The Electric Vehicle Thread

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Kind of surprising but Tesla was discounting aggressively so some people might have gone YOLO and decided to pay more for the Y than the 3 that they might have been looking at.
I'm a Tesla fan to be sure, but there's nothing surprising about it. Tesla inventories, including M3 & and especially MY, climbed dramatically in Nov/Dec 2022, and they had to do something. Evidently they tapped out everyone who would pay $64K for an M3P, $66K for a MYLR or $70K for a MYP. With no tax credit at the time, in Jan they had to cut prices or curtail production. They have said for years they would adjust pricing to match (increasing) production. So far they're still profitable without curbing production. Time will tell.
 
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The $20,000 price drop for the Y did factor into my decision to pick it over the 3, but the larger rear seat room and AWD vs rear wheel 3 also did. If the AWD 3 was an option and noticeable cheaper than Y it might have been picked.

Another way of looking at it, I had just bought new tires for my old Acura and was hoping to squeeze another year out of it, but the Y at $20,000 less pushed me to move before the supposed march deadline for the tax credit.

I figured that once the credit was figured out Tesla would raise the price of the Y, but I guess the interest rate on car loans forces them to keep the low pricing.
 
Kind of surprising but Tesla was discounting aggressively so some people might have gone YOLO and decided to pay more for the Y than the 3 that they might have been looking at.

I wouldn't think it's sustainable though.

Not even the slightest bit surprised. Elon already said this was going to happen a year or two ago... That Model Y would be the number #1 selling vehicle by revenue and then by volume.

Over the years, so many people are repeatedly surprised by Tesla's achievements, but if one just listens to what they guide for, you'd rarely be surprised.

The best way to predict the future is to create it.
 
I can't see why people would choose a hybrid given there aren't that many advantages of the hybrid vehicle over a simple gasoline vehicle while there are downsides of carrying two drivetrains where neither of them are very good (small, underpowered ICE combined with a too-small HV battery electric drivetrain).

I live somewhat over 100 miles from Washington, DC and would have to choose a hybrid or an ICE vehicle because an EV is not yet practical for a driver who takes long trips into rural areas around here.

My guess that it's about two years away from practicality for me at any price, though I may age out of long-distance driving before I can afford an EV suitable for such trips.
 
I do think there should be punitive consequences to deter copy-cats (and there were copy-cats in BMW and Mercedes), but even without a punitive component, the cost to mitigate and reverse even a tiny fraction of the environmental and health damage on a global level is more than enough to bankrupt them several times over. These highly-polluting vehicles are STILL operating all over the world. Recalls, repairs, fines, and enforcement of these actions have been laughable. Part of this is because stricter enforcement would inconvenience the consumers who purchased them, and there would need to be enough resources to compensate them, which we don't have without extracting/demanding more from VW, which governments have seemingly refused to do so.

The health consequences are still with us. The environmental impacts are still with us. And looking at the market cap of VW Group, basically, they got off 100% scot-free. And they were then rewarded with this forced "re-inventing" of their line-up to include EVs... Without that, they would probably be where Toyota is today with their crappy EV position or worse.

Have you looked at the costs to VW or are you just assuming there were none? Last I heard there were arrests both here and and Germany. And the last dollar value I saw was that it was costing them over $30 billion.

Destroying companies does no good. They are one of the biggest employers in Germany. Contrast that to what our auto policies (CAFE) did to GM, Ford, and Chrysler about 50 years ago. For the ramifications check out Flint, Detroit, and who knows how many other American cities.
 
Have you looked at the costs to VW or are you just assuming there were none? Last I heard there were arrests both here and and Germany. And the last dollar value I saw was that it was costing them over $30 billion.

Destroying companies does no good. They are one of the biggest employers in Germany. Contrast that to what our auto policies (CAFE) did to GM, Ford, and Chrysler about 50 years ago. For the ramifications check out Flint, Detroit, and who knows how many other American cities.

Again, I personally feel that they should be penalized, but even without a penalization component, the costs to mitigate and compensate everyone that was negatively affected by the scandal would've easily bankrupted them. So, whether I think they should be "destroyed" or not would not have been relevant.

They are not a "good company..." (as was mentioned here) Geez, can't believe I need to spell this out. (I'm not directing this to you personally. I'm just a bit frustrated that there is such a lack of understanding of the scale, the recklessness, and the boldness of VW.) And their size and importance to the German economy and the German government is EXACTLY the problem. It gave VW executives comfort in knowing that they could do whatever they wanted and there would be little to no consequences. How else could we explain it?

