Honolulu rail

[SecondAttempt]

Because Koolau brought it up...

Honolulu's long awaited rail [-]debacle[/-] project started operating on June 30th 2023. Thousands of people rode during the first 5 free days. The first paid day saw about 1250 riders.

At 84,005 riders per day the operating cost is $12.79 per rider. They are asking for a fare of $3. I hesitate to do math in public but this rail project seems like a train wreck even if their wildest ridership dreams are met!.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Much like the United States Postal Service, the purpose of public transportation isn't to turn a profit, it's to provide a benefit to everyone; cheaper transportation for those using it, and less crowded roads for those who don't. I don't use the DC Metro to commute to work, but I do use it if I have to go downtown on a weekend, for tourism, dining, or travel, because it makes my trip a little bit longer, but a lot easier (parking, and listening to music/reading/playing games during the trip).

 

[gcgang]

My understanding is that it basically only goes from nowhere to nowhere anyone wants to go. It’s nowhere near being functional in taking you downtown or to the airport.

Its now in the dictionary under “boondoggle “.

 

[38Chevy454]

Another light fail project added to the bureaucracy. None of them are self-sufficient. As for taking cars off the road, for the amount of money they could build much better roads and be far ahead in the dollars vs benefits tradeoff.

 

[prudent_one]

My understanding is that it basically only goes from nowhere to nowhere anyone wants to go. It’s nowhere near being functional in taking you downtown or to the airport.

Its now in the dictionary under “boondoggle “.

They only have the first phase running now. But that means all the vehicles, the control center, and the operators are in place. The next phases will go much more smoothly as there is a lot less to do - just track and stations and adding more of the same equipment they are already experienced with.

Pretty typical of light rail systems to be built in phases. And there is always new developments and new businesses that pop up near transit stations.

 

[Koolau]

My understanding is that it basically only goes from nowhere to nowhere anyone wants to go. It’s nowhere near being functional in taking you downtown or to the airport.

Its now in the dictionary under “boondoggle “.

Pretty much correct. Supposedly, the bus system (THE BUS) will take you from one nowhere to where you want to go - with just a transfer. Boondoggle is too nice a word for it in my opinion. Basically, the whole thing was a make-w*rk project that each person on the Island will owe $10,000 for. Let that sink in.

 

[Koolau]

Much like the United States Postal Service, the purpose of public transportation isn't to turn a profit, it's to provide a benefit to everyone; cheaper transportation for those using it, and less crowded roads for those who don't. I don't use the DC Metro to commute to work, but I do use it if I have to go downtown on a weekend, for tourism, dining, or travel, because it makes my trip a little bit longer, but a lot easier (parking, and listening to music/reading/playing games during the trip).

I think you can sometimes make a case for a "losing proposition" for certain situations. But, the rail fulfills no actual need - at least at this point. MAYBE in several years and several more billion dollars it will go as far as U of H. That just might be useful - but at what cost. The bus system (THE BUS) already does that though, it's true, THE BUS has to wait in the same traffic as people do now while the rail does not.

 

[Koolau]

Another light fail project added to the bureaucracy. None of them are self-sufficient. As for taking cars off the road, for the amount of money they could build much better roads and be far ahead in the dollars vs benefits tradeoff.

When the proposal was "finalized" the powers that be admitted that it would only make a 6% difference in traffic (and that's if it had full ridership - which it never will.)



When I saw the plan, it occurred to me, they could have just modified it slightly and run buses over the same route - above the traffic. Forget the train.

 

[SecondAttempt]

When I saw the plan, it occurred to me, they could have just modified it slightly and run buses over the same route - above the traffic. Forget the train.

Ah, but then the Feds wouldn't have funded it!

 

[clifp]

Pretty much correct. Supposedly, the bus system (THE BUS) will take you from one nowhere to where you want to go - with just a transfer. Boondoggle is too nice a word for it in my opinion. Basically, the whole thing was a make-w*rk project that each person on the Island will owe $10,000 for. Let that sink in.

The english language is rich, but I've run out of adjectives to describe the project, and this forum bleeps out curse words. So I just say that It F*&%$&(##!() utterly and completely out of control.

The project is at $11 billion and counting, wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually hit $15 billion. There are just 300K households on the island of Oahu. So basically for the price of the rail system, every household, could have a self-driving Model 3 or Y. While self-driving isn't fully working yet, it is considerably more functional than the rail system. I bet the time the rail system is finished sometime in the early 2030s, self-driving will be working.

The prospect of spending $50 per ride is just obscene.

 

[Koolau]

Ah, but then the Feds wouldn't have funded it!

IIRC they only offered $.9 billion out of (the number change - $13 billion??). And, I'm not certain the rail has even qualified for the Fed's share yet. There were all kinds of little things the Feds didn't like (you know, like questionable cost over runs, etc.) Probably didn't like the idea that the wheels didn't fit the rails. Go figure.

