Given Notice, How to Negotiate

[DINKFIRE]

Hi,

I've seen many good advices given in the forums and think to share my current issue here.

I've given my resignation notice last Friday. Based on my position with the company my standard notice period is two weeks. Since I'm working remotely and my supervisor was in a different country, I called him on Friday morning. I explained what my expectation of main projects to be transitioned, and I would be willing to arrange an end date works for both the company and myself.

My boss told me not to discuss this with HR or anyone else and allow him to talk to his boss first. Then it was silence until today, after I emailed him again about it. He replied that because my job responsibilities is extensive and complicated, it would be my professional courtesy to stay until they hire someone to replace me, and after I train the replacement, then I can communicate my end date.

It doesn't seem reasonable to require an open ended resignation, and he did not offer any additional compensation for me to stay on for longer than two weeks.

What would you do in this situation? We are ready to retire. Our home will be renovated next month and both of us will be busy dealing with it. I'm giving up unvested compensation (vesting in Dec and March) unless I can negotiate a severance with the company, otherwise, I'd be working longer without getting any of those pays. We are ready to buy our insurance from ACA market place once we retire.

 

[sengsational]

I would either say "thanks, but no thanks" and walk, or I'd ask them for a bonus. You will almost certainly find that they'll offer you a $0 bonus (if it's anything like the megas I've worked for).

I did it in the reverse order from you. I asked to work less. I asked for "leave" such that I could take several month long vacations per year, and take a pay cut. I said I'd entertain any offers that allowed for my travel plans. They came back with no offers. "Well, I guess since you have made no attempt to accomodate me, we must part ways" is pretty easy. You could use it, if the bonus is not forthcoming.

 

[REWahoo]

If you are willing to work beyond your two week notice I suggest you do so only on the following terms:

1. You receive additional compensation for the agreed extension
2. Your delayed date of departure is firm, not open ended
3. You get written confirmation of your agreement

Item three is very important based on my personal experience.

After giving notice my boss, the company CFO, asked me to delay my departure date by two months. I countered with an offer to delay for four weeks in return for 6 weeks pay, and got a written confirmation of acceptance.

Good thing I got it in writing since my boss was escorted out of the building during that extra four week period. I would have not been paid for those extra two weeks without that document.

 

[DINKFIRE]

I would either say "thanks, but no thanks" and walk, or I'd ask them for a bonus. You will almost certainly find that they'll offer you a $0 bonus (if it's anything like the megas I've worked for).

I did it in the reverse order from you. I asked to work less. I asked for "leave" such that I could take several month long vacations per year, and take a pay cut. I said I'd entertain any offers that allowed for my travel plans. They came back with no offers. "Well, I guess since you have made no attempt to accomodate me, we must part ways" is pretty easy. You could use it, if the bonus is not forthcoming.

Thank you for the suggestion, your guess is one of the most likely outcome I expect and I will definitely consider just tell them no. I have my vacation days paid out last year since my accrual would have exceeded the max after not able to take anytime off at all since the pandemic began. This workload has been steadily increased over the years and that's one of the main reason I'm getting out.

 

[njhowie]

So, now you go to HR with your resignation letter giving no more than two weeks notice. If you so choose, you can probably give notice today that you are quitting as of tomorrow. Most all employment these days is "at will" - meaning employer may terminate your employment at any time for any reason or no reason at all. Likewise, employee may terminate his/her employment at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

Unless you specifically have a contract in place that stipulates how much notice you need to provide, your employment is most likely at will.

 

[DINKFIRE]

So, now you go to HR with your resignation letter giving no more than two weeks notice. If you so choose, you can probably give notice today that you are quitting as of tomorrow. Most all employment these days is "at will" - meaning employer may terminate your employment at any time for any reason or no reason at all. Likewise, employee may terminate his/her employment at any time for any reason or no reason at all.

Unless you specifically have a contract in place that stipulates how much notice you need to provide, your employment is most likely at will.