VW very intentionally developed and sold products globally that were designed to cheat on emissions tests. They designed them to emit dangerous levels of nitrogen oxides. They knew the adverse environmental consequences. They knew the adverse health consequences. They knew the economic consequences of their unfair practices. They knew. And they had the gall to call it "clean diesel" not only with a straight face, but with an entire multi-year ad campaign that boasted their achievement while touting it as an alternative to hybrid and electric vehicles. They boasted that their Audi A3 TDI won the "green car of the year" award. Look at and watch those old ads -- it makes me sick.

They did this for over half a decade! And then, when they were caught cheating, they were bold enough to completely stonewall investigations, block inquiries, and mislead regulators... effectively stalling for years. All the while, they kept selling these vehicles. What gives them the brazenness to not only cheat despite actual harm to actual human beings, but to stall investigations when they were caught? This is not just financial fraud (which it is) like the Wirecard scandal, but actual harm to human health.

They have spent $30B+ so far on this. These are basically fees & fines, and lawsuits settlements. But there have been little to no spending to compensate all of the deaths and human-years of suffering due to illness that they have caused. As real as the damage and suffering are, these will only be seen in aggregate statistically, so it's easy for them to ignore. Nor was there any spending for the environmental damage caused not only from the vehicle emissions themselves, but the after-effects of the recall and early disposal of vehicles, or loss of sales to actual "cleaner/greener" vehicles. What have they done to right the wrongs? They haven't even ensured that every affected vehicle is taken off the road or fixed. It's going to take a LOT more than $30B to even come close to fixing this in a fair way. After the scandal was exposed, the entire VW group had a market cap of only ~$50B... Damn right that should've been the end of the company right there and then. Instead, they were basically given a clean slate as a leading EV manufacturer. Even their stupid initiative in Electrify America is an unreliable mess that's bringing shame to EV charging infrastructure and makes EVs look bad -- inconvenient & unreliable on road trips. And other manufacturers were guilty of this too... but to a much lesser degree (lesser in terms of the the degree of cheating, the number of vehicles involved, and the boldness of their lies).. These other companies were also essentially given a free pass. :mad:

And their executives? Sure, some executives were sentenced and fined. But Winterkorn? He's still a fugitive. :mad::mad:

VW's ties to the German government, and the German auto industry's importance to the German economy basically ensured from the start that VW would not see the proper consequences when this blew over. They knew that. That's why they were so bold. Remember this all started right after the American government proved to the world that "too big to fail" is a thing in 2008. VW announced "Clean Diesel" in 2008. I suspect that they looked at themselves and saw their connections and importance to Germany and thought it was a no-lose situation. Probably just a conspiracy theory, but it's really hard to simply dismiss knowing all of the crazy things that have surfaced in the last few years globally.

And let's look at another case: Takata went completely bankrupt. I know it's about 20 times smaller by market cap. But their airbags had an unintentional defect... Some of their executives were arrested, charged, and imprisoned for falsifying test data to hide the airbag defect after the fact. But the company didn't go out of their way to design an airbag to kill its end-customers from the outset... VW essentially did just that.
 
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The stupid picture is an attempt to lighten up the very serious discussion. :flowers:

In all seriousness, now that I have an older, larger vehicle, I am starting to really feel the costs of maintenance and compliance.

The transmission on the larger Hondas (Pilot, Odyssey) needs careful care and feeding, which is done with transmission drain and refill. It isn't cheap. Even DYI, the manufacturer fluid costs $50 minimum.

Same for oil changes on a larger engine. Not trivial these days.

Then on older cars like I have, you start running into emissions compliance. OBDII won't let you ignore it, it will throw a Check Engine light. This may mean something like replacing a catalytic converter, which is not cheap.

I'm not ready for an EV yet. I'm waiting for the infrastructure to catch up. I am looking forward to buying one, probably about 5 years from now, and no small part will be engine maintenance. I thought a hybrid would be a good step. I think I'd rather wait for things to mature and go right to pure EV.
 
I'm not ready for an EV yet. I'm waiting for the infrastructure to catch up. I am looking forward to buying one, probably about 5 years from now, and no small part will be engine maintenance. I thought a hybrid would be a good step. I think I'd rather wait for things to mature and go right to pure EV.
We’re on our 4th hybrid, they’ve all been great, kept one of them for 11 years. I’m beyond ready to buy a Tesla, waiting to order is driving me nuts. I will charge at home almost entirely, like most EV owners, so infrastructure isn’t an issue for us like most homeowners. We would have an EV and a hybrid, so infrastructure is a non issue. Tesla chargers are a different world than all the others.
 
The transmission on the larger Hondas (Pilot, Odyssey) needs careful care and feeding, which is done with transmission drain and refill. It isn't cheap. Even DYI, the manufacturer fluid costs $50 minimum.

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I'm not ready for an EV yet. I'm waiting for the infrastructure to catch up. I am looking forward to buying one, probably about 5 years from now, and no small part will be engine maintenance. I thought a hybrid would be a good step. I think I'd rather wait for things to mature and go right to pure EV.

