Inappropriate Hugging?

[Texas Proud]

OHHH, just thinking.. maybe he will be the one out of the foursome... why would it be you?


Just find someone to replace him...

 

[ERD50]

.... There was this one lady who cut hair.. would wear tight t-shirts with no bra and stand in front of the guys as much as she could... I could not believe some guys went to her as she was horrible at cutting hair... but they liked the show...

So could they say "I just got my hair cut, please pretend to cut my hair, here's $25, I'm just here for the show?".

Just kidding, I'll have more serious comments later after I get through more posts....


-ERD50

 

[EastWest Gal]

As someone who was sexually harassed by a 36 year old boss when I was 17 and quit the very next day, you should say something to him. Being hugged by customers is NOT part of her job. You should talk to him privately and tell him the hugging makes you uncomfortable. Point out that she probably does not want to be pawed by old men at work or ever. He is treating her very disrespectfully and if you say nothing you will feel complicit in his behavior.

Ask how it would seem if every one of your foursome took turns hugging her, and what if she was his granddaughter? Her clothing is part of her job, and not her choice.

Don’t go checking how the others in your foursome feel about it. No need-you’ve already asked all of us. You don’t want to be talking about friends to other friends behind their back.

 

[tulak]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

+1

 

[Calico]

He said 20-something, not an underage teen. What does age have to do with it if all are adults?

The ages aren't the point.

The fact is there is a power imbalance at play here. He is a paying customer, and she is working.

The fact that the other members in the foursome haven't already spoken up means they are enabling this creep's behavior every time it happens.

The young woman (teens or 20's, it doesn't matter) is very likely afraid to speak up for fear of alienating a customer, or losing her job, or worse.

It is not the responsibility of the young woman to police this old creep's behavior. He knows darn well what he is doing is inappropriate, and it is his responsibility to behave appropriately.

 

[Morgan22]

But in this case, the recipient is a young woman, who may not have yet developed the self-awareness, confidence, and social skills to deal with these sorts of unwanted behaviors. The fact that she is at work may make it even more tricky for her, depending on whether or not her employer is sensitive to these types of issues, and supportive.

Bingo! Thank you Major Tom.

Many of my friends put up with this type of gross behavior when we were teens into our 20's. We just didn't know how to handle the situation and didn't want to lose our jobs.

 

[Calico]

But in this case, the recipient is a young woman, who may not have yet developed the self-awareness, confidence, and social skills to deal with these sorts of unwanted behaviors. The fact that she is at work may make it even more tricky for her, depending on whether or not her employer is sensitive to these types of issues, and supportive.

This - exactly this.

 

[badatmath]

60 posts in less than 3 hours! I'm impressed.

We are all excited not to talk about when to take SS!

 

[jollystomper]

I would say it is different if it is a stranger compared to a regular who you have been friendly with for an extended amount of time. Did the young woman openly accept the hug, hug back, or back away. Big difference between those IMO. I don't consider age to be a factor as long as all are 18+. I think most of you are way too fast to call it sexual harassment when it could have just been a friendly hug that was mutually consensual and no big deal.

In my view it can also be less about age than who has the "power" and/or "status". We have seen too many cases of people putting up with behaviors, even seemingly accepting it, not because it is wanted, but out of fear of "I will lose something if I tell the person that I do not want that type of 'affection', or if I complain".

At my age I just assume that any strange (in terms of I do not know her) woman, or woman on staff at a business establishment, will see me as a "creepy old man" (no matter how good I may think I look ), so I behave in a way to dispel that. In other words, just act like a gentleman. As the saying goes, "just do not be innocent, be above suspicion". I also assume, in cases where tipping is in play, that any attempts on their part to be overly friendly or flirtatious are an attempt to enhance a tip, and try to subtly convey that, for me, it will not be a factor. Best to err on the side of caution.

 

[ERD50]

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

I was thinking about that as I was reading.

I don't want to be too hard on Midpack, we aren't there to see everything, and it can be complicated and subtle, but I do get a sense of "it's bad, but doing something might affect me, so maybe I'll just let it go"?

Even just yanking him back with "Geez can't take you anywhere" might work. ...

Dirty old man. Maybe say casually and privately, "Hey Bob", she's a bit young for you, isn't she!" ....

I don't agree. First off, he KNOWS she's young - that's why he's doing it! And the casual comment is going to be seen as making a joke of it, and might even encourage him as in a 'men will be men' kind of way.

Have you talked to the others in the foursome? What is their reaction? ....

Surprised this was the first time it was asked. It could have a major factor.

I have not read the whole thread yet but will throw this in and duck...

Why not ask the girl off to the side? She might not have a problem and I think you could read her even if she was being nice and said it was OK and it was not.

.... The tight clothes and tiny shorts are pretty much standard wear for cart girls ....

Yep. I know I may get in trouble with some for this, but if an attractive young lady takes a job that requires "tight clothes and tiny shorts", then they better be prepared for that environment. Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, but it's naive to think there isn't something that comes with that territory. Get a job in a different environment if you are not ready to handle it. And yes, some girls are going to play along for the tips. I don't like that either, but that's the truth of the world.