 

[SecondAttempt]

IIRC they only offered $.9 billion out of (the number change - $13 billion??). And, I'm not certain the rail has even qualified for the Fed's share yet. There were all kinds of little things the Feds didn't like (you know, like questionable cost over runs, etc.) Probably didn't like the idea that the wheels didn't fit the rails. Go figure.

$0.9 billion. Yeah chump change. At least it wasn't $900 million!

Either way, while they tried hard to make it look like only people on Oahu were paying for it, they redirected a lot of tax money from neighbor islands too.

 

[Koolau]

$0.9 billion. Yeah chump change. At least it wasn't $900 million!

Either way, while they tried hard to make it look like only people on Oahu were paying for it, they redirected a lot of tax money from neighbor islands too.

I'm not doubting you, but how is that done (extracting tax money from other Islands)? I'm surprised the other Islands haven't protested more loudly (as I've not heard of this yet.) As I said, I do not doubt you as gummints in general and Hawaii specifically sucks up as much money as possible from tourists AND its citizens.

I really resent that I have to pay for the Rail, I can't even imagine what that would feel like on other Islands.

 

[jollystomper]

Is it just me, or have we become very inefficient in estimating the cost of large mass transit projects? I can remember that last time I heard of a rail l project come in near, at, or under budget. Maybe I do not get out enough .

 

[bobandsherry]

This project had gone through many delays. It was a solution looking for a problem. Those on the island never really supported this but administration there was determined come hell or high water.

 

[OldShooter]

... At 84,005 riders per day the operating cost is $12.79 per rider. They are asking for a fare of $3. I hesitate to do math in public but this rail project seems like a train wreck even if their wildest ridership dreams are met!.

Worse yet, in our area at least, capital costs and depreciation are ignored by advocates when this type of analysis is done. For each $billion spent, these costs (very roughly) are $1M/week. So, at $11B "invested" weekly cost is over $10M. Divide your ridership into that hidden cost!

 

[ncbill]

The light rail system in my state's largest city is only used anywhere near capacity when there is a major sporting event downtown.

Commuters to that city prefer to drive to their jobs.

Short of hefty congestion fees for vehicles heading into downtown the above won't change.

 

[Koolau]

Is it just me, or have we become very inefficient in estimating the cost of large mass transit projects? I can remember that last time I heard of a rail l project come in near, at, or under budget. Maybe I do not get out enough .

Yeah, I think the original estimate was like $3.5Bil. The estimates I've seen now vary from 10Bil to 13Bil but there have been no public audits that I'm aware of. $13Bil probable really means $15Bil just like most gummint projects. YMMV


Oh, and the estimates were for the full project - not the "no-where to no-where" version we got.

 

[Koolau]

This project had gone through many delays. It was a solution looking for a problem. Those on the island never really supported this but administration there was determined come hell or high water.

When the PTB sensed a "win" in the air, they conducted a "vote" and they "won" by a small margin. Of course, by then, folks on the Island understood that the rail wasn't a solution to transportation - it was a solution to unempl*yment. Everyone on the Island was 1) A potential rail w*rker 2) A cousin, brother, sister mom, dad, uncle, aunt, spouse, friend, lover of someone who was a potential rail w*rker.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I'm not doubting you, but how is that done (extracting tax money from other Islands)? I'm surprised the other Islands haven't protested more loudly (as I've not heard of this yet.) As I said, I do not doubt you as gummints in general and Hawaii specifically sucks up as much money as possible from tourists AND its citizens.

I really resent that I have to pay for the Rail, I can't even imagine what that would feel like on other Islands.

It's mostly funded by the Transient Accommodation Tax (TAT). That is all paid to the state tax collector by hotels, vacation rentals, etc. and the state is supposed to give the counties' shares back to the county. When you file the tax form you indicate which county it is for. Several years ago the state reduced what went back to the counties to help pay for your train set. They came up with all sorts of twisted explanations for why this was not having neighbor island residents pay for Honolulu's rail. But money is fungible so...we were given the honor of giving a gift to Oahu residents.

I don't think you ever sent me a thank you card either!

Before anyone goes there, yes the TAT is mostly paid by tourists but it funded the general funds of each county. When the state took that away they also authorized the counties to tack on a surcharge to the General Excise Tax that we pay on almost everything we buy, goods and services, to make up the difference. So we ended up paying more taxes.

I've driven in Honolulu. Traffic is horrible and parking is worse. They needed to do something. But as others have said, the rail does not go to places that are of much help in addressing the traffic problems.

 

[mystang52]

Until this thread I had no knowledge about this. Just from the comments, though, it's obvious this was yet another government project done without applying common sense.............and of course cost overruns.

 

[Andre1969]

I'm just curious...are there any examples in recent memory of light rail, trolley, streetcar systems, etc, that were actually beneficial to their communities? As opposed to just costing tons of money, adding to congestion, etc?