The fluid cost for a CVT drain and fill on a Subaru is over $150. The company's claim that it's a "lifetime fluid" is not to be believed. Aftermarket fluid doesn't save much money and requires caution in getting the right product.

https://www.amazon.com/Subaru-Genuine-CVTF-II-Transmission-Quarts/dp/B09S7RNWK8

IIRC, you are in the Southern US, as I am. I agree that the infrastructure isn't there yet in this part of the country. There's a lot of reliance on a single charging facility being working, with the alternative being to call a tow truck, even for Tesla.

Tesla is very close with infrastructure, but having done work in human factors before retirement, I am very uncomfortable about their attitude towards driving assistance/self driving, as well as the touchscreen interface.
 
It really comes down to the long trip thing (we like to drive cross-country from time to time), and also to my visits to far away reaches of rural NC.

I'd like DW to get an EV since she mostly drives city, but she doesn't want to. We'll continue to discuss.
 
Tesla is very close with infrastructure, but having done work in human factors before retirement, I am very uncomfortable about their attitude towards driving assistance/self driving, as well as the touchscreen interface.

If you don't mind, which part of Virginia are you taking about?

Also if you don't mind, what is your concern with the touch screen interface? I think I can confirm or alleviate some of your concerns. In many cases, the touchscreen interface makes it safer to operate than a non-touchscreen interface. I've had over 10 years of hands on experience with Tesla's UI and watched it evolve into what it is today. It's not all good, but they are generally heading in the right direction... Mostly. I also have experience with both the single-screen UI of the 3/Y in addition to the dual (and triple)-screen UI of the S/X since I own most variations of these vehicles, so I can also detail any differences if that's relevant.
 
Tesla is very close with infrastructure, but having done work in human factors before retirement, I am very uncomfortable about their attitude towards driving assistance/self driving, as well as the touchscreen interface.
I [-]am[/-] was a little uncomfortable with relying on the touchscreen so much, but I am over it for two reasons.
  • In retrospect, I almost never touch 80% of the knobs and switches in any car I've owned. Most of them I set as I like, and won't touch again for years. If you go sit in your current car, and review each knob/switch, how many do you almost never touch after the first time?
  • For controls I do use more often, I would expect to use voice commands for most of them. I have been using voice commands on my '18 Outback, '19 Accord and '22 Santa Fe more and more, and each model year gets better and better. The Outback rarely understood voice commands (almost useless), the Accord usually understands but it insists on a tree structure (e.g. Navigation>Find Place>name place) so multiple commands for some tasks. The Santa Fe works MUCH better, almost never gets a command wrong (e.g. Find Dick's Sporting Goods, and it shows them all). As I understand it, voice commands on Teslas are almost conversational - versus having to know key words.
YMMV
 
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I just saw this video from a fellow who has posted many excellent technical articles. He points out that in the one-pedal driving mode, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 will decelerate from 60 mph to a stop in 13 seconds. That's a deceleration of 1/4 G and quite rapid.

Yet, because the driver does not use the brake pedal, the car brake lights do not turn on!

That's bad. I am surprised there have not been more rear-ending accidents. If this happens, do we blame the following driver for not paying attention? Maybe it's OK if the car behind is a newer type with forward-collision avoidance + automatic emergency braking?

This fellow makes an excellent argument that the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) is way behind the current technology, and has not been able to formulate new updated guidance and regulations.

 
No time to watch video.

So hold on a second, Hyundai doesn't illuminate the brake in the regenerative phase? I thought Tesla does. No?
 
It's my understanding the brake lights do come on whenever a Tesla is braking, whether the driver is using the brake pedal or not. The brake lights brighten on the display while the brakes are on as well. I'm also told Federal regulations specify a rate of deceleration that must trigger the brake lights so it's not an option for Tesla to make it optional - but I did not find the reg.

I watched the video, and the summary above isn't quite accurate. Even with the Hyundai, the brake lights do come on with regen braking if the driver lets off the accelerator completely (and not pressing the brake pedal). Only when the driver is slowing while feathering the accelerator will the brake lights not come on maybe. Whether other makes have this issue or not I don't know. I'm not sure why someone would be pressing the accelerator if they're slowing the vehicle...
 
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On the Chevy Bolt and Bolt EUV, brake lights illuminate when in one-pedal driving mode, pressure is reduced on the accelerator, and the g-sensor detects a deceleration of 0.2G or more. On later year models (2020? or newer) the brake light remains illuminated after the car comes to a complete stop, even if the brake pedal is not used.
 
Yet, because the driver does not use the brake pedal, the car brake lights do not turn on!
It depends on the manufacturer I suppose. Tesla absolutely turns on the brake lights when you are slowing due to regenerative braking. Even in the case where you lift up on the accelerator to reduce speed, but don’t take your foot completely off. And brake lights are on in “Hold” which is coming to a complete stop like while waiting at a light, but not in park.
 
