Bathroom Renovation - Contractor Screwup

[HarveyS]

If your shower is a simple square or rectangle, you can easily check for square by measuring diagonals between opposite corners. If the diagonals match, then it’s square.

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+1

Easy measurement. If they don't match, you have a parallelogram -- which from the tile work looks like the problem. Unfortunately, not uncommon.

Years ago a buddy of mine was having a 2 car detached garage added to his property. They had staked everything out and built the cement block several courses high and quit for the day. He measured the diagonal and found that the walls were the right length, just not square. The next day the blocks all came out and the new work was done. Lucky he found it before the walls went up....

Also, the drain does not look square either. The right side looks wider than the left.

This work would bug me everyday as well.

As others have said, ask the contractor how to fix before you make suggestions. If he or she is legit they will come up with the right solution.

 

[ERD50]

Well, the bathroom had been demolished down to the studs. The contractor told me that the walls are level, squared and plumbed. But I'll see if I can determine that myself somehow.

Yes, but contractors have a pretty loose tolerance for "level, square, and plumb". Standard 2x4 and normal accepted construction techniques don't really make for precise results.

The floor tiles are small, that is going to make any deviation show. Those tiles look to be just ~ 1/2" on the narrow side (from your OP). So just a 1/4" deviation over the length of the shower is half a tile width, which is going to be very noticeable. You end up with the wedges that you see. And 1/4" over that distance really isn't a lot.

One approach is to use a wider tile around the edge of the floor. Set it straight to the small tiles. The deviation will then be part of the larger tile against the wall. If the larger tile is 3" wide, a 1/4" difference along the wall won't be very noticeable, if at all. The tile goes from 3" to 2.75", a less than 10% difference, instead of 1/2" to 1/4" a 50% difference.

-ERD50

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

If your shower is a simple square or rectangle, you can easily check for square by measuring diagonals between opposite corners. If the diagonals match, then it’s square.

The photo looks like the tile guy put the tile in square to the left edge, and that edge doesn’t look square to the wall.

Thanks for that tip. I measured diagonals between opposite corners. They match.

 

[ERD50]

Found this, which is tighter than I would have thought (but this is deviation across 8' - actual absolute accuracy is quite a bit looser IIRC), but this is what you are dealing with:

https://www.woodworks.org/experttip...lerance-limits-light-frame-wood-construction/

For vertical in-plane wall tolerances (i.e., plumb wall surfaces):

Similarly, the United Facilities Guide Specification (UFGS) suggests a tolerance of 1/4″ in 8ˈ for plumbness of studs when finishes such as wallboard, plaster or ceramic tile set in a mortar bed are used

For horizontal in-plane wall tolerances (i.e., straight wall surfaces):

The UFGS suggests a limit of 1/4″ in 8ˈ for face of framing members from true plane when finishes such as wallboard, plaster or ceramic set in a mortar bed are used.

You should probably search some more, but it gives you something to go on.

-ERD50

 

[Retired Expat]

Not clear if there is a GC overseeing the work or if you hired the subs directly. If you called the tile guy and directed him to start installing then some of this is on you. But get everyone in the room together, tile guy, plumber, contractor who framed the shower, waterproofed doing the shower pan (as removing tile or moving the drain will impact the pan. Get everyone to agree what the plan is going forward and then send a memo to all so it is in writing. Contractors are more likely to fight you then each other as they may work together again

Me? I was a GC licensed in 6 states doing only high end work. My supers and subs wouldn’t have done that. Also common practice and the law usually states that if you install your work on top of or adjacent to another’s you are accepting that the prior work was done properly. So in your case the plumber squats up the drain and the tile guy redoes the tile. If you provided the tile you may have to buy it as you denied the sub his mark up on the tile to cover just these kinds of screw ups

 

[skyking1]

I've been able to hide small dimensional busts by varying grout lines very carefully, and more small tiles provides with more opportunity to do so.
Unfortunately those tiles were in a mat that would not allow for that trick.

 

[REWahoo]

I've been able to hide small dimensional busts by varying grout lines very carefully...

And I was thinking a padded bra was the only way to do that.



...Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[homestead]

If they ripped out the floor and fixed the drain and replaced the floor with an irregular stone floor that would hide the out of square floor.
Or give the contractor a choice of fixing it right or lowering the price substantially.

