Standardized Covid Treatment Protocols?

My regular GP, who works for a mega-practice (because there's a duopoly here ... all bought up by Novant or Atrium) had refused to prescribe ivermectin for me.

I wrote him the day after this news about the NIH softening it's stance on ivermectin, and he called in a prescription for me, which I have in-hand now for symptom day 1, should that arise.

I urge anyone who is "up there" in age to get a prescription filled, and have it on the shelf. I'm a bit concerned that if you don't do it now, the supply of the human form might start to dry-up.

The NIH just today (January 14th) has officially changed their recommendation on the use of Ivermectin to treat COVID-19. Previously, they recommended against its use. Today, they have changed this recommendation referencing the increased numbers of clinical trials that have been done with positive results since their last update on August 27th. They now recommend neither for or against the use of Ivermectin for COVID-19.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/statement-on-ivermectin/
 
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I've got two irons in the fire...one telehealth visit cooking, and one ivermectin purchase from outside the US. Neither of those is a 'done deal', but I figured it's worth trying...I'm convinced ivermectin would be effective at keeping me "less sick" at minimum, and probably better than that. I'm trying not to use this:
Just to follow-up...All irons I had in the fire worked! My telehealth visit with a Houston practice ended in a prophylaxis prescription getting filled at the local CVS. The Mexican Pharmacy sent me the human form (took over one month, but finally showed up). And something I didn't plan on...my GP actually prescribed a course to keep on the shelf for if I show symptoms.
 
NYT has an article about the monoclonal antibody treatment...

It needs to be given within the first 10 days after symptoms start and requires an infusion in a hospital or clinic, so apparently many people who are offered it are declining it as they don't want to go out.

So if you know someone with early symptoms, this might be helpful.

I tested positive on Monday, but my wife did not. I began the phase2/3 the monoclonal soup Eli Lilly trial on Wed. My wife still is negative or would have gone on the trial as well. There is a 60% chance I got the soup. The trial docs all claim they are seeing an 80% reduction in hospital admissions. The infusion went well, the extensive blood draws were draining, so to speak...I certainly hope I got the soup.

Within a few hours of going home, my reaction was an elevated body temp, increase congestion, AND total loss of taste and smell. Earlier that day I was not very symptomatic, I had a fever on Sunday the day before my test. I am hoping the new symptoms are an immune response.

The GREAT thing about doing the trial, even if it is the placebo, is the constant daily monitoring and care from a dedicated team of doctors. I was lucky to have the very close hospital doing the trial and looking for folks like me, but then I guess I could have requested the currently approved version without a trial. I hope to provide updates, if not that would be bad news....:(
 
:dance:As an update to my trial experience here are a few links for those interested in the trial.
https://www.riseabovecovid.org/en/faq/
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/new...lonal-antibody-therapy-mild-moderate-covid-19
I have no way to know if I got the good soup, but by Friday I was feeling pretty good and Saturday I had no symptoms.
At this time now Sunday, I am feeling pretty certain the course of the illness had ended. The county health department stated that I could go out in public as of Feb 3 if I have no symptoms. However, I am still in this trial until late April with blood draws and monitoring. I may be simply lucky and resistant to the virus OR I got some great juice on Wednesday that kicked it fast.:angel:
 
... OR I got some great juice on Wednesday that kicked it fast.:angel:

So, I might have missed it, how did this play out for you? You got symptoms first, then you quickly joined the trial? Did they ask if you were doing anything else, besides the randomized thing (monoclonal antibodies / salt water)? Would you be excluded if you were taking something like ivermectin?
 
So, I might have missed it, how did this play out for you? You got symptoms first, then you quickly joined the trial? Did they ask if you were doing anything else, besides the randomized thing (monoclonal antibodies / salt water)? Would you be excluded if you were taking something like ivermectin?

So I had a slight fever last Sunday, and had a runny nose for maybe 1 week prior. I got tested Monday (I had to pay for an office visit or wait 3 days for an appointment, #@$@).

I was called on Tuesday with a positive result ( I saw it on line earlier). They suggested I participate in the trial, and was called that night.

Since I had not been tested positive prior, AND I was not taking any other treatment like ivermectin, I was eligible. If I had a history of prior Covid-19 it would negate the study result as I might have some immune response. Use of any other alternate treatment would negate the trial result.