My original offer letter from the company did not have any notice requirement, but the employee handbook says two weeks. I am giving them at least two weeks notice, but the response I received from my boss so far is not leading to a negotiation, but more of a one-sided demand. I'm going to talk to HR next as you have suggested.

 

[ponyboy]

I would love to be in a situation like this someday. If my boss demanded that I stay on I would laugh in his face, or demand so much money it would insult him.

When my time comes, I will not be giving a 2 week notice. I will walk in and quit the same day. Nothing personal, but I live in a state that you can be walked from your job for any reason at all, or no reason at all. And, I also plan on burning through all of my sick time. We only get paid $20/day for sick, which is peanuts. I treat sick time as vacation.

 

[Amethyst]

It's not a legal requirement; just a courtesy. As I'm betting your HR office will confirm.

If you were staying in your line of business, and had to maintain professional networks, then you'd probably wish to conciliate the losing firm.

But, since you are retiring, you can do what you like. Without a contract clause, they can't "demand" anything. They don't sound very nice.

My original offer letter from the company did not have any notice requirement, but the employee handbook says two weeks. .

 

[pb4uski]

....He replied that because my job responsibilities is extensive and complicated, it would be my professional courtesy to stay until they hire someone to replace me, and after I train the replacement, then I can communicate my end date. ...

My DD gave her employer 6 weeks notice to allow for a replacement to be found, etc and they didn't even start the search until her last week... so I would not go there. At the end of the day, you dictate what your end date is, not your employer. The professional courtesy is for you to cooperate with them to achieve a smooth transition to the extent that they are reasonable and not just putting you off.... not to stay while they twiddle thier thumbs in chosing a successor.

I would tell him that you were not planning on staying that long, but ask how long a time frame does he envision for them to hire a replacement and for you to train the replacement?

Perhaps you could propose to stay on full-time for the typical two-week period, shift to 50% part-time* after for the earlier of 4 weeks or when a replacement is found and trained. This would send a message that you are serious about getting out but also willing to work with the to achieve a smooth transition. If they say no and are jerks about it, then tell them that their remaining choices are 2 weeks or 2 minutes.

*Where I worked 50% part-time was 50% of pay and bonuses, 50% of vacation accruals and most other benefits and health insurance just like a FTE.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

For once, management has to dance to your tune. Tell them what you demand if they want you to stick around. Consider the way you've been treated in the past, and act accordingly.

When I signed off in 2013 the boss had a $50,000 severance package to dangle in front of me, so I stuck around for six weeks to collect. I don't regret it.

 

[Aerides]

This is where I'd email HR, cc my boss, and their boss: "As we discussed on 3/4, I offered you my two week's notice...in lieu of any offer of significant additional compensation, my last day will be 3/18." and then I'd laugh and laugh and laugh some more.

ETA: if they do consider more money for more time, understand that might come with more unpleasantness if your boss is already this bent out of shape. If he's asked to do a pay-to-stay, he might make life a bit uglier for the duration. And do NOT do some open ended thing like "until we find a replacement" but # of weeks, a date. They will squander 90% of whatever the time is, so don't make it very long at all.

 

[Koolau]

I would be extremely concerned that your boss wants to keep HR out of the discussions. As long as this is a "hand shake" arrangement with your boss, s/he can take advantage of you. I think I'd call HR and at least explore options with them. Perhaps indicating a potential willingness to smooth the way for your replacement but with a time-certain clause.

My Megacorp was so rigid that, even though they were infinitely fair within their set of rules and guidelines, they NEVER allowed an employee to set any terms. It was their way or the highway - even when that meant a devastating loss of continuity or expertise. "No one is irreplaceable" was their philosophy.

It sounds like you could "negotiate" with your boss, but how would you insure that s/he keeps the "bargain." Better to make it "official" as far as possible IMO. Still, you are the one there and you know better whether you can trust the company and the boss. Just don't let anyone lay a guilt trip on you. You w*rked for your pay so you owe nothing more than your paid loyalty and a modicum of professional courtesy - that's it. Anything else should be on YOUR terms. YMMV as always.