-ERD50

 

[Landolink]

Look at the leaders of the golf world. It’s the culture they grew up in and it’s the culture they fight to preserve. I’m not a golfer but I considered joining as a Social member at a CC near our Lake House. Then I thought about most guys i know who are members of CC. No thx!!

 

[GenXguy]

Don't say anything.

[Mod Edit]

People get so uptight these days about what other people are doing.

 

[harley]

Yep. I know I may get in trouble with some for this, but if an attractive young lady takes a job that requires "tight clothes and tiny shorts", then they better be prepared for that environment. Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, but it's naive to think there isn't something that comes with that territory. Get a job in a different environment if you are not ready to handle it. And yes, some girls are going to play along for the tips. I don't like that either, but that's the truth of the world.

-ERD50

I'm calling total BS on this. The only reason it's the truth of the world is because old men have made it so. It shouldn't matter if a woman is serving beers totally naked, there's no excuse for assuming she's for rent or sale. And even less to assume she's good with sexual abuse. Only people who see everything in terms of power would make such an assumption. Time to reexamine your standards. I wold be much prouder to accept the person dressing in whatever matter they choose without making any assumptions about their motives. Now, I might tip a bit more if a woman dressed attractively, but that would be it. A bigger tip, not a feel.

 

[disneysteve]

I'm calling total BS on this. The only reason it's the truth of the world is because old men have made it so. It shouldn't matter if a woman is serving beers totally naked, there's no excuse for assuming she's for rent or sale. And even less to assume she's good with sexual abuse. Only people who see everything in terms of power would make such an assumption. Time to reexamine your standards. I wold be much prouder to accept the person dressing in whatever matter they choose without making any assumptions about their motives.

THIS 100%!

Saying a woman should be prepared for the environment is completely ignoring the problem. THE ENVIRONMENT SHOULDN’T EXIST!

 

[Calico]

Yep. I know I may get in trouble with some for this, but if an attractive young lady takes a job that requires "tight clothes and tiny shorts", then they better be prepared for that environment. Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, but it's naive to think there isn't something that comes with that territory. Get a job in a different environment if you are not ready to handle it. And yes, some girls are going to play along for the tips. I don't like that either, but that's the truth of the world.

-ERD50

By "handle it" I presume you mean sexual harassment just comes with the "territory" and young women should put up with it? News flash: sexual harassment happens in every working environment, and it isn't predicated upon how women dress. It is, as has been mentioned several times, absolutely a power move. Nothing more, nothing less.

I worked in a very professional organization for 25 years. Everyone dressed in appropriate business attire (men and women).

One VP thought his female employees' bodies were his property, and he treated them as such. He was out on his ear within a year because people spoke up.

He only ever behaved inappropriately with younger, vulnerable female staff of lower professional status. He certainly didn't try that cr@p with his female peers or the female VPs.

It is 2023. We are long past the days where it was/is acceptable to blame women who are harassed or assaulted for "wearing the wrong clothes" or "asking for it."

The problem is with the man's behavior. Full stop.

I'm heartened to see numerous posts from men on this thread who do realize where the responsibility lies, and who aren't blaming the woman in this situation (or other situations).

 

[Markola]

I’ve learned to follow the lady’s lead. Unless it’s someone whom I know from long experience expects to hug, when I see a female to greet, I stick out my right hand to shake. Increasingly, men and women just shake hands. But If she instead moves in to hug, ok, but it’s less confusing for me and no one can say I’m a creep.

It was nice during the pandemic when no one had to touch. Clear AND sanitary.

 

[Markola]

Yep. I know I may get in trouble with some for this, but if an attractive young lady takes a job that requires "tight clothes and tiny shorts", then they better be prepared for that environment. Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, but it's naive to think there isn't something that comes with that territory. Get a job in a different environment if you are not ready to handle it. And yes, some girls are going to play along for the tips. I don't like that either, but that's the truth of the world.

-ERD50

Yes, I fully agree - that you are going to get in trouble for that.

 

[steady saver]

Say something! He's not someone worth playing golf with. I would feel creepy if I played with him and stood there while he did it and I didn't say anything. Imagine if this young woman was your daughter. Or niece. Or best friend's daughter...

The power differential is there. Someone needs to say something so why not let it be you?

 

[Qs Laptop]

Maybe it's just me, but one of my golf regulars makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers, and it's not to be friendly IMO. It seems totally inappropriate to me, but I am sure it would end our friendship if I called him on it no matter how carefully I word it - he has a very short fuse anyway.

How long have you known this person? Is he really a friend you've known for a while or merely an acquaintance you met while golfing?

Actually, it doesn't matter. You've got to say something. If it ends your friendship, oh well. This type of behaviour is inexcusable.

 

[ERD50]

Yes, I fully agree - that you are going to get in trouble for that.

By "handle it" I presume you mean sexual harassment just comes with the "territory" and young women should put up with it? ...

