Anyone buying into the Rivian IPO?

When a company has growing sales, its stock is rewarded with a high valuation as investors flock in to participate. This is always true, no matter what business the company is in. Not just EV, but it could be coffee (Green Mountain Coffee), or donuts (Krispy Kreme), etc...

Often, when sales are growing fast, investors do not mind if the company is selling at a loss, because they expect the company will "make it up in volumes" later. This does not always work out, as we have seen with the dotcoms in the late 1990s.

Tesla's sales are definitely growing, and the company deserves a higher valuation than traditional car makers. The question one ponders is how high it should be.

Tesla's sales are expected to reach 1 million car in 2021. The company's valuation is $1 trillion. That's $1 million for each car that it produces this year. Is that too high, or not high enough?
 
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Tesla's sales are expected to reach 1 million car in 2021. The company's valuation is $1 trillion. That's $1 million for each car that it produces this year. Is that too high, or not high enough?


More like 900.000 cars in 2021 I believe. But close enough for this.


Rivian will make around 1000 cars in 2021 and is valued at 127 billions. Which would be $127 million for each car.


Which is ridiculous when the Rivian upstart is valued so much compared to the experienced Tesla which even the boss of VW says is much better at volume production than they are. Rivian hasn't started on volume production yet.



But looking back when valuing growth companies does not give me much. I would much rather look forward.



With their valuation Rivian should have enough money to fight many obstacles.



Their cars are expensive - like the first Teslas Models S and X. It was first when Tesla introduced the much lower priced Models 3 and Y that their revenue and profit started to soar. Rivian seems to be priced like their expensive pickup and SUV models will sell much better than Teslas much lower priced cars.



To me this sounds like investors did not even to the most basic napkin maths on Rivian. Perhaps they missed out on Tesla and now jump in without looking hoping that this EV company will be as successful as Tesla.



Tesla's sales are definitely growing, and the company deserves a higher valuation than traditional car makers. The question one ponders is how high it should be.



Tesla said years ago that they planned to increase the car production by 40% per year until 2030. So far they have exceeded their yearly goals. Which is to make 20 mill cars per year in ca. 2030. And recently they guided a 50% yearly growt from here on. With fixed (?) costs not growing by much this make for interesting graphs when projecting revenue and profit in the years to come.


Then you have Tesla Energy and their very big batteries like the one in Hornsdale. The energy sector has a much larger TAM than the car industry. Other companies make large battery packs too. But how many can they make.


Just like batteries in cars - batteries in megapacks for Energy balancing need to come from somewhere. And this is where Tesla shine in my book. Not only are they building battery cell factory capacity greater than anyone else. They are also building a factory making the machinery needed to build battery cell factories. Without tons of batteries available how will the competition beat Tesla in production capacity?


And then you have the software part of Tesla. Monthly subscriptions is the holy grail for the valuation of many tech companies. Tesla already have some income here from premium multimedia and autopilot functions in their cars.

The autopilot in my car is pretty shitty compared to the closed beta of the new generation autopilot being tested by a closed beta test group. But I'm already there that I would not consider a car without this function. So I will gladly pay a monthly fee or a large upfront amount. The amount of potential customers grow faster and faster.


And when they get the autopilot complete enough to drive on it's own they plan to launch a robot taxi service. I haven't included this in my valuation of Tesla but I'm sure it's coming. I just don't know when. And it will be big.


The competition from other EV companies like Rivian and the traditional car makers will come. And from other megapack battery makers. But since almost none of them - with Ford as possibly the best exception here - think much about where they will get their battery supply from I think they will grow slower than many expect.


My last point here is that I wonder how GM, Ford, VW and the rest will manage the cost of becoming EV companies. In addition to the Teslas the only other EV I know that is selling at a profit today is the very high priced Porsche Taycan.


While fossil car sales and profits dwindle they must shut down their fossil engine production lines and let people with the wrong knowledge go so that their pension commitments grow. And at the same time they must invest in research and development into electric motors, modern connected cars and they really should look into battery production too.


