FDA Approves Booster Shot for People with Weakened Immune Systems

I’ve participated in an ongoing antibody test being done here in Texas. Received In the mail an update on results so far. Attached is a picture of the key findings in what they sent.

IMG_9708.jpg
 
What is the source of that document?

A university? A hospital? A public agency like the state dept. of health?
 
It’s from a study being done by a doctor out of Childrens Medical Center in Dallas. Obviously not limited to children in the study. The group is called Texas Cares
 
DW & I are going to now wait until after T'giving. We just want to make sure we are all set by Xmas. We probably should have slightly fibbed and got them earlier. Our T'giving plans are with 100% vaccinated family.
 
We fibbed to sign up friday night, but by then it was just because the enrollment systems hadn't yet caught up with the new directives. DH and I both got our 3rd jabs yesterday.

Same as last time, I'm fine (just feel punched in the arm), he's a bit wobbly.
 
I'm about all recovered from 3rd jab.

For me, booster was as rough as the 2nd jab. Similar side effects but milder. Only a very slight fever.
 
There is very little information available on the benefits or disadvantages of booster for anyone who has already received 3 doses of an effective vaccine. In my case, 1 Novavax (phase 2 trial) and 2 Pfizer.

Does vaccine effectiveness depend purely on time since most recent dose or is there a cumulative effect that results in longer lasting immunity?

I suspect a bit of each so haven't been in a rush to get the booster even though it's been nearly 7 months since the second Pfizer dose.

All close family members have already received the booster and I'm fairly cautious so will probably postpone til early next year unless some new development intervenes.

On the other hand, is there really any downside to getting a second booster early? Flip a coin?
 
A softball player I know over the internet came down with Covid 17 months ago. The other day he was tested and still has antibodies and was never vaccinated. Curious about the state of antibodies in those who were vaccinated early. Wonder if being infected is better than being vaccinated?
 
DFW_M5 said:
A softball player I know over the internet came down with Covid 17 months ago. The other day he was tested and still has antibodies and was never vaccinated. Curious about the state of antibodies in those who were vaccinated early. Wonder if being infected is better than being vaccinated?
Click to expand...

The antibody levels of those who get infected and recover vary from individual to individual.

The levels from those vaccinated are more consistent.


In both cases, antibodies wane to low levels after 6 months.
 
RetMD21 said:
Thanks. Any indication that the Moderna provided more protection?
Click to expand...
It's not clear to me if you're asking about the Moderna vaccine relative to the other vaccines, or about a Moderna booster. Data have shown that a smaller percentage of fully-vaccinated Moderna recipients have gotten breakthrough infections compared to Pfizer & JnJ recipients. Examples come from data from the District of Columbia and from Oklahoma, both of which publish excellent detailed Covid data.

https://coronavirus.dc.gov/data/vaccination Scroll down a little bit and click on "Breakthrough Cases" on the right side. As of Nov. 15, 2021, among fully-vaccinated DC residents, 0.93% Moderna recipients have had breakthrough cases, 1.35% Pfizer recipients, and 2.40% JnJ recipients.

Oklahoma: https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok...y-epi-report/2021.09.29 Weekly Epi Report.pdf Scroll to page 9. The data were last updated on Sept. 26, 2021. The relative percentages of new cases among fully-vaccinated Oklahomans are fairly similar to DC.

DFW_M5 said:
Curious about the state of antibodies in those who were vaccinated early. Wonder if being infected is better than being vaccinated?
Click to expand...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/11/01/what-works-better-vaccines-or-natural-immunity/


"In comparing the two types of immunity, scientists said research shows vaccination provides a “higher, more robust, and more consistent level of immunity to protect people from COVID-19 than infection alone.” "

Page 10 of the Oklahoma data I linked to above has data for both re-infection cases and breakthrough cases. There has been a far greater percentage of re-infection cases relative to breakthrough cases in Oklahoma. In July, August, & September of this year, the ratio has been about 2:1 .
 
anethum said:
It's not clear to me if you're asking about the Moderna vaccine relative to the other vaccines, or about a Moderna booster. Data have shown that a smaller percentage of fully-vaccinated Moderna recipients have gotten breakthrough infections compared to Pfizer & JnJ recipients.
Click to expand...

Just got my Moderna booster 3 hours ago and I'm killing time, waiting for side effects.

