs with a super-long range of 500-600 miles, the current EVs with a 300-mi range will be quite OK if they are less expensive, and when there are more stations. The infrastructure will take some years to build up.

 

[CaptTom]

Of all the vehicles in America moving at any given moment, how many passenger vehicles are on a 600 mile voyage. 1%? 2%?

The question is, how many people could justify buying a vehicle which could NEVER go that far?

The vast majority of people would have their needs met with a 398 mile range. For those that 398 is not enough, keep an ICE car around.

Again, buying a 2nd (or 3rd) vehicle just to prove their environmentally conscious credentials is not practical for many people.

Casually tossing out that 398 mile figure seems misleading. How much more do I have to pay to get that range? Can I actually GO 398 miles before recharging? What if I'm running the heat or air conditioning? What if there are traffic jams? What if there are no charging stations near mile 398?

In short, what's the maximum practical range of a modestly priced EV?

I'm sorry if this is coming across as harsh. I would love to be convinced that my next vehicle will be an EV. It just hasn't happened yet.

 

[Koolau]

Just pack along a portable generator with 5-10 gallons of gasoline.

I assume you're being a little bit facetious, but I'll still play along.

I think that idea came up in an EV thread a year or two back. IIRC one of our EV experts (of which, I am not one) suggested it would take (also, IIRC) an hour or two to charge for 10 more miles using most consumer generators. One of the reasons I would like to own an EV is so that my car would never smell of gasoline.

My son's Tesla smells a bit like a new-born baby now, but not gasoline!

Oh, and they do make an EV with a built in generator. I think they call it a Prius but YMMV.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ You get 6 miles for each hour of charge using a portable 2kW Honda generator.

As this thread is about EV batteries, I have not seen anyone even mention an electric motorhome. Surely, if they can build an electric semi-trailer tractor, they can build an electric motorhome. The cost of the battery would be huge though, plus its weight would really cut into your cargo carrying capacity.

But speaking of RV, it occurred to me to see if I can drive an EV to remote places that I have visited with my motorhome.

I tried "Phoenix, AZ -> Fairbanks, AK". Both Tesla and ABRP (A Better Route Planner) replied "Does not compute".

Next I tried another trip that I made: "Phoenix, AZ -> Cape North, Canada". ABRP did not know Cape North. Tesla knew about Cape North, but said "No can do".

With Cape North being a little place, I substituted Baddeck, a larger town nearby. Both ABRP and Tesla could handle this. Apparently, the last leg of Baddeck to Cape North is the problematic one.

I think the Baddeck-Cape North problem is a minor one, which can be solved in a few years. The Alcan Highway is another thing though. There are many towns in Alaska and the Yukon that have to generate their own electricity using diesel generators. They will not be able to let travelers plug their EVs into their local grid and suck out 100kW a piece. That is gonna blow their fuses.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

The question is, how many people could justify buying a vehicle which could NEVER go that far?



Again, buying a 2nd (or 3rd) vehicle just to prove their environmentally conscious credentials is not practical for many people.

Casually tossing out that 398 mile figure seems misleading. How much more do I have to pay to get that range? Can I actually GO 398 miles before recharging? What if I'm running the heat or air conditioning? What if there are traffic jams? What if there are no charging stations near mile 398?

In short, what's the maximum practical range of a modestly priced EV?

I'm sorry if this is coming across as harsh. I would love to be convinced that my next vehicle will be an EV. It just hasn't happened yet.

Not harsh at all. I realize people have questions. Keep them coming.

Before I answer your questions, let me say you aren't being harsh at all, but I notice every post you write on an EV thread is rather "negative" on EV's. You have plenty of company on this forum in that regard. 2 Examples: you've mentioned the environmental conscious credentials. From my experience, I would say 90% of Tesla owners couldn't care less about those credentials. We buy and drive them because they are better vehicles. Yes they don't stink. But the emissions part is neither here nor there. The same 90% don't buy them to say "look at my glamorous car" either. I would drive a go kart down the street if it could do what my cars do. My point is: I think several here can't possibly accept that Tesla's are better vehicles than ICE's, and attribute their popularity to ego or some other equally negative attribute of the owner.

I'm sure plenty of rotten tomatoes will be sent my way for this opinion.

I didn't check the website for prices of the 398 range Model S. My Model 3 goes 325 miles and it cost me $38,450 after rebates/credits.

Can you actually go 325? You could if you started at 100% state of charge and drove it to 0%. Only a crazy person would try that. Just like riding from full to empty in an ICE car. It depends on your needs. If you don't need 325, charge to 80% and recharge by 20%. If you need more range then fill to 100%. It's all up to you.

AC takes very little energy. Seat heaters the same. Using the heater consumes much more. If I lived in ice country I might not have a Tesla. I don't know.

Traffic jams have no effect. Moving slow in EV's actually increases range.

What if there are no charging stations? Please consult the Supercharger map. As of March 2020 Tesla had 993 charging stations in North America. In 2019 they had 24,000 destination charging stations worldwide. Destination chargers are located at hotels, restaurants, shopping districts and such. The point of these is to drive to your destination, plug in and charge while you eat/shop. That's how I do it. No "waiting" involved.

For anyone out in the wilderness, perhaps a Tesla isn't for you. Simple. They certainly sell better in city locations.

I hope someone found this helpful.