It will be interesting to watch.
 
Knowing how long it took for Tesla to put together more than one profitable quarter, I wouldn’t bet on Rivian. Will they have the cash to survive the long slog to becoming a going enterprise, sales, distribution, service, capital, etc. But best of luck to those who do.
 
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While not relevant to this thread, I just could not help myself.

Folks ought to invest wodges of cash in Freeway Service Centers. All these electric car & truck owners will need somewhere to stay, eat and entertain themselves while ALL their cars are charging.

I am sorry but I am not a believer that they will take over the world. OK for pottering around the hood I suppose, but for long distances, I do not see it. Maybe when batteries can charge in the time it takes for a potty break, but until then......
 
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While not relevant to this thread, I just could not help myself.

Folks ought to invest wodges of cash in Freeway Service Centers. All these electric car & truck owners will need somewhere to stay, eat and entertain themselves while ALL their cars are charging.

I am sorry but I am not a believer that they will take over the world. OK for pottering around the hood I suppose, but for long distances, I do not see it. Maybe when batteries can charge in the time it takes for a potty break, but until then......
Most drivers don’t do long distance driving every day, so that’s not the base case that EV hesitants like to throw out there. Over 90% of EV owners charge at home, where it’s cheap and convenient, so access to chargers elsewhere isn’t as big a barrier for most people as you might think. Assuming charger access has to be anything like gas station access is an invalid assumption. It’ll take far fewer charge stations than present gas stations to make EVs viable. There will be millions of two car homes with an EV and an ICE over the next decade, another viable solution.

Only those who drive long distances often and/or people without access to any home charger have that reason to rule out an EV. There will be many
 
There will be millions of two car homes with an EV and an ICE over the next decade, another viable solution.

I can see one as a second car. That may be practical. But I do not see it as a cost advantage, especially with the price premium. For those who are super green, it may make them feel better, which is a good thing, as there are a lot of folks who are not. I would like a good 2 place electric Motor Cycle/Scooter for local pottering, but no one makes an affordable one yet.

We use about 1 tank of petrol a month, the cost is not a factor. BUT when we take car trips, we do ~700-800 miles a day, that is important to us. I do not consider us a great contributors to climate change as we do not have a huge carbon footprint. We are all electric with the exception of a propane BBQ and Tankless Water heater, we use about 100 gallons of propane a year, if that. OMDV.
 
Tesla has had some impressive successes, but I have doubts about many of Musk's promises. Some of the things he said have not proven out, and are nowhere near the goals that were set. I will not pay in advance for "pie in the sky" promises.

Not all investors are comfortable with Tesla's valuation, and if they are not buying Tesla, they sure as heck will not touch Rivian.

I am not saying Rivian may not become a viable EV maker. It may very well will be, with the backing of Amazon and Ford. I am saying Rivian is not worth the $100B current valuation. I am not buying. Of course, there are plenty of investors who don't agree with me. It's fair. It's their money to do as they wish.
 
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I just don't see why one would spend so much on a Tesla or Rivian when you can get 50 mpg with a hybrid Camry.

Also the RAV4 Prime has hybrid + EV 40 mile capability. So for a city car the RAV4 Prime would be really nice and you don't have to tolerate the charging issues or the range issues. Plus you have the clearance to drive on rutted roads and such. You can visit Death Valley all you want. :)
 
As an engineer with an auto background, I would not touch Rivian anytime soon. To frame it, Rivian has projected it will reach 1M autos in production...in 10 years. It is currently custom making auto's, similar to many of the other small auto companies that haven't actually entered anywhere near production.

That means it is no were remotely close to beginning production hell, which will be a several year process. It is basically where Tesla was sometime in the early 2010's. The 10-year growth is not impressive comparative to any reasonable competitor, and the current valuation is so off, by a couple orders of magnitude. I believe a large majority of investors are very skeptical as a result. This could be a great company eventually, but the stock is almost inevitably going to nose-dive for a long time before they can start reaching their first positive quarter.