IMO, if you test positive-get the antibody treatment. If possible Regeneron approved soup, or do the trial and hope you get the good soup. The trial is 3/2 or a 60% chance of getting the antibodies and not saline. When the doc explained their track record in the trial so far, it was a no brainer. He stated they are seeing an 80% reduction in hospital admissions due to this. The trial is mostly OP's like me or older. He had folks in their late 80's respond very well.
 
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I have read several articles that hospitals have plenty of monoclonal antibody treatments but aren’t using it. It maybe the supervised 1 hour infusion with a COVID patient - not sure of the hold up.

On that subject, DW just learned that the husband (mid-70's) of a childhood friend was diagnosed with Covid on Wed and got the monoclonal antibody infusion on Friday. He's at home (Abilene) and doing well so far.

DW's friend is very worried since her brother died from Covid last year.
 
Israel Medical System

I debated whether to place this message in the Corona virus forum or the general Health forum. While on the surface this discussion is mostly about the Corona virus, the really interesting parts, IMHO, is the discussion of how the medical system in Israel works - how it's organized, how it's run and how it has organized mountains of data that can help in the event of a future epidemic or pandemic. It's quite fascinating. In the end, since CV still drives things, I put it in this group.

This podcast begins to tell us why Israel has led the world in getting people vaccinated for Covid by orders of magnitude. Nobody else is close. What is fascinating to an old IT guy like me is how they use Big Data and AI to organize and analyze their efforts so they can and effectively fight back against a disease.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...ccination-nation/id1539292794?i=1000505121068

Israel has a population of 7 million people. As of mid January they had vaccinated 20% of their population. They hope to get everybody fully vaccinated by mid-April. Most other first world countries were in the low single digits at that time. Some, like France and Canada, were below 1%. My home state which has about the same population is currently at 2% fully vaccinated.

To understand how did Israel become... Vaccination Nation, we welcome Yonatan Adiri, who is the Founder and CEO of Healthy.IO, a fast-growing digital health start-up, headquartered in Tel Aviv.
 
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JAMA article about ivermectin

This is a rather long post that probably should be ignored by most everyone. If you're interested in the JAMA article (you shouldn't be, because it's one neutral RCT out of dozens of prospective trials). But if you're interested in that, just google it...I'm not going to link to it, or anything, in this post (you can do your own searching, if inclined). Anyway, this post is a bit of what I'd call an "informed rant" about how disappointed I am in the way the medical establishment (businesses and governments) appear to be failing to act in the interest of public health. It's complicated and nuanced, so exploration in this space is not for the impatient.

Anyway..... Thankfully, with the speedy vaccine roll-outs, we have less to worry about with respect to treating the disease of the pandemic. But treatment is nowhere near to inconsequential...yet. We hope for no viral variant "escapes", that the vaccines do their job, and we can get back to whatever the new normal will be. But for the mean time, it would be nice to have a way to keep people out of the hospital.

Commonly in treating viral disease, I have found no one that suggests that early treatment is not a good thing. But we don't really have accepted and effective early treatments. The NIH has lots of things that are in the "can't recommend for or against" category: monoclonal antibodies (the *mab drugs), zinc, dexamethasone, remdesivir, and ivermectin. The standard protocol is stay home, do nothing, and wait for your O2 saturation to drop below 85, then go to the hospital to get oxygen, LMWH and steroids (and hope you don't become a statistic). If you're at higher risk, and you alert your doctor shortly after symptoms appear, you might get monocolonal antibodies early enough to do some good, but you really need to be on the ball to go that route.

Even though we have huge vaccination programs, we are not done treating the disease, and we still really don't have accepted effective treatments. We have one non-accepted, possibly effective treatment, ivermectin, but it's facing an uphill battle, as there is no large pharmaceutical company that can make any money from it. In fact, they stand to loose money because ivermectin could reduce demand for the things they make that also can treat the disease.

