Inappropriate Hugging?

[Aerides]

That said, in my defense, she doesn’t have to accept the hugs and she doesn’t have to wear such revealing clothing on the job, her choices. For all I know she’d rather I let her handle it in her own way, which may be let it go. While she is only about 21 yo, she’s not some naive teen, she’s a bright girl. No, I’m not going to ask her, she’s just an acquaintance.

Having been a 21 year old woman, and a very bright one at that. No, I would not have felt I had agency to "handle" the situation you describe other than to tolerate it. For all you know, she has asked her boss who has given her no guidance other than "oh it's ok, he's a good customer..." And the point is he's absolutely not saving his behavior for this one person...

Having since become a much older woman, as Marie mentioned earlier, a 35 year old or 55 year old would handle it MUCH differently, but even removing age as a factor she is not on equal footing. I've had male bosses insist on a hug into my 40's...at least by then I'd developed the physical know how to position myself defensively.

And what 21 year old doesn't wear what we consider revealing these days? My niece is 21, I don't think she's covered her midriff in years. She looks great! She isn't interested in attention from anyone but her BF, and all her friends dress like that.

 

[donheff]

Maybe say, "hey Bob, are you in touch with the times? A lot of women find that offensive but tolerate it because they don't want to cause a scene or are worried about their jobs if you complain about them. But one of them may eventually complain and you could find yourself tossed from the club."

 

[Trailwalker]

I’m with Brett on the hug thing. I have distant relatives trained to accept a verbal “hug hug” rather than the real thing. In this case, I think you really have to be there to make a judgment. It is a two way street with adults. Having said that, my friends will give me a hard time for wearing an ugly shirt. An inappropriate hug would definitely be fair game, and no one would let something like that go in my circle of friends.

 

[Midpack]

Having been a 21 year old woman, and a very bright one at that. No, I would not have felt I had agency to "handle" the situation you describe other than to tolerate it. For all you know, she has asked her boss who has given her no guidance other than "oh it's ok, he's a good customer..." And the point is he's absolutely not saving his behavior for this one person...

Having since become a much older woman, as Marie mentioned earlier, a 35 year old or 55 year old would handle it MUCH differently, but even removing age as a factor she is not on equal footing. I've had male bosses insist on a hug into my 40's...at least by then I'd developed the physical know how to position myself defensively.

And what 21 year old doesn't wear what we consider revealing these days? My niece is 21, I don't think she's covered her midriff in years. She looks great! She isn't interested in attention from anyone but her BF, and all her friends dress like that.

Her boss happens to be her Mom, so I hope not. Her Mom does not dress at all like the daughter, the opposite extreme if anything.

Again, I don't condone touching a woman no matter what. That said, the girl who usually wears skin tight tops with skin tight micro shorts, wore a tiny see thru black skirt yesterday - at work on a golf course? Left absolutely nothing to the imagination (TBH that's what made me decide I couldn't ignore this). Doesn't change anything WRT how men should behave but...

Regardless I'm going to talk to him one on one the next time I see him hug her, but I'm pretty sure I will be the bad guy thereafter. I suspect the other two guys will privately tell me they agree but wish I hadn't said anything. And who knows how many others have witnessed his behavior and done nothing. I'm not a stranger to speaking out when others won't, had to do it in my career thousands of times. But it's tiresome to be the guy who has to do it more often than not, and have other guys quietly tell me they're glad I acted (why couldn't they once in a while?).

Those of you who have a perfect record for speaking out are better men than me I guess.

 

[LateToFIRE]

[MOD EDIT] I think that if one sees something inappropriate, they have a duty to say something - provided you're in a safe environment/situation to do so. Otherwise, I think it makes one arguably complicit in the act.

+1

The dirty old man is abusing the power dynamic of the situation - the servers are young and inexperienced in dealing with awkward harassment situations, and just trying to go about their job. Dressing in skintight, revealing clothing is just a norm at their age - doesn't give anyone license to feel them up.

The old man is a jerk - worse than that - he is a perv. If the OP stands by and does nothing, they are 100% complicit in accepting his behavior. This is how bullies get away with acting badly. Nobody has the courage to challenge them because what? He might yell at them? It'd disrupt the peace?