 

[CardsFan]

This is where I'd email HR, cc my boss, and their boss: "As we discussed on 3/4, I offered you my two week's notice...in lieu of any offer of significant additional compensation, my last day will be 3/18." and then I'd laugh and laugh and laugh some more.

While I understand the temptation to do this, it really does depend on the circumstances (length of time with the company, position and finally your personal feelings for the future of the people you are leaving behind).

I had no illusions that I could not be replaced, but I had been there long enough to have (professional) friendships and a desire leave with my head held high, knowing I was professional to the end.

I had already picked Sept 1 as my final day. 30 days notice was customary. I offered 3 months notice when a new project (usual duration 1-2 years) was about to be assigned to me so it would go to some one who would be there for the duration.

I was then asked if I would consider PT work through the end of the year to clean-up on going projects (NO pressure, just a request from a boss that I knew well and had originally hired). 3 days per week but full HC benefits. I had already planned a 6-8 week RV trip for Sep-Oct. No problem, you can work remotely as needed, and use accumulated vacation to fill out the 3 days per week.

I agreed to the above. It was easy work and a pleasant experience.

OTOH, if my boss was Sh!thead, and the company had screwed me around, then I would do what Aerides suggested.

 

[MRG]

Your boss is a huge azz. Make sure HR knows about your resignation and your last day of work.

 

[Lewis Clark]

As others have written, the open-ended timing is utterly ridiculous for you.

If you are willing to stay longer, name your price to do so. Additional money above your normal pay, extra time off, working remotely, working part time, whatever you are willing to do. And your firm deadline if you have one. If the company agrees, be sure to get it in writing and signed by someone senior enough to make it stick.

And be sure HR is aware of the deal as well or they are likely to tell you it never existed.

 

[jollystomper]

I recommend never giving notice unless one is ready to walk (or be walked) out the door that day without any additional compensation or consideration that is already in place.

I tend to be blunt and direct. In addition to mentioning/bringing up HR, I would ask my boss "what is in it for me if I stay beyond 2 weeks?" and then make your decision based on your response. You might get something, you might get nothing... but in negotiation the one willing to walk away from the table is usually in the better position, which you are.

I was in a slightly similar situation when I gave my notice. I told my manager in mid-February 2018 that I was retiring the end of April. I did not need anything additional from a financial perspective at that point (in fact not since the end of 2017 when I alerted my then manager than I would be retiring sometime in 2017).

She said lets talk more about this in a few days. The details are on my "Glide Path" thread ( https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/omy-glide-path-plans-81406-2.html#post2020226), but in sum due to a problem project they asked me how much longer I could stay to fix it. I told them "2 months is all I need to fix it". Full salary, working only on that project (a workshop) to complete it, ran it several times, and trained my replacements. I received a severance package with additional pay and vacation reimbursement, and includes medical at employee rates through the end of 2019. Then, I was shocked after I retired when they sent me even more money, as a reward/bonus for completing the workshop.

I was fortunate. If you do choose to stay, give them a specific time for your best effort. If they do not accept that... walk away (pleasantly of course ).

 

[ocean view]

Do you have anything to gain by extending your term date?

In my situation I gave two weeks notice for being in the office, but then offered to come back for two days every 3 weeks until my vacation time was exhausted, about 6-7 weeks. During those in-the-office days they could use me to assist in the transition however they saw fit. This was to my benefit because using my vacation time rather than being paid out allowed me to stay on the medical plan 3 months longer, my options continued to vest and I accrued even more vacation. This arrangement worked for them because it gave them the longer transition period they thought they needed.

If there’s a benefit for you to extend, then do it, otherwise walk away.

 

[HarveyS]

Like others have said, you call the shots. Get everything in writing and involve HR. Of course, after you agree to an extended date and a compensation for these days, that can always be extended again by mutual agreement in writing. I'd add a clause saying the extension agreement can be terminated by either party with 5 (or 10) days notice just in case they become jerks about the whole thing. At this stage you owe them nothing and any xtra $ is not worth even a small amount of hassle.