In my group of friends, I know a few who had breakthroughs from Pfizer, but only 1 for Moderna. My Pfizer breakthrough friend's case is a story for a different thread.

My Moderna breakthrough friend's story is interesting. He was very concerned about COVID and would not participate in any activities that involved being near people. He has risk factors, so he wanted to be careful. He's one of my good buddies that I do disaster recovery work with, and he refused to see me in 2020. He talked a lot about not spreading the disease, etc. He got his second Moderna vax in March and we started reconnecting.

He had a breakthrough case 5 months later in August. But he didn't know it! He was interacting with people, going to the pool swimming, etc. He said he thought he had alergies, but didn't feel bad at all. Then his son called to tell him he had COVID, and since my friend was playing with the grandson, he better get checked. He tested positive. He never would have known since his case was so very mild.
 
Last edited:
I had no reaction to the J&J but a minor reaction to the Moderna. Headache that night & arm sore all night / next day. Initially sorry I got it but it went away. Better than getting covid. Grandkids laugh at me & tell me I'm a wuss
 
DFW_M5 said:
A softball player I know over the internet came down with Covid 17 months ago. The other day he was tested and still has antibodies and was never vaccinated. Curious about the state of antibodies in those who were vaccinated early. Wonder if being infected is better than being vaccinated?
Click to expand...

A study linked in post 852 of this thread, one page back, states:

"Unvaccinated individuals with a previous infection have lower levels of antibodies to the spike protein compared to fully vaccinated individuals."

The full report and site is here: https://sph.uth.edu/projects/texascares/
 
Aerides said:
A study linked in post 852 of this thread, one page back, states:

"Unvaccinated individuals with a previous infection have lower levels of antibodies to the spike protein compared to fully vaccinated individuals."

The full report and site is here: https://sph.uth.edu/projects/texascares/
Click to expand...

The immune system is complex. I'm hoping a portion of all this money devoted to COVID research is going to measuring the harder to test aspects such as T and B cells, and all the other "stuff" that only immunologists can clearly understand. Hopefully, an understanding of natural and vaccine responses can be studied and acted upon without political theater.

For what it is worth: at 7 months I measured antibody positive with the Moderna sequence. My friend went negative at 5 months with the Pfizer vaccine. We did not get titer numbers, we just got +/-. This was through a local blood bank test. He got the booster 6 weeks ago, partly based on this. I got mine today based on the recent approvals.
 
We are both under 65 y.o. and got our Moderna booster this morning. So far, just site muscle pain. The second Pfizer injection made me very lethargic the next day, so we shall wait and see. We are very happy to have become eligible for the booster shot.
 
anethum said:
It's not clear to me if you're asking about the Moderna vaccine relative to the other vaccines, or about a Moderna booster. Data have shown that a smaller percentage of fully-vaccinated Moderna recipients have gotten breakthrough infections compared to Pfizer & JnJ recipients. Examples come from data from the District of Columbia and from Oklahoma, both of which publish excellent detailed Covid data.

https://coronavirus.dc.gov/data/vaccination Scroll down a little bit and click on "Breakthrough Cases" on the right side. As of Nov. 15, 2021, among fully-vaccinated DC residents, 0.93% Moderna recipients have had breakthrough cases, 1.35% Pfizer recipients, and 2.40% JnJ recipients.
Click to expand...

So relative risk of breakthrough by vaccine

Moderna 1
Pfizer 1.45
JNJ 2.58


Although adults with any of the vaccines are eligible and should IMO get boosters it seems based on these data that the initial Moderna series was much better.
 
explanade said:
The antibody levels of those who get infected and recover vary from individual to individual.

The levels from those vaccinated are more consistent.


In both cases, antibodies wane to low levels after 6 months.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I was fully vaccinated in April. I donated blood in late October. The end of last week I received a letter from the Red Cross about my blood testing positive for antibodies, they had me fill out a detailed survey and said they might have me provide a followup sample to measure my antibody levels again. I am scheduled to get a booster in early December, so this will be interesting :).
 
audreyh1 said:
The much larger dose made a difference?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that yes, it is thought that it likely is the larger dose in Moderna, plus waiting 1 extra week before the second dose. Apparently waiting a bit longer results in a more robust immune response.
 