As for how it initially got such a crazy valuation, the story doesn't sound good when you dig into it. Amazon was cut a sweet deal of 20% stock at a low price in exchange for a non-binding promise from Amazon to buy 100K trucks, if Rivian can deliver at a price and quality Amazon will accept. Ford also bought 5%, likely because Ford needs to develop as much help as it can get to transition to EV's, since it is pretty behind a majority of its competitors at this point. While this is mildly positive, it is not going to prop Rivian up past a year, when the lock-in period ends for a lot of their early investors who will likely want a quick payoff on a stock with a lot of bad quarters ahead of it.
 
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^^^ Tempted as I have been with some stocks, I have never sold anything short.

"The stock market can remain irrational a lot longer than you can remain solvent."

It is safer to buy put options, which have a lower risk, and I have looked into it. The premium is high, however, and the time value of the option significantly reduces the potential reward. I passed it up.

I make plenty of money doing the things that I already do, and don't want to take on more risks.
 
I can see one as a second car. That may be practical. But I do not see it as a cost advantage, especially with the price premium. For those who are super green, it may make them feel better, which is a good thing, as there are a lot of folks who are not. I would like a good 2 place electric Motor Cycle/Scooter for local pottering, but no one makes an affordable one yet.

We use about 1 tank of petrol a month, the cost is not a factor. BUT when we take car trips, we do ~700-800 miles a day, that is important to us. I do not consider us a great contributors to climate change as we do not have a huge carbon footprint. We are all electric with the exception of a propane BBQ and Tankless Water heater, we use about 100 gallons of propane a year, if that. OMDV.
A little patronizing? You realize there’s another big reason people choose EVs aside from running cost savings alone. [I don’t own an EV, but expect to in the next few years]
 
Not all investors are comfortable with Tesla's valuation, and if they are not buying Tesla, they sure as heck will not touch Rivian.

I am not saying Rivian may not become a viable EV maker. It may very well will be, with the backing of Amazon and Ford. I am saying Rivian is not worth the $100B current valuation. I am not buying. Of course, there are plenty of investors who don't agree with me. It's fair. It's their money to do as they wish.

Rivian is expected to sell less than 40,000 vehicles next year. That's 1/32nd Tesla's forecasted 2022 vehicle sales. Yet, FOMO buyers have bid up Rivian to more than 1/10th Tesla's market cap. That valuation makes absolutely zero sense based solely on expected near-term sales.

To me this sounds like investors did not even to the most basic napkin maths on Rivian. Perhaps they missed out on Tesla and now jump in without looking hoping that this EV company will be as successful as Tesla.

I agree. Several family members of mine who "have never bought a single stock" in their lives are salivating at the chance to buy RIVN - all because my nephew works there and has told them how "hot" it is. They know absolutely NOTHING about how to value the company or assess it's prospects.

RIVN valuation to me is bonkers and totally unsupported. I've never shorted a stock before, either, but it's sure tempting to short RIVN. The risk in that, though, is there are so many people like those I described above that are going to likely keep pushing it up - at least short term. But long term, it almost HAS to go splat in a big way..
 
Speaking of people who are not accustomed with big numbers, I do not have a Twitter account but the other day when looking at Musk's polling about selling Tesla shares, I saw a reply by a Twitter poster who said "Yes, Musk should sell 22 billion dollars worth of stock. If divided by the world population, everyone gets 3 million".

Hah! Did this guy think the world had only 7 thousand people, instead of 7 billion people? Or he did not know what a billion is?

Musk would need 22 quadrillion in order to give everyone 3 million, instead of just 3 bucks.

What is more interesting is that the Twitter poster got several hundred up votes. I scratched my head, wondering if this was a joke.
 