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I never found anything weird about being behind an EV. Brake lights seem to "work" fine.

Now let's talk about the bozos who ride the brake while using their accelerator in ICE cars. Maybe EVs are smart and start ringing bells and blowing whistles when someone makes this stupid move? I hope so.
 
The Youtuber owns the Ioniq 5 where he discovered the serious deficiency. He did notice that if he took his foot off the accelerator completely, the brake lights would go on.

However, the purpose of the "one-pedal" mode is that you can cause moderate braking, and not use the conventional pedal braking at all. Hence, if you don't need to brake harder than 0.25G deceleration, your foot will stay on the accelerator. And the brake lights will not be on.

How hard is a 1/4 G deceleration? Watch the video, and you will see that in most daily driving, people do not usually exceed this.

This fellow goes into the actual wording of the NHTSA regulations. And he shows that the Ioniq 5 operation is permissible under the antiquated regulations with its brake lights off.

He also looks at the EU regulations. Both the US and EU regulations were inadequate, but the EU new revision has addressed this issue as of March 2023. One has to watch the video if he is curious to know the details.

Regarding other EVs, this fellow mainly addresses his own Ioniq 5. The only other EV he mentions is the GM Bolt, which uses an accelerometer to turn on the brake light when a certain level of deceleration is detected.

I agree with him that the use of an accelerometer is not even needed, although accelerometers are cheap and one may be included for monitoring purposes. The car computer controls the regen, and it knows how much deceleration it is causing. You only need to program the brake light operation properly.
 
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The Youtuber owns the Ioniq 5 where he discovered the serious deficiency. He did notice that if he took his foot off the accelerator completely, the brake lights would go on.

However, the purpose of the "one-pedal" mode is that you can cause moderate braking, and not use the conventional pedal braking at all. Hence, if you don't need to brake harder than 0.25G deceleration, your foot will stay on the accelerator. And the brake lights will not be on.

How hard is a 1/4 G deceleration? Watch the video, and you will see that in most daily driving, people do not usually exceed this.
Have you tried one pedal driving a Tesla or any other EV? I have driven a MY in one pedal mode, 84% of owners prefer it. Again, how often do you brake and press the accelerator in any car? Never in an ICE vehicle that I know of. I’m not saying there’s no issue, but for you to say “because the driver does not use the brake pedal, the car brake lights do not turn on” is simply false for even the Ioniq 5. I’ve followed hundreds of Teslas into stops and never been surprised…have you?

You have the last word if you want it, I’m done…
 
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This is not the 1st time that you completely miscomprehended what I wrote. :LOL:

I was tempted to ignore it, but felt compelled to point the following out.


Have you tried one pedal driving a Tesla or any other EV? I have driven a MY in one pedal mode, 84% of owners prefer it...

Did I say that "one-pedal" driving is bad? The Youtuber loved this mode in his Ioniq 5, and said that Huyndai implemented this mode very well. You said that you watched the video. You missed this apparently. :)

The problem is not with the "one-pedal" driving mode. It's the Ioniq 5 brake light operation, as described and shown by the Youtuber.

It is that whenever the car decelerates more than a certain level, whatever the cause such as conventional braking, regen braking, forward-collision avoidance activation, etc..., the car should turn on the brake lights.

You got that? :D You still do not agree?


Again, how often do you brake and press the accelerator in any car?


Where did you get that? Where did I say that? :LOL:

What the Youtuber said and proved was that his Ioniq 5 could slow down severely with regen braking, yet its brake lights do not turn on. This is bad.

Again, regen braking not bad, one-pedal driving not bad. Car slowing down severely with no brake light -> BAD.


I’ve followed hundreds of Teslas into stops and never been surprised…have you?


Who said anything about the Teslas? :facepalm:
 
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By the way, what I have seen a few times is that people totally miscontrued what I wrote.

I think I am a careful writer, and often edit and edit what I write if I think it is not clear or ambigous.

Yet, the problem still happens. :)

And so, when it does, I am really curious to know how I could write it better.

And ask myself, is it me or is it the reader? :)
 
Completely agree with @NW-Bound and the YouTube video. I watched and commented on that yesterday...

These other manufacturers don't seem to ever learn their lesson... Just copy Tesla... they've got this figured out more than a decade ago.
 
I have a 2020 Bolt that has a bike rack on it. This allows me to see the brake lights very clearly at night when I have my bike loaded. The bike lights up very clearly when the brake lights turn on, so I have done some playing with it to see if the lights turn on when I think they should So far about the time I think the car is slowing down "fast" enough that the lights should turn on... they turn on...

For the Bolt I don't see any issues with the one pedal driving/brake lights.

Laters,
David
 
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