For people who aren't immersed in the Covid-19 treatment options from around the world, a recent JAMA article might have been the first time someone heard of the drug "ivermectin". JAMA is probably the most high impact medical journal out there, so when they publish something, it makes the news; several news outlets picked-up on the article, as they should. So the choice by JAMA to publish this particular study from Columbia, which shows no efficacy of ivermectin, is puzzling. If I were not paying attention, I'd say "Oh, that's JAMA and they say ivermectin doesn't work...good enough for me". But I am paying attention, and it might sound like a "sour grapes" position, but I really don't think it's fair or wise to weight this particular study such that it overrides all of the earlier published studies on ivermectin. This study used a young population. Young people typically don't have much room for improvement with any therapy, so the fact that there wasn't statistical significance in the outcomes isn't all that surprising. But there is another problem: the study was powered such that their primary outcome would be statistically significant, but after the study started, they changed their primary outcome, and so now the study became under-powered (making the difference between the treatment and placebo arm insignificant only because the numbers were too small). Then there's the fact that the authors take money from big pharma. The other disturbing thing was that the side-effects reported by the placebo arm included the typical side-effects of ivermectin. They aren't serious side-effects, but ivermectin at the relatively higher doses used in this study have nausea and diarrhea as occasional side-effects. The intervention and control arms had almost identical rates of these side-effects. And this, at a time when ivermectin was available over-the-counter to the community where the study was undertaken. We probably won't ever know if the placebo arm knew they weren't being treated and so self treated. The trial used an oral solution instead of pills (which was weird, because it comes in pills), and the participants could probably taste the difference. Anyway, a weird study to put in the JAMA.

So, again, I find it puzzling that JAMA decided to publish this particular study, as there are dozens of higher quality studies that don't have the confounding variables found in this study that they chose to publish. We've talked earlier in this thread about FLCCC meta analysis, but there's other people around the world that have done their own meta analysis (search "ivermectin meta analysis andrew hill" or "ivermectin meta analysis tess lawrie"). These doctors and researchers have used conservative prescribed methodologies to conduct their research, yet have faced problems getting their papers published. But the point here was that if you choose to, you can look at those meta analysis reports and dig into the individual trials that don't have as many glaring flaws of the JAMA paper.

So if I type "fda ivermectin" in the search box, I see "Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19". If you read the page, there's almost nothing that supports the headline. They say not to take horse medicine. Ok, no problem. They claim to have received "multiple reports" of people who did use the horse medicine and needed "medical support". The problem there is that all inquiries into the specifics by news agencies have lead to a dead-end. But don't take horse medicine, fine, I got it.

FDA says it's not approved for Covid-19 (but is for parasites). Ok. Taking large doses is "bad". Ok, don't take large doses because that can have side effects. Nobody is suggesting anything larger than the parasite dose anyway. Take it the way your doctor prescribes it. Ok.

FDA says "Ivermectin is not an anti-viral (a drug for treating viruses)." Maybe what they meant is that the typical use of ivermectin is as an anti-parasitic. That does not mean it does not exhibit antiviral properties. There are loads of peer-reviewed studies that indicate anti-viral properties of ivermectin. Under this logic, Viagra is not an erectile dysfunction drug because it was originally used for hypertension.

So you get lazy (or worse) journalists who look at one JAMA article, and one page on the FDA site, and write an "ivermectin doesn't work" article, without understanding the whole picture. And you get revolving door, government, k-street, big pharma types that cherry pick the news that suits their purpose, at the expense of public health.

When I go to "Consumer Health Digest" and type-in "ivermectin" in the search, I get no hits whatsoever, but I have a trusted source who received an email from them. The content of the email was cherry-picked to match their headline: "Ivermectin panned for COVID-19 treatment and prevention." They found one obscure government health body in New South Wales that agrees with the NIH (insufficient data for or against), but managed not to mention that Slovakia, Belize, Macedonia, Bulgaria, South Africa, Zimbabwe and more have approved the drug for treatment of Covid-19. What? No mention that some governments have formally adopted ivermectin for treatment of Covid-19? Puru was an early adopter and was handing it out like candy. There's a convincing population study on the effects of that protocol. Unfortunately, a new president came into office and not only did he stop those programs, but also changed the drug to prescription only, whereas it was over the counter. The cases in Puru shot back up after that. The CHD email goes on to cherry pick the "not an anti-viral" line from the FDA, and the under powered JAMA study. This CHD email provides links to everything negative, but does not link to anything balanced, or to the dozens of prospective RCT's, case studies and population studies that show the other side of the discussion (for specifics on that, I'll suggest again, search "ivermectin meta analysis andrew hill" or "ivermectin meta analysis tess lawrie"). These are authors that do meta analysis for a living.