Rivian is expected to sell less than 40,000 vehicles next year. That's 1/32nd Tesla's forecasted 2022 vehicle sales. Yet, FOMO buyers have bid up Rivian to more than 1/10th Tesla's market cap. That valuation makes absolutely zero sense based solely on expected near-term sales...

I have not followed Rivian, but am sure it has supporters who will say that it will not take long for Rivian to crank out zillions of vehicles, and the company will be worth trillions. And they will say you've got to get in now, or will miss out.

How about buying Nikola, which is worth $5B despite having no sales, in fact not even a prototype? If you wait till it really has something, the company will be worth $50B. You've got to buy right now, or miss out on a 10X gain. :)
 
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I have not followed Rivian, but am sure it has supporters who will say that it will not take long for Rivian to crank out zillions of vehicles, and the company will be worth trillions. And they will say you've got to get in now, or will miss out.

How about buying Nikola, which is worth $5B despite having no sales, in fact not even a prototype? If you wait till it really has something, the company will be worth $50B. You've got to buy right now, or miss out on a 10X gain. :)

This is sounding so 1999.
 
This is sounding so 1999.

Wasn't it in 1996 when Alan Greenspan warned about irrational exuberance and it played out for years. So who really knows where we are at in the market cycle, but yes the market does seem to be getting more euphoric by the day.
 
Thinking back about that period, what was scary was that I still got hurt even though I bought no dotcoms, only tech companies with real products and sales. Their P/Es were high, but people justified it by saying that their sales were growing. I felt more assured holding these stocks, compared to the dotcoms.

Came the tech crash. Everything went down. It was of no consolation to me that the dotcoms got totally wiped out, when my own stocks went to 1/2 or 1/3 of their high. When sales were no longer growing due to the economy tanking, P/E got recalibrated to a lot lower number. Yes, so many companies were overvalued. The only ones that were not overvalued then were "old-economy" stocks, the potato chip makers instead of the silicon chip makers.

I am telling ya, I have been reducing my stock AA. It was as high as 80%, but is now approaching 60%. I may reduce it further by setting lower strike prices on my covered calls, so that they get assigned.
 
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Thinking back about that period, what was scary was that I still got hurt even though I bought no dotcoms, only tech companies with real products and sales. Their P/Es were high, but people justified it by saying that their sales were growing. I felt more assured holding these stocks, compared to the dotcoms.

Came the tech crash. Everything went down. It was of no consolation to me that the dotcoms got totally wiped out, when my own stocks went to 1/2 or 1/3 of their high. When sales were no longer growing due to the economy tanking, P/E got recalibrated to a lot lower number. Yes, so many companies were overvalued. The only ones that were not overvalued then were "old-economy" stocks, the potato chip makers instead of the silicon chip makers.

I am telling ya, I have been reducing my stock AA. It was as high as 80%, but is now approaching 60%. I may reduce it further by setting lower strike prices on my covered calls, so that they get assigned.


I recall walking into work one morning and a co worker told me he made 25,000 in one day with a tech stock he just bought. I owned Sun Micro at the time. When the bottom started falling out, I dumped my Sun and only lost 50% on it. I don't know what my co worker lost overall, but he never talked about stocks again.

Now that the "algos" of hyper speed computers make most of the trades, we can expect a market dump to be very quick. Forget stop loss orders.

But with the FED Put in place, the market should be saved.:D
 
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Here's another story, this one is about the housing bubble that came after the dotcoms.

After work, we often went to a bar close to megacorp to drink beer and shoot the breeze. A waitress there talked to us about buying a home with little or no money down. She said she intended to refinance to take out cash when the house appreciated. Rinse and repeat. Easy money.

Indeed, people were treating their home as ATM. We laughed, but who would have thunk the subprime fiasco spread far and wide, way beyond the stupid and greedy bankers and their clients? Man, everyone got hurt.