I've personally put my money where my mouth is on this issue - have taken men aside to have that talk, albeit in a professional setting. Results are about 50/50. Some are horrified their behavior was received that way, others stubbornly believe in their right to act however they want (usually the entitled hothead type like you describe here).

Either way, I'm not playing along.

 

[Car-Guy]

That said, the girl who usually wears skin tight tops with skin tight micro shorts, wore a tiny see thru black skirt yesterday - at work on a golf course? Left absolutely nothing to the imagination. Doesn't change anything WRT how men should behave but...

Just curious, how do the other girls dress that work there? (I may have missed that part of this discussion) But I agree with the bold text.

 

[REWahoo]

... the girl who usually wears skin tight tops with skin tight micro shorts, wore a tiny see thru black skirt yesterday - at work on a golf course? Left absolutely nothing to the imagination.

This thread is useless without pictures...

 

[Retired Expat]

Maybe it's just me, but one of my golf regulars makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers, and it's not to be friendly IMO. He's 73 divorced, and he's decided it's OK for him to frontal hug the 20 something girl that drives the beverage cart for tips at the golf course we play at. She plays along but I can't believe she appreciates it - he's old enough to be her grandfather. He does it with other young women as well, flirts with them at every opportunity (also seems out of line to me at his age). It seems totally inappropriate to me, but I am sure it would end our friendship if I called him on it no matter how carefully I word it - he has a very short fuse anyway.

Is it even my place to say anything, if the girls put up with it? Since it's always in a customer (him) to server (girls) situation, I can understand how they might choose to accept his hugs.

Or maybe I should just keep my nose out of it?

Not uncommon in older men to lose their natural filters. They say and do what they are thinking as they think it and often are completely inappropriate in what they say and and their actions too. Had several relatives who got this way as their Alzheimer’s or dementia became more pronounced. There is also a phenomenon where they become hyper sexualized. So embarrassing! But they are oblivious to what they are doing and don’t see anything wrong in their actions or can’t remember next time that you admonished them about just that 20 minutes ago.. is quite sad actually. Read more about loss of inhibitory control. https://theconversation.com/do-we-really-lose-our-filter-as-we-age-176248

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I grew up on a farm alongside our fellow Norwegian immigrant neighbors. Hugs are rare, almost unheard of even among family.

 

[Alan]

Her boss happens to be her Mom, so I hope not. Her Mom does not dress at all like the daughter, the opposite extreme if anything.

Again, I don't condone touching a woman no matter what. That said, the girl who usually wears skin tight tops with skin tight micro shorts, wore a tiny see thru black skirt yesterday - at work on a golf course? Left absolutely nothing to the imagination (TBH that's what made me decide I couldn't ignore this). Doesn't change anything WRT how men should behave but...

Regardless I'm going to talk to him one on one the next time I see him hug her, but I'm pretty sure I will be the bad guy thereafter. I suspect the other two guys will privately tell me they agree but wish I hadn't said anything. And who knows how many others have witnessed his behavior and done nothing. I'm not a stranger to speaking out when others won't, had to do it in my career thousands of times. But it's tiresome to be the guy who has to do it more often than not, and have other guys quietly tell me they're glad I acted (why couldn't they once in a while?).

Those of you who have a perfect record for speaking out are better men than me I guess.

In your OP you said that he “ makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers” but you now seem to be focusing on just one particular woman. Hopefully you will take the opportunity to talk to him regardless of which young woman you next see him hugging.

 

[jollystomper]

Again, I don't condone touching a woman no matter what[/U]. That said, the girl who usually wears skin tight tops with skin tight micro shorts, wore a tiny see thru black skirt yesterday - at work on a golf course? Left absolutely nothing to the imagination (TBH that's what made me decide I couldn't ignore this). Doesn't change anything WRT how men should behave [-]but...[/-]

Fixed that last part for you .

How she chooses to dress is a completely separate issue from how the old guy acts towards her. Some here are combining the two.

If you have a problem with how she dresses, you should also speak up to course management about that. But that is a separate issue from how your friend chooses to behave around her.