OK, I did a bad job communicating!

No, absolutely not "put up with it". No way! I thought I expressed that when I said:

Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, ...
-ERD50

I meant what I said - that is you are putting yourself in that environment - so be prepared to push back, not to accept it.

I'm calling total BS on this. ..... Now, I might tip a bit more if a woman dressed attractively, but that would be it. A bigger tip, not a feel.

Well, well. Let me tell you, now that you've made all these judgments on me after misinterpreting what I said. I never said anything about them being for rent or sale - just the opposite, I'll repeat:

Doesn't give anyone the right to do anything unacceptable of course, ...
-ERD50

I don't tip based on what the server is wearing, I tip on the service. DW and I frequent a local place, kind of a sports bar, and some of the wait staff dress more revealing than others, some are pretty darn hot, and some are average or lower in the looks department . Probably one out of four times we'll get one of the obviously hot ones. While I'll enjoy looking at the nice ones, 'cause that's how I'm wired. The tip is based on their service, not their looks. And I recently informed the manager that one of the pretty cute ones needed some training, she really messed up our order and left us waiting.

So maybe it's you who needs to take "Time to reexamine your standards.", or maybe re-read the post?

-ERD50

 

[RetiredHappy]

At our club, the motto is ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. There is never a superior vs. inferior position. I have never witnessed any sort of sexual harrassment, and we sure hug everyone alot here, staff and members. If it is "creepy", that behavior would have been immediately addressed and the said person out on the ass.

 

[brett]

I am 71. I hate being hugged by anyone other than my spouse, sister, children, and parents(when living). Always have.

I hate being hugged by people I hardly know, distant cousins, friends of my spouse, etc.

I am at a loss to understand why anyone who invade someone else's space that they do not have a close relationship with. Or accost them in any other way just to satisfy themselves.

Sometimes will asked if I want a hug. The answer is no, thank you.

I mean really, who wants a hug from someone they hardly know. My view is that if someone is so much into hugging they should get themselves a dog or a teddy bear.

Likewise, I would never be so bold or rude ever consider hugging an acquaintance, let alone a complete stranger. They seemed to do it frequently at a church my spouse once attended. I stopped going. It seemed so insincere and more for show than anything else. My spouse agreed.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I think the guy we are talking about here is being inappropriate so I am in no way defending him. I think I would inform the golf course management what is going on and let them deal with it.

But hugging is a very culture-dependent thing. In Hawaii, even in a business context you see a lot of it, generally not with strangers but sometimes with coworkers who otherwise are not well-acquainted, especially if someone is being honored or congratulated for something. Often there is even a "receiving line" after where it's a hug that is exchanged rather than a handshake. It is something that is addressed in the sexual harassment training that we get and is not considered harassment, though touching someone's butt outside clothes, even if accidental qualifies as sexual assault here. It is also customary to hug when giving a lei...and leis are often given at work for various reasons...so basically there is a lot of innocent hugging even at work here.

We were in Vegas earlier this year eating in a restaurant at a casino on the strip and the server recognized my partner as from Hawaii and not only gave us a "kama'aina" discount but also hugged everyone in our party as we got up to leave. (The server was from Hawaii). I've even seen US Navy ceremonies from Oahu where there is a lot more hugging associated with giving leis than you would ever see in, say, San Diego.

When I took my partner to meet some of my old friends in Europe this summer, mostly Scandinavia which is not as "huggy" as some countries, she was greeted with a hug by almost every one of my friends even though they had never met her before.

TLDR: Your guy is a creep but hugs can also be innocent and merely social these days, at least in some areas.

 

[Midpack]

I assume you're talking about people who know each other and are on equal status - fellow players. OP is talking about a customer hugging a teen employee who is not a friend, family member, or colleague. Entirely different situations.

Exactly. Pushing back with a paying customer is entirely different than two adults on equal footing or in the workplace.

 

[Midpack]

We hug servers and staff as well. Not different, other than we all avoid frontal contacts. We have 80+ yo men doing light hugs with everyone. Nothing dirty about it.

These are (brief) frontal hugs with both arms.

Thanks all. I see there are a variety of opinions, mostly toward inappropriate as I hoped/expected. I will pull him aside the next time I witness it first hand, and see where it goes. I don’t get the impression the other two guys are going to do anything, so I’ll probably be the “loser.” If he pushes back, they won’t speak up. Oh well, I can’t turn a blind eye anymore.

Some comments seemed to overlook the power imbalance FWIW. This is not two adults on a level playing field.

That said, in my defense, she doesn’t have to accept the hugs and she doesn’t have to wear such revealing clothing on the job, her choices. For all I know she’d rather I let her handle it in her own way, which may be let it go. While she is only about 21 yo, she’s not some naive teen, she’s a bright girl. No, I’m not going to ask her, she’s just an acquaintance.

While I fully agree men don’t have the right to touch any woman period, it’s easy to confuse signals - the issue is a two way street. Aside from family, I never hug any woman who doesn’t initiate the hug herself and not even then sometimes.