 

[pb4uski]

And check this out. Here's a photo of the tile work at the wall opposite the drain. You can tell by the pattern that something is off. The contractor assures me the walls are leveled and squared.
View attachment 41665

Yeah, that definitely doesn't look right... and the tile pattern doesn't help.

I agree with pointing it out to contractor, telling them that it doesn't look right and seeing what they have to say about it... but it doesn't look right to me.

 

[momoftwo]

We had a full bath Reno almost 2 years ago. Love the new stall shower that replaced the tub.
We chose similar tile for the floor of the shower and the entire room.
It is striking. You will love yours too

I couldn't accept mislaid tiles. Not after spending 28k for the Reno. My eye would never stop finding the error.

The fix might not be as difficult for the pro as you imagine.
Our new shower plumbing includes a rainfall head and a separate hand held spray that mounts onto a vertical rod next to the faucet. The installer placed the rod too close to where the glass door would be located.
I tried to convince myself it would be fine. Was unsuccessful.
I asked the tile guy for remedies.
He said no problem. He unscrewed the bar from the tiled wall and repositioned it a few inches to the right.
Then he magically inserted new tile pieces into the spaces where the he had dug out the screws holding the rod.
There is no evidence of the tile repositioning.

Hoping you find a satisfactory solution.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

Considering we have a contract, if the contractor refuses to fix the problem, would I be able to fire this contractor to hire another to fix the problem?

Not saying that's what I'll do, but it's good to know what my options are.

 

[Badger]

It seems as though the tile setter did a poor job for at least two reasons. If the floor is really square it shows he did not do a proper job. The tile should have been set running parallel to the far wall (the side you see when looking at the shower) and the side that is perpendicular that you see when first walking into the bathroom. Then if there is a slight discrepancy it will not be as noticeable on the other walls.
He also should have matched the tile alignment in the center of the drain to the pattern on the floor.
I would want a more experienced tile setter.


Cheers!

 

[zinger1457]

Considering we have a contract, if the contractor refuses to fix the problem, would I be able to fire this contractor to hire another to fix the problem?

Not saying that's what I'll do, but it's good to know what my options are.

If you're unable to resolve it with the contractor you can file a complaint with your local Registrar of Contractors. Most issues get fixed through mediation, if not it can take a very long time to get a judgement, took me almost a year the one time I had to go that route but did use another contractor to finish the job.
Don't really think it's the tiling guys fault if the drain was installed crooked, nothing he could have done to make it look square, maybe he should have called it out before starting his work. Sounds like the only option is tearing up the floor and squaring the drain then re-tiling.

 

[donheff]

Tough one. I just redid the bathroom with a walk in shower like you. I would barely notice the tile offset and would let it go as long as the drain worked properly. But, if it bugs you, it bugs you. We had a house built decades ago with a hot tub on a step down deck from the main deck. It was supposed to be two steps down but when I came to see progress they had built it one step down and had the tub on blocks to raise it to the right height. It looked way different that what I had in mind. I had them rebuild the whole section properly and it looked great.

 

[Music Lover]

Found this, which is tighter than I would have thought (but this is deviation across 8' - actual absolute accuracy is quite a bit looser IIRC), but this is what you are dealing with:

https://www.woodworks.org/experttip...lerance-limits-light-frame-wood-construction/


You should probably search some more, but it gives you something to go on.

-ERD50

That refers to vertical in plane tolerances. I may be wrong but that sounds like surface deviations which are relatively easy to fix simply by using more or less thinset to even it out.

If the wall or floor is not square that's a different problem, and the smaller the tile used the harder it is to hide.

 

[Ronstar]

That refers to vertical in plane tolerances. I may be wrong but that sounds like surface deviations which are relatively easy to fix simply by using more or less thinset to even it out.

If the wall or floor is not square that's a different problem, and the smaller the tile used the harder it is to hide.

Usually, the bowed walls are fixed before wallboard goes on by slicing/ splicing the individual studs that are bowed.

 

[Music Lover]

Usually, the bowed walls are fixed before wallboard goes on by slicing/ splicing the individual studs that are bowed.