Forum member Eroscott has plenty of helpful pictures and graphs, hopefully he will contribute. He's smarter than me.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I assume you're being a little bit facetious, but I'll still play along.

I think that idea came up in an EV thread a year or two back. IIRC one of our EV experts (of which, I am not one) suggested it would take (also, IIRC) an hour or two to charge for 10 more miles using most consumer generators. One of the reasons I would like to own an EV is so that my car would never smell of gasoline.

My son's Tesla smells a bit like a new-born baby now, but not gasoline!

Oh, and they do make an EV with a built in generator. I think they call it a Prius but YMMV.

I detest the smell of gasoline. It has nothing to do with EV's. Can't stand smelling it.

When the day came that I could stay out of gas stations forever I jumped at it.

 

[stephenson]

I have always wanted a hybrid vehicle.

I find EVs to be specialty vehicles - this may change over time, but range will continue to be the issue for me - not possible range with charging considerations, but how far can I go in 12/24 hours of hard driving. 800/1600 ish miles with 5-10 minute breaks every 300 ish miles.

I insist on my vehicles serving me - not the other way around.

Did I mention that hybrids are a great idea? ��

I like the smell of gasoline, and love the smell of JP, er, diesel.

 

[folivier]

Even if there are superchargers in all of the places they are needed my question is this:
How many EV owners have had to wait for a vacant charger and for how long? If someone is ahead of you are they notified when their charge is done? And hopefully they will quickly come move their EV for the next person.

 

[Time2]

Just pack along a portable generator with 5-10 gallons of gasoline.

Many repair trucks have a welder which also produces 120VAC and 220VAC, it's not much more to include a charging station. They could give you enough charge to get to the next charging station. Apparently there's not much to a charging station.

Mobile chargers are probably a thing to come, but with a short life. Charging stations will be as plentiful as gas stations. Now if we could just get more nuclear power plants to power the stations that charge the cars.

 

[CaptTom]

Not harsh at all. I realize people have questions. Keep them coming.

Before I answer your questions, let me say you aren't being harsh at all, but I notice every post you write on an EV thread is rather "negative" on EV's. You have plenty of company on this forum in that regard. 2 Examples: you've mentioned the environmental conscious credentials. From my experience, I would say 90% of Tesla owners couldn't care less about those credentials. We buy and drive them because they are better vehicles. Yes they don't stink. But the emissions part is neither here nor there. The same 90% don't buy them to say "look at my glamorous car" either. I would drive a go kart down the street if it could do what my cars do. My point is: I think several here can't possibly accept that Tesla's are better vehicles than ICE's, and attribute their popularity to ego or some other equally negative attribute of the owner.

First, thank you for taking the time to answer. It's good to hear from real experience, rather than hype.

Yes, I've been questioning all the claims as to why I should buy an EV. I really would love to be convinced. That will happen when these questions are resolved. Instead I usually get run-arounds, half-answers and overly rosy estimates.

I'm a practical guy. Fad and fashion won't sway me, and yes, I do think that's a factor for many EV buyers. Maybe I don't know as many Tesla owners as you, but I'd put that 90/10 split exactly opposite to where you put it.

I want to do right for the environment, but reality requires me to stick to a budget. The way EVs will go mainstream is when they can meet the needs of the majority.

Can you actually go 325? You could if you started at 100% state of charge and drove it to 0%. Only a crazy person would try that. Just like riding from full to empty in an ICE car. It depends on your needs. If you don't need 325, charge to 80% and recharge by 20%. If you need more range then fill to 100%. It's all up to you.

My ICE car can easily go 350+ miles. No craziness required. I know I'll be able to find a gas station within 10 miles of that 350-mile limit. And be back on the road in another 5 minutes, although admittedly at that point I'd stop for 15-30 minutes, just for a break.

AC takes very little energy. Seat heaters the same. Using the heater consumes much more. If I lived in ice country I might not have a Tesla. I don't know.

That's interesting. I don't know much about auto air conditioning, but a comparable boat air conditioner (12-15,000 BTU) will probably pull about 10 Amps at 120VAC, or 1,200 Watts. So I would have guessed running AC has a real impact on range. It would be interesting to see the specs on the Tesla AC system.

Traffic jams have no effect. Moving slow in EV's actually increases range.

ICE mileage standards are broken into "highway" and "city" values. City implies some stop-and-go traffic, and those numbers are always far worse. But traffic jams, which are pure stop-and-go, often for long periods, running the heat or AC, are even worse. I assume it would be the same for an EV. In my experience, moving slowly is extremely rare on US roads. It's mostly highway or stop-and-go.

What if there are no charging stations? Please consult the Supercharger map. As of March 2020 Tesla had 993 charging stations in North America. In 2019 they had 24,000 destination charging stations worldwide. Destination chargers are located at hotels, restaurants, shopping districts and such. The point of these is to drive to your destination, plug in and charge while you eat/shop. That's how I do it. No "waiting" involved.

Right. I think the current technology is perfect for that kind of driving. If that's all I did, and the economics worked, I'd have an EV today. I do, however, suspect the number of gas stations is significantly higher than charging stations. And they're much more likely to be found wherever I happen to need one.

For anyone out in the wilderness, perhaps a Tesla isn't for you. Simple. They certainly sell better in city locations.

But there's a lot of demand in between those two extremes. Frankly, people living in the city often don't really even need a car. And very few people live in the wilderness.

I hope someone found this helpful.

I do. Thank you.