Above, I've alluded to one aspect of my theory as to why the story of ivermectin is so clouded, and that's money. This stuff (ivermectin) is literally made by the ton. There is zero money to be made on it. And if popularized, would stand to take the place of things that do make money (not naming any names, although I could).

Another idea for why there is such a clouded story around ivermectin is the idea that the public isn't smart enough to handle the truth. Everyone remembers the flip-flop on PPE; when masks were needed by the healthcare workers, rather than the message be "please don't buy masks because the healthcare workers need them more than you do", the message was "masks don't work". There was nuance on my brief historical recount of that situation, of course, which I don't wish to explore here because it's not relevant. I just want to make the point that the entities that control and release such messages to the public don't seem to trust the public with the truth. What if "they" gave up the fight, and allowed ivermectin a fair shake? I think the government medical industrial complex apple cart would be quite upset.
 
Another idea for why there is such a clouded story around ivermectin is the idea that the public isn't smart enough to handle the truth. Everyone remembers the flip-flop on PPE; when masks were needed by the healthcare workers, rather than the message be "please don't buy masks because the healthcare workers need them more than you do", the message was "masks don't work". There was nuance on my brief historical recount of that situation, of course, which I don't wish to explore here because it's not relevant. I just want to make the point that the entities that control and release such messages to the public don't seem to trust the public with the truth. What if "they" gave up the fight, and allowed ivermectin a fair shake? I think the government medical industrial complex apple cart would be quite upset.

Yep.

This event is a window into the future, on many fronts.
 
Thank you for opening this thread.

Another reason to have early treatment is that "some" people (even those who have a supposedly non-serious case of COVID19) are left with residual problems.

A friend had it in January. She described it in words something like "not that bad" -- but still has persistent fatigue and currently can only work three hours a day...!

Here's a video about studies and getting things published, or rather, not:

https://trialsitenews.com/news-roun...tin-meta-analysis-the-fda-and-dr-andrew-hill/
 
My BIL in TN got the monoclonal antibody treatment. His doctor was proactive. BIL is over 65. Doctor ordered the treatment days ahead of availability. By the time treatment day came, BIL's O2sat was in decline.

He had rapid improvement after 24 hours and is doing well, avoiding hospitalization.

At least in TN, the doc you have is important.
 
Above, I've alluded to one aspect of my theory as to why the story of ivermectin is so clouded, and that's money. This stuff (ivermectin) is literally made by the ton. There is zero money to be made on it. And if popularized, would stand to take the place of things that do make money (not naming any names, although I could).

Another idea for why there is such a clouded story around ivermectin is the idea that the public isn't smart enough to handle the truth. Everyone remembers the flip-flop on PPE; when masks were needed by the healthcare workers, rather than the message be "please don't buy masks because the healthcare workers need them more than you do", the message was "masks don't work". There was nuance on my brief historical recount of that situation, of course, which I don't wish to explore here because it's not relevant. I just want to make the point that the entities that control and release such messages to the public don't seem to trust the public with the truth. What if "they" gave up the fight, and allowed ivermectin a fair shake? I think the government medical industrial complex apple cart would be quite upset.


I'm not surprised that Ivermectin is not being talked about more as a COVID treatment. It's all about money, as you said. And you can say the same thing about Vitamin D (and maintaining adequate levels of Vitamin D in your blood), which is proving to be the most effective way to prevent serious cases of COVID. There's no money to be made selling Vitamin D either, so it's not being talked about nearly as much as it should be. Here is the latest on Vitamin D and COVID, which I just saw today:https://www.endocrinepractice.org/a...KNw&utm_content=115998053&utm_source=hs_email
 
Interesting story about ivermectin. Up until 5 months ago I never heard of it.

Was looking for some treatments for my rosacea and found a relatively new topical treatment approved is ivermectin. It sells under the brand Soolantra and it ain't cheap.

Because it's so expensive people have started using the ivermectin horse paste on their face.