I did that at my friend's house (new build...long story). I never would have used crooked studs in the first place but I wasn't the builder. There are plenty of places that are hidden or require short pieces where they could have been used.

 

[ERD50]

That refers to vertical in plane tolerances. I may be wrong but that sounds like surface deviations which are relatively easy to fix simply by using more or less thinset to even it out.

If the wall or floor is not square that's a different problem, and the smaller the tile used the harder it is to hide.

I think you are right (though one is horiz, one is vertical). But maybe that also applies to out of square by that much over that distance? I don't know.

Agree on the small tiles (I mentioned earlier), that makes it critical. All the more reason the tile setter should have pointed out any out of square that was out of his control.

edit/add: The talk of narrow tiles reminds me, we had a kitchen floor tiled many years ago. 12" tiles. I asked if they could do really narrow grout lines. The installer calmly pointed out that tiles this size will vary slightly in size (and showed me a few), they shrink a bit more or less when fired. So a narrow grout line will make those differences very noticeable. He was right of course, and we stuck to the wider grout lines. So that's an example where the installer points the potential problems out before they are 'set in stone'. The same applies to small tiles and deviations. It's going to show.

-ERD50

 

[pb4uski]

If you're unable to resolve it with the contractor you can file a complaint with your local Registrar of Contractors. Most issues get fixed through mediation, if not it can take a very long time to get a judgement, took me almost a year the one time I had to go that route but did use another contractor to finish the job.
Don't really think it's the tiling guys fault if the drain was installed crooked, nothing he could have done to make it look square, maybe he should have called it out before starting his work. Sounds like the only option is tearing up the floor and squaring the drain then re-tiling.

Yeah, from the picture in post 26, the tile guy should have flagged the issue early and either had the drain adjusted and also checked that the shower floor was square.

If you do have the floor taken out and redone, and the shower floor isn't square, then I would go with a different tile that doesn't have such a discernable pattern like a pebble pattern or something like that.

 

[OldShooter]

@Vincenzo Corleone, this thread makes me smile a little bit. It's like watching a pinball game -- balls going every which way, speculation piled on speculation.

IMO your first step should be this: Contact your general contractor, tell him (unemotionally) that there is a problem with the shower and ask him to stop by to see it and discuss. (It is up to him to deal with subs like the plumber and the tile guy.) Then when he comes, show him the problem and explain briefly and unemotionally your concern. Then stop talking and wait to see what he says. Stay quiet until he talks. If what he says is unsatisfactory, briefly tell him that and that you want to think about next steps. Bid him adieu. Do not argue or let things get inflamed. (Relevant proverb: Do not kick today that which you may have to kiss tomorrow.)

Re the payment clause on the warranty, the time to argue about that is before the contract is signed. Had I read that in a contract that was offered to me I would have drawn a crossout line over the sentence and put my initials next to the paragraph. Odds are I'll be able to negotiate it away, but that is the first step.

 

[Music Lover]

Yeah, from the picture in post 26, the tile guy should have flagged the issue early and either had the drain adjusted and also checked that the shower floor was square.

I agree. A competent tile layer should have spotted the issue before the first tile was laid and brought it up at that time. No matter how good of a job that they do, it will look wrong if the drain is crooked. They can't win.

 

[Vincenzo Corleone]

I agree. A competent tile layer should have spotted the issue before the first tile was laid and brought it up at that time. No matter how good of a job that they do, it will look wrong if the drain is crooked. They can't win.

In this case, the tile guy is the GC's brother who is the one who set the linear drain. Although I have no proof, I'm convinced they colluded in an effort to hide the GC's drain screwup.

 

[zinger1457]

What is the GC's response to your complaint? That will determine the next step you need to take.

 

[ERD50]

Usually, the bowed walls are fixed before wallboard goes on by slicing/ splicing the individual studs that are bowed.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41668&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1643728675

I wonder how many times a routine framing carpenter (not working on super-high end stuff) has ever done that. I never recall seeing a shim added to fix a bow (clever fix though).

More likely, if the stud is bowed, they send it back for credit, or cut it for where shorter pieces are needed, or as a jack stud, where they can nail it to two straight studs to pull the bow out, or anywhere else they could 'sister' it..

-ERD50

 

[RobbieB]

Send it back for credit? Really? It comes off 18 wheelers on pallets.