I believe in the saying "you may not be able to control what others do around you, but you can control your actions and reactions to those things". I do not believe looks, comments, or touching are justified based on how someone is dressed.

Of course your friends will likely see you as the "bad guy". Many older men are of the generation that thinks this is normal behavior. They also tend to be full of themselves a bit thinking that these women see them as attractive (perhaps they have watched too many movies where the actress playing the wife/girlfriend in many years younger than the male actor ). But sometimes one has to decide if one wants to be liked, or if one prefers to do the right thing.

I have lost several close friendships over things like this. In the long run, I realized those were probably not the close friendships that would have been good for me.

 

[ERD50]

....
Regardless I'm going to talk to him one on one the next time I see him hug her, but I'm pretty sure I will be the bad guy thereafter. I suspect the other two guys will privately tell me they agree but wish I hadn't said anything.

...
But it's tiresome to be the guy who has to do it more often than not, and have other guys quietly tell me they're glad I acted (why couldn't they once in a while?). ...

Maybe talk to the other guys ahead of time for some feedback (but do the right thing regardless, not asking their 'permission').

Maybe talk to the offender before it happens, in a gentle/firm way. That might be less confrontational than in the middle of it? Something like "Hey friend, I've been meaning to tell you, when you hung that girl, it's awkward for me. I really think you should cut it out, it's just not really appropriate here. OK? Just cool it, please.".

-ERD50

 

[skyking1]

Physical greetings are reciprocal or they are not. I have a different take on what I do agree is not appropriate.
I would talk to the young lady privately and let her know that she has your support and does not need to put up with unwelcome touching from ANYBODY. She really can assert her power in this situation and future situations.
Empower her. She can take care of herself and if you can help her get started with that, all the better.
If she turns away from the contact and this guy makes any odd comment or further inappropriate response he is then open for you to say " really? This is the 21st century" or something like that.
IF he complains to management you have already given her your support and can witness her counter complaint, if it ever came to that. I doubt it would.

 

[LateToFIRE]

H...I'm going to talk to him one on one the next time I see him hug her, but I'm pretty sure I will be the bad guy thereafter. I suspect the other two guys will privately tell me they agree but wish I hadn't said anything. And who knows how many others have witnessed his behavior and done nothing. I'm not a stranger to speaking out when others won't, had to do it in my career thousands of times. But it's tiresome to be the guy who has to do it more often than not, and have other guys quietly tell me they're glad I acted (why couldn't they once in a while?).

Those of you who have a perfect record for speaking out are better men than me I guess.

I know exactly what you mean - have often felt this way before taking the plunge. Why me? Everyone knows what is right, no one is willing to act.

But, this is part of the very definition of leadership. Not everyone has the capacity for discomfort - and sadly, that allows the bullies to run roughshod over everyone. I believe we get the society we're willing to enable.

Honestly, I find the courage to speak up in the example of my DW. All 95 pounds of her that you absolutely do not want to get on the wrong side of - she would've fed this old fellow to the alligators even at age 18.

 

[Dash man]

I agree that you should say something. But I don’t understand why you’d think this might end your friendship. If he takes offense, it’s his loss. He’d obviously be very immature and the friendship shallow.

 

[LateToFIRE]

Physical greetings are reciprocal or they are not. I have a different take on what I do agree is not appropriate.
I would talk to the young lady privately and let her know that she has your support and does not need to put up with unwelcome touching from ANYBODY. She really can assert her power in this situation and future situations.
Empower her. She can take care of herself and if you can help her get started with that, all the better.
If she turns away from the contact and this guy makes any odd comment or further inappropriate response he is then open for you to say " really? This is the 21st century" or something like that.
IF he complains to management you have already given her your support and can witness her counter complaint, if it ever came to that. I doubt it would.

This is wishful thinking. These young ladies are not in a situation that affords them that kind of empowerment. Granted, I did just say a minute ago my DW would have given this guy the stiff-arm even at that age, but she is quite unusual and her early experiences with this kind of thing has been that would have been reprimanded or fired for it. Most people not willing to risk that. The group needs to police itself or management needs to step up.

 

[Amethyst]

Why not? Shaking hands has no sexual connotations that I'm aware of.