RetMD21 said:
So relative risk of breakthrough by vaccine

Moderna 1
Pfizer 1.45
JNJ 2.58

Although adults with any of the vaccines are eligible and should IMO get boosters it seems based on these data that the initial Moderna series was much better.
Click to expand...

Well, it's complicated. The Oklahoma data is similar to DC's but not identical. Based on the numbers in the link I provided, there were 30% more breakthrough cases in OK among Pfizer recipients than Moderna. There were 194% more cases among JnJ recipients than Moderna.

One thing which is unexplained regarding the DC data is that DC includes breakthrough cases that are "confirmed" cases, as well as "self-reported" cases. Both were totaled to give the percentages published. For unknown reasons, there was a much higher percentage of self-reported cases among Pfizer & JnJ recipients than Moderna. I discussed this with a physician friend who works in a DC hospital, and he couldn't think of any explanation. I have to wonder if there have been more Moderna cases which weren't self-reported, but if so, why?


audreyh1 said:
The much larger dose made a difference?
Click to expand...

Well, that's complicated, too. I've read that there is some speculation that the additional week between Moderna shots compared to Pfizer shots in the US could have been beneficial. I know that in Canada, those recommended time periods were bypassed in favor of getting as many 1st doses in arms as possible. That strategy may have paid off.

The current new infection rate in Canada is much lower than in the US, and that includes US states in New England which have vaccination rates nearly as high as those than in Canada. New case rates have exploded throughout US states along the Canadian border as the weather has gotten colder, regardless of the vaccination levels of the states. Many highly vaccinated US states also have high percentages of adults who have already received boosters, too (over 31% of vaccinated Vermonters have already received a booster shot). But the new case rate throughout Canada has stayed low as it's gotten colder, unlike in the US or central Europe. I believe that proof of vaccination is required to enter most indoor facilities in at least some Canadian provinces, including Ontario and Quebec.

As for the dose differences, my understanding is that the Phase I and Phase II trials were, among other things, intended to determine the optimal dosage. I don't know enough about how the Moderna vaccine is made compared to how the Pfizer vaccine is made, to know what the actual volume of vaccine in each dose may indicate.
 
I found some slightly newer data from Oklahoma, thru Oct. 11:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok...y-epi-report/2021.10.13 Weekly Epi Report.pdf

From these data, the percentage of Pfizer breakthrough cases was 127% of Moderna. JnJ was 194% of Moderna. The percentage of breakthrough case deaths, while extremely low for all 3 vaccines, was lower for Moderna than Pfizer, which was lower than JnJ.

Oklahoma publishes data weekly but the reports published after the one above do not have the breakthrough case data broken out by vaccine type at this time.

Something else I hadn't thought about earlier is that there may have been more people who were becoming fully vaccinated sooner with Pfizer than with the other 2 vaccines, so there would have been more vaccine waning time for Pfizer recipients than for the other 2 vaccines. I don't remember how quickly each vaccine maker was able to ramp up their production. But it's another factor to consider.
 
anethum said:
I found some slightly newer data from Oklahoma, thru Oct. 11:

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/covid19/documents/weekly-epi-report/2021.10.13%20Weekly%20Epi%20Report.pdf

...

Something else I hadn't thought about earlier is that there may have been more people who were becoming fully vaccinated sooner with Pfizer than with the other 2 vaccines, so there would have been more vaccine waning time for Pfizer recipients than for the other 2 vaccines. I don't remember how quickly each vaccine maker was able to ramp up their production. But it's another factor to consider.
Click to expand...

Oh man, that OK data is a data hoarder's dream! Cool stuff. You bring up an important point, however, in just parsing such data in isolation. The "time since vaccinated" could very well have an effect when you take this raw OK data and cut it.

The best breakthrough studies normalize for "time since fully vaccinated" and were still finding Moderna had a slight edge. Here's one non-scholarly source and an isolated data set of MN data, graphed, from a link in the article if you want to dig deeper:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/moderna-vs-pfizer-is-there-a-best-mrna-vaccine-69229
mrna-vaccine-infection-comparison-o.jpg


Yesterday when I was getting my booster, the pharmacist chatted with us. We were grouped in cohorts of 4. He actually got 2 people to switch vaccines (to Moderna) based on this. But then he had bunch of caveats and said: "We know so little, this will still be studied in depth 10 years from now." With that I agree.
 
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