It works great, completely clearing up the bumps and pimples and even reduces some of the redness. One little tube costs several hundred dollars if you don't have insurance and last about a month.
 
IVM is a potent neurotoxin. It's bad news if it crosses the blood-brain barrier. See, for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5929173/.

While it may be helpful in early stages of severe COVID disease where other treatments are not available, it appears generally ineffective in long haul patients. Anecdotally in the support groups, some people experience symptomatic relief, only to have symptoms return when IVM is discontinued. I personally would not touch this drug because of the neurotoxicity.

Some real anti-virals, such as the Remdesivir metabolite GS-441524, are much more promising. GS-441524 is known as the FIP drug, because it has been successful in treating cats with a mutated corona virus that causes the usually fatal disease FIP. GS-441524 is being studied at a lab at MD Anderson and NIH has purchased some for preclinical studies and clinical trials for COVID in humans. The MD Anderson people have published a couple of papers, including one on safety and tolerance in dogs.

Viral persistence of some kind is starting to be accepted for this virus. At least one of the variants arose from persistent virus in an immune-compromised patient. Persistent virus may be responsible for many of the "long haul" issues. If that turns out to be correct, long haul patients may serve as viral reservoirs and mutation sources. Anti-virals may be the only way to eradicate the virus.
 
IVM is a potent neurotoxin. It's bad news if it crosses the blood-brain barrier.
Ivermectin is contra indicated for people with BBB issues. That being said, there have been something like 3 billion people treated with ivermectin and there's apparently no neurotoxicity problem in the profile, that I could find. It's all about the herxheimer reaction caused by the parasites that are dying off, which of course won't be a problem with the drug in the treatment of Covid-19. I'm not trying to convince anyone to undertake any course of treatment...that's between you and your doctor.

I agree that there is not a lot of convincing evidence for ivermectin in treating long-haul Covid-19. Although I know of one anecdote where resolution of long haul symptoms ended after ivermectin, I wouldn't bet on that being a highly effective treatment. Pulsed steroids would be something I'd explore with my doctor if I were in that situation. But other stages of the disease are a different story. I would bet on ivermectin in prophylaxis stage treatment, early viral stage disease treatment, mild inflammation stage disease treatment and acute inflammation stage treatment. This is based on clinical trials, many prospective and well-designed, that indicate effectiveness. There's also case studies and population studies. They all seem to line up. Maybe I'm being naïve, but I don't think because a study was undertaken in some other country that I should assume it's fraudulent or is somehow not believable (not that you indicated this...I'm on a tangent).

Interesting about the drug development in cats might be helping a pandemic. Anti-virals have been less than stellar in their efficacy so far. I really hope those studying how viruses work can make breakthroughs; we need all the help we can get battling these viruses.
 
Ivermectin is contra indicated for people with BBB issues. That being said, there have been something like 3 billion people treated with ivermectin and there's apparently no neurotoxicity problem in the profile, that I could find. It's all about the herxheimer reaction caused by the parasites that are dying off, which of course won't be a problem with the drug in the treatment of Covid-19. I'm not trying to convince anyone to undertake any course of treatment...that's between you and your doctor.

I agree that there is not a lot of convincing evidence for ivermectin in treating long-haul Covid-19. Although I know of one anecdote where resolution of long haul symptoms ended after ivermectin, I wouldn't bet on that being a highly effective treatment. Pulsed steroids would be something I'd explore with my doctor if I were in that situation. But other stages of the disease are a different story. I would bet on ivermectin in prophylaxis stage treatment, early viral stage disease treatment, mild inflammation stage disease treatment and acute inflammation stage treatment. This is based on clinical trials, many prospective and well-designed, that indicate effectiveness. There's also case studies and population studies. They all seem to line up. Maybe I'm being naïve, but I don't think because a study was undertaken in some other country that I should assume it's fraudulent or is somehow not believable (not that you indicated this...I'm on a tangent).

Interesting about the drug development in cats might be helping a pandemic. Anti-virals have been less than stellar in their efficacy so far. I really hope those studying how viruses work can make breakthroughs; we need all the help we can get battling these viruses.

If persistent virus is the culprit, it would be stupid to use steroids for treating long haul patients. You would just encourage the virus.