At first, I was thinking about the Baltimore Light Rail. But I was talking with a friend the other day, who lived in Baltimore for awhile, and he said it was horribly unreliable. I also looked it up, and apparently it only handles about 9200 riders per day on average. I think I last rode it in late 2017. It was nice to be able to park out in the suburbs, and ride the train into the downtown/inner harbor area, and not have to worry about traffic, parking, squeegee boyz, etc.

But, out in the 'burbs, in those parking lots you'll occasionally see shattered car window glass sparkling on the pavement. So, you take a risk leaving your car there, as well.

They're working on something else in Maryland called "The Purple Line", an streetcar/light rail type of thing that's supposed to connect the New Carrollton Metro station to the one in Silver Spring, or something like that. One of my friends bought a house not far from the proposed route, and was SOOO excited about how it when it opened, it was going to make the value of his house skyrocket. Well, that was around 2007/2008 when he bought the house. And with delays, I think now they're looking for a 2027 opening for the Purple Line. Talk about setbacks!

And honestly, I don't see how it does anything a bus couldn't do. My Dad used to live about a quarter mile's walk from where the tracks are going through. For awhile, he went without a car. He would walk that quarter mile to the bus stop, and catch the bus, or probably, a series of buses, to and from work. Well, once that Purple Line train opens, it's not like would have been able to just walk up to the main street and catch it, like he did the bus. Nearest station is about a mile's walk. So, figure a ~20 minute walk, to catch the train, vs a ~5 minute walk to catch the bus.

Eventually, he just bought a car, and the commute to work was about 15-20 minutes, total.

I'm sure these mass transit projects can be made to work more effectively. And maybe they actually DO work, for some people. But in the end, to me at least, they just seem like they're more trouble than they're worth.

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

They're working on something else in Maryland called "The Purple Line", an streetcar/light rail type of thing that's supposed to connect the New Carrollton Metro station to the one in Silver Spring, or something like that. One of my friends bought a house not far from the proposed route, and was SOOO excited about how it when it opened, it was going to make the value of his house skyrocket. Well, that was around 2007/2008 when he bought the house. And with delays, I think now they're looking for a 2027 opening for the Purple Line. Talk about setbacks!

I moved to MD in 2003, and the big push at that time was to get the long-awaited ICC highway built. The BS argument was that it would alleviate all the traffic on the beltway. The real reason they built it was the developers and their lobbyists who would make money off the project. Well now the highway is there, but the beltway is even more of a mess than before, the taxpayers are still paying off the bonds, and the profits from the tolls on the ICC are paying for who-knows-what.

My point is that it's not just trains that are govt boondoggles.

 

[Koolau]

It's mostly funded by the Transient Accommodation Tax (TAT). That is all paid to the state tax collector by hotels, vacation rentals, etc. and the state is supposed to give the counties' shares back to the county. When you file the tax form you indicate which county it is for. Several years ago the state reduced what went back to the counties to help pay for your train set. They came up with all sorts of twisted explanations for why this was not having neighbor island residents pay for Honolulu's rail. But money is fungible so...we were given the honor of giving a gift to Oahu residents.

I don't think you ever sent me a thank you card either!

Before anyone goes there, yes the TAT is mostly paid by tourists but it funded the general funds of each county. When the state took that away they also authorized the counties to tack on a surcharge to the General Excise Tax that we pay on almost everything we buy, goods and services, to make up the difference. So we ended up paying more taxes.

I've driven in Honolulu. Traffic is horrible and parking is worse. They needed to do something. But as others have said, the rail does not go to places that are of much help in addressing the traffic problems.

Well, consider this my official "Thank You" for helping pay for the Rail. Or, more appropriately, mahalo nui loa.

At least you don't have to look at the thing unless you travel to Oahu. What an eye sore. No one will be held accountable for the boondoggle and it won't be long until the (typical) lack of planned maintenance will (I almost said "derail") sideline or shut down the abomination. Imagine 1000 years from now, archeologists will find strange concrete pillars on Oahu and wonder what they were for. "HMMMMmmmmm." One will say, scratching her chin. "I wonder what 'F the rail' means. Every pillar has something like that scrawled on it."

 

[SecondAttempt]

Well, consider this my official "Thank You" for helping pay for the Rail. Or, more appropriately, mahalo nui loa.

At least you don't have to look at the thing unless you travel to Oahu. What an eye sore. No one will be held accountable for the boondoggle and it won't be long until the (typical) lack of planned maintenance will (I almost said "derail") sideline or shut down the abomination. Imagine 1000 years from now, archeologists will find strange concrete pillars on Oahu and wonder what they were for. "HMMMMmmmmm." One will say, scratching her chin. "I wonder what 'F the rail' means. Every pillar has something like that scrawled on it."

You are most welcome!

And I'm sure those archeologists will reason that 'F the rail' was just an expression of local enthusiasm to fund the fail!

Glad i don't have to look at it everyday.