I don't like it when I read about people getting rich with meme stocks, crypto, and unicorn stocks. It's not that I envy them. Far from it, as I have plenty, and a lot more than them kids have. What I don't like is I cannot predict when this will crash down, and how it is going to affect the economy and other stocks that I am holding.
 
Here's another story, this one is about the housing bubble that came after the dotcoms.

After work, we often went to a bar close to megacorp to drink beer and shoot the breeze. A waitress there talked to us about buying a home with little or no money down. She said she intended to refinance to take out cash when the house appreciated. Rinse and repeat. Easy money.

Indeed, people were treating their home as ATM. We laughed, but who would have thunk the subprime fiasco spread far and wide, way beyond the stupid and greedy bankers and their clients? Man, everyone got hurt.

I don't like it when I read about people getting rich with meme stocks, crypto, and unicorn stocks. It's not that I envy them. Far from it, as I have plenty, and a lot more than them kids have. What I don't like is I cannot predict when this will crash down, and how it is going to affect the economy and other stocks that I am holding.

You are a bit younger than I am (I just turned 78) and I am real nervous about watching this balloon expand. We can't afford a big flame out and if it turns into a "Japan" type situation, the market may stay down for a real long time. That's why I am 30% in equities right now and struggling to make anything with the fixed portion. We are safe for whatever happens as the house is paid for and we have no other debt.

I don't have the stomach to buy into high priced stocks with 900 P/E ratios or crypto. what I (we all) see going on is completely nuts and it ever unwinds and the FED can't stop it, good luck to all.
 
Curious if anyone is buying into the Rivian (RIVN) IPO today.

I have a nephew that works in Engineering there who's pretty excited about the IPO and things in general..no inside info, though (and wouldn't share if I did).

Seeing pre-open that it's already expected to open at $125+ even though offer price was initially $78/share.

At $78/share, that'd be a $66B market cap - compared to Ford at around $79B and GM at $85B. All that with Q3 revenues projected at ~$1M with a $1B+ net loss.

Seems like RIVN will be one of those stocks that gets totally unmoored from underlying fundamentals and instead is a purely speculative buy - just like Tesla, Amazon, etc.

I'm sitting this out based on "foofy" valuations but will probably regret it..

Not for me. Not to say it can't go up, but I generally stay away from IPO's i hot markets...
 
You are a bit younger than I am (I just turned 78) and I am real nervous about watching this balloon expand. We can't afford a big flame out and if it turns into a "Japan" type situation, the market may stay down for a real long time. That's why I am 30% in equities right now and struggling to make anything with the fixed portion. We are safe for whatever happens as the house is paid for and we have no other debt.

I don't have the stomach to buy into high priced stocks with 900 P/E ratios or crypto. what I (we all) see going on is completely nuts and it ever unwinds and the FED can't stop it, good luck to all.

I think I will be safe, no matter what happens because my WR is now very low. Even if my stash is down to 25c on the dollar, the WR is still under 4%.

I still like to make more. It's a challenge. I have had a 7-figure gain in 12 months, without buying any of the high P/E stocks, let alone the no-sales ones. I have never owned Apple, MS, FB, or Google, the so-called FAANG stocks. I made money without them, paid no attention to IPOs, and keep up with the S&P while not being 100% in stock, and not owning any of the above stocks. It takes some work, but I enjoy it.

While I still have fun, I don't want to quit. But I really need to watch out for signs of trouble. Having been through a few severe crises while being an active investor and stock picker, I will face the next market downturn and will not run from it. This time, I have a lot more at my disposal. My cash now is at a 7-figure level, and higher than my entire stash at the bottom of the subprime crisis. I will not be complacent though. This is what makes life interesting.
 
Hah! Did this guy think the world had only 7 thousand people, instead of 7 billion people? Or he did not know what a billion is?

Musk would need 22 quadrillion in order to give everyone 3 million, instead of just 3 bucks.


:LOL:



Most people are not used to that many zeros behind a number. Me included. Had to triple check when calculating RIVN and TSLA in my previous post here. :D
 
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