 

[DINKFIRE]

Do you have anything to gain by extending your term date?

In my situation I gave two weeks notice for being in the office, but then offered to come back for two days every 3 weeks until my vacation time was exhausted, about 6-7 weeks. During those in-the-office days they could use me to assist in the transition however they saw fit. This was to my benefit because using my vacation time rather than being paid out allowed me to stay on the medical plan 3 months longer, my options continued to vest and I accrued even more vacation. This arrangement worked for them because it gave them the longer transition period they thought they needed.

If there’s a benefit for you to extend, then do it, otherwise walk away.

The only benefit for extend is financial one, which we don't need but nice to have. My target is to at least get severance to cover my unvested compensation allocable to the extended period, and having the medical coverage before we need to sign up for ACA. Since we made more than any subsidy threshold, the insurance premium would be a lot higher than current coverage. I also plan to request no more work/request in evenings, weekends and holidays, which has been the norm over past year.

 

[Aerides]

OTOH, if my boss was Sh!thead, and the company had screwed me around, then I would do what Aerides suggested.

I thought the OP's scenario qualified: He made a good faith resignation, and was rebutted, with basically "you can go when I want you to go" and that would be screwy in my book, especially with OP being ready to retire.

He can still walk out with head held high, I would have, but now's the time to get the date formalized since the boss isn't going to give.

 

[mystang52]

Hmmm, Supervisor in another country. I'll give supervisor benefit of the doubt and ascribe his absurd reaction to a different culture. Else, as Claudius would have said, his offense is rank it smells to Heaven.
Whatever additional compensation OP wants should be payable as a regular paycheck....not some lump sum at the end of this supposed open-ended arrangement. BUT, I think the better course is to do as others suggested and notify HR and stick to original end date. I think any extension of the date would be a very difficult environment for OP.

 

[braumeister]

My DD gave her employer 6 weeks notice to allow for a replacement to be found, etc and they didn't even start the search until her last week.

do NOT do some open ended thing like "until we find a replacement" but # of weeks, a date. They will squander 90% of whatever the time is, so don't make it very long at all.

Good advice. This is very common. You are in the driver's seat, so make sure you stay there.

 

[latexman]

Sounds like you are ready to go, but will hang on a short while if paid handsomely.

I would not communicate with the dark side (HR) at all until they schedule your exit interview.

I would document your retirement in an email to your boss and a cc: to his boss. Be sure to mention your last work day, 3/19 (2 weeks). Then end it with, “I am available after 3/19 on a contract basis at _____ (fill in the blank with more than you really want). For example, 1.5X, 2X, or 2.5X what you make now.

That should get them to the negotiation table! Remember, they will negotiate down from your proposal, so go bigger than what you want.

Be aware, this could lead to you being walked out the door, but I doubt it.

 

[Popeye]

My question for the OP is to get a better understanding of the discussion. Is this a boss located in another country or did you call him while he’s traveling in another country on Friday and expect some detailed offer by Monday? Also it sounds like you said you were leaving and would be flexible on the date. Is that correct or did you say, l’m gone in two weeks but might help out for a little longer. To me, that’s two different things. I didn’t see the boss reaction as so harsh, merely a negotiation point. He obviously hasn’t figured out what to do and you’re pressuring for an answer. If you didn’t make it a clear two weeks notice, he may have figured he had more time.

As far as bringing in HR right away, it depends on the company. I know that once they got into things at my Megacorp my options were cut on half as to what I could do. Of course I trusted most of my bosses more than HR over the years.

 

[CardsFan]

I thought the OP's scenario qualified: He made a good faith resignation, and was rebutted, with basically "you can go when I want you to go" and that would be screwy in my book, especially with OP being ready to retire.

He can still walk out with head held high, I would have, but now's the time to get the date formalized since the boss isn't going to give.

No argument here. Just pointing out to think it over. A formal, firm end date is a MUST. Can't agree more. Open-ended is an accident waiting to happen.