OTOH I can't see any reason for shaking hands with a server, unless the two of you had a bet on, such as whether Amy in the red top is likely to smack old Mr. Grabby across the face next time he moves in for a clinch.

So you made me stop and think. Is it okay to shake hands with a younger women (not girls) on occasions?

No different that I do with men that I know well, and I certainly don't hug them either.

 

[LateToFIRE]

Not uncommon in older men to lose their natural filters. They say and do what they are thinking as they think it and often are completely inappropriate in what they say and and their actions too. Had several relatives who got this way as their Alzheimer’s or dementia became more pronounced. There is also a phenomenon where they become hyper sexualized. So embarrassing! But they are oblivious to what they are doing and don’t see anything wrong in their actions or can’t remember next time that you admonished them about just that 20 minutes ago.. is quite sad actually. Read more about loss of inhibitory control. https://theconversation.com/do-we-really-lose-our-filter-as-we-age-176248

I had an uncle who was like this as he aged. Actually, I think he was a big flirt even when he was younger - probably got away with it because he was in fact a very tall and handsome man in his youth. But, as an old geezer, his behavior ranged from embarrassing to horrifying. I finally had it when he started chatting up a couple of girls, obviously (to anyone but him) in their early teens - I grabbed his arm and pulled him aside, explained that their father was probably not far away and would have no issues beating an 85 year man to death. That seemed to get his attention. For sure, his behavior was probably a sign of mild dementia onset.

 

[Alan]

Physical greetings are reciprocal or they are not. I have a different take on what I do agree is not appropriate.
I would talk to the young lady privately and let her know that she has your support and does not need to put up with unwelcome touching from ANYBODY. She really can assert her power in this situation and future situations.
Empower her. She can take care of herself and if you can help her get started with that, all the better.
If she turns away from the contact and this guy makes any odd comment or further inappropriate response he is then open for you to say " really? This is the 21st century" or something like that.
IF he complains to management you have already given her your support and can witness her counter complaint, if it ever came to that. I doubt it would.

The OP says that the man does this to multiple young women so surely it is better to talk to the source rather than all of his targets.

 

[ivinsfan]

Well the late added detail about her Mom being her boss kind of changes things for me.IMO if it really bothered her she would say, Hey Mom Mr X is a dirty old man and he's too handsy.



So now my opinion is just enjoy your golf without saying anything. See I do have an open mind.

 

[skyking1]

Perhaps her mom is saying "that is just the way it is" which I find unfortunate.

 

[aaronc879]

Why not? Shaking hands has no sexual connotations that I'm aware of.

Neither does a hug 90%+ of the time IMO.

 

[Aerides]

Well the late added detail about her Mom being her boss kind of changes things for me.IMO if it really bothered her she would say, Hey Mom Mr X is a dirty old man and he's too handsy.



So now my opinion is just enjoy your golf without saying anything. See I do have an open mind.

We all, sadly, know women who do not act in the best interests of other women. Women who don't mind that their daughter has to put up with a hug or three if it means Old Creep keeps paying them $100 every week for their golf and drinks. And sure, totally feasible that this particular young woman doesn't really think anything of it, and is happy to pocket the tips, and is using her attractiveness to manipulate money out of old fools. We can all put together possibilities that make this either horrible or not, whatever.

But none of that makes it right, it's not just this young woman, it's a behavior. Focus is on the wrong person, and should be on the dude, not one of his many targets.

 

[LateToFIRE]

Well the late added detail about her Mom being her boss kind of changes things for me.IMO if it really bothered her she would say, Hey Mom Mr X is a dirty old man and he's too handsy.



So now my opinion is just enjoy your golf without saying anything. See I do have an open mind.

The fact that one of the young lady's being assaulted might have an uncaring, negligent mom doesn't change a thing.

 

[brett]

The sad part is that there are a fair number of 'creeps' about who have their behavior overlooked because of age, because some people believe it is some sort of social convention, or worse because of appearance or dress standards.

Why make excuses? A creep is a creep regardless of age.

I find it incredible that someone would consider hugging someone that they do not even know or know slightly. More incredible to me is that some people think that this is acceptable behavior from a male or a female. It isn't. Even more so now with the rise of covid once again.