I think IVM might have a place in treating COVID in the early phases, if there are no other treatments available. I don't see the studies you are seeing. I saw a small study from Chile IIRC that has been heavily criticized. Maybe you can post some references? I'm reserving judgement until I can review properly conducted clinical trial studies but I'm not willing to take this drug unless it is proven completely safe and effective.
 
If persistent virus is the culprit, it would be stupid to use steroids for treating long haul patients. You would just encourage the virus.

I think IVM might have a place in treating COVID in the early phases, if there are no other treatments available. I don't see the studies you are seeing. I saw a small study from Chile IIRC that has been heavily criticized. Maybe you can post some references? I'm reserving judgement until I can review properly conducted clinical trial studies but I'm not willing to take this drug unless it is proven completely safe and effective.
I'm not going to link to specific studies, but I will give you names of people who have done meta analysis. This will enable you to find the most influential papers. Separate meta analysis were done by Doctors Tess Lawrie and Andrew Hill, and also doctors Pierre Kory and Paul Marik.

Just to make sure it works, I searched and found https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-148845/v1 after searching [ivermectin meta-analysis "andrew hill"] (in a private window so not to confound the search with my identity). I also found https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-...the-prophylaxis-and-treatment-of-COVID-19.pdf after searching [ivermectin meta-analysis "pierre kory"].

I'm no doctor, nor have I played one on TV, but there are doctors (clinicians) that are treating long haul Covid that have relayed positive experience with pulsed steroids. I haven't heard it's any kind of silver bullet, but apparently seems efficacious in some patients. I'm nowhere near smart enough, or have enough data to challenge them, or you, but I think they'd say there's no culturable (viable) virus around at this point, so the immune system impact from a steroid is not an issue. Of course we know virus' can be good at hiding, and if the immune suppression aspect of steroids allowed some formerly hidden virus to replicate, I'd suspect the patient would feel worse and the prescribing doctor would get that message.
 
I am not a Dr either, but if inflammation is present in a long haul patient, why wouldn't steroids help to tamp down the inflammation?
 
I am not a Dr either, but if inflammation is present in a long haul patient, why wouldn't steroids help to tamp down the inflammation?
I think that's the MOA, and I think that's why it seems to be helpful. The earlier post was probably presuming the immune suppression effect of steroids would be a bad idea, but I think that presumption was based on the worry that reduced immune response would allow more viral replication. But as Covid-19 is a multi-stage disease, once the viral stage is over and viral replication is no longer detectable, that's less of a concern. Instead there's all of the inflammation due to endothelial and other damage, and taming inflammation is more important.
 
Molnupiravir: The Other Shoe?

Molnupiravir is an orally delivered (outpatient) Covid-19 remedy for early disease. This is the place where ivermectin fits, and where remdesivir fits.

Molnupiravir is being developed by, guess who: Merck. You might recall that Merck panned it's own drug "Stromectin" (branded version of ivermectin) as the wrong choice for treating early Covid, even though dozens of prospective trials, clinical studies, and population studies from around the world showed efficacy.

But come to find out, they (Merck) are working with Emory University (DRIVE) to make this new money-maker drug called molnupiravir. Note that the barely helpful and hard to administer (hospital setting, IV only) remdesivir earned 3 billion, so there's a lot of money to be made here.

So, now we not only have big pharma business that's putting public health behind profits, we also have academia joining them. We're doomed.
 
Yet another shoe: This is becoming all to apparent

So Pfizer is now showing up with an early-treatment for Covid-19.

Right, so let's put this head-to-head with molnupiravir and ivermectin.

Pfizer’s oral protease inhibitor, code-named PF-07321332...Pfizer said it plans to share more data on the compound at the American Chemical Society meeting on April 6.

Big pharma are all cloistered in their labs, trying to figure out why ivermectin works and trying to come up with some patent-able drug that does the same thing. Oh, by the way, they're blocking ivermectin while people are dying.

Sorry, paywall (not that I paid for it): https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...human-trials-of-new-pill-to-treat-coronavirus
 
Isn't ivermectin part of the iMask or iMATH protocol and wasn't it being used in some hospitals early on?
Sorry, I can't link the articles I used months ago.
 
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