Inappropriate Hugging?

[punkinhead]

Several people are bringing other cultures into this discussion which is irrelevant. This situation isn't taking place in Europe or Hawaii or any other place where uninvited hugs from strangers is commonplace.

Before retiring I worked several months a year in Mexico where hugging and a kiss on the cheek was normal. I didn't try it with a waitress in the US. And even in Mexico I always let the woman initiate the hug.

 

[steelyman]

I noticed a lot more hugging going on here in central NC than in Illinois (my former state). One time I gently motioned it away (just a hand up, with a smile) to a lady. It wasn’t a problem.

I didn’t think it “inappropriate”, just not my custom.

 

[Koolau]

But the OP wasn't asking about doing the hugging themselves but about someone else hugging others. I wouldn't attack others for giving someone else a hug even if I wouldn't hug that person myself. It's often better not to get involved with things that don't concern you. I'm not going to be the hug police.

A member of your "party" being a jerk or creep DOES involve you. I can see the membership team (or course honchos) pulling up in a cart and telling the foursome to get the heck out and don't come back. That's what I would do for my employees.



DW did that to a group that entered her store and were "inappropriate" to one of her employees. It took 10 seconds. "Don't make me go get my baseball bat" she added. They left - and never came back.

 

[aaronc879]

Several people are bringing other cultures into this discussion which is irrelevant. This situation isn't taking place in Europe or Hawaii or any other place where uninvited hugs from strangers is commonplace.

Before retiring I worked several months a year in Mexico where hugging and a kiss on the cheek was normal. I didn't try it with a waitress in the US. And even in Mexico I always let the woman initiate the hug.

These are not strangers though. This is a man giving a hug to a woman he sees often at a CC. If it's just a friendly hug rather than a groping type situation then I don't get the outrage.

Kissing someone on the cheek I would consider far more inappropriate than a friendly hug. I have never once in my life kissed anyone on the cheek that I wasn't in a romantic relationship with while I have given hugs and gotten hugs from acquaintances many times over the years, even some guys. Almost never anything sexual involving a hug with anyone other than a romantic partner.

 

[rodi]

Several people are bringing other cultures into this discussion which is irrelevant. This situation isn't taking place in Europe or Hawaii or any other place where uninvited hugs from strangers is commonplace.

This.

When I was a newbie engineer a new director of engineering was hired. He was my dad's age. He made me hackle the first time one evening when I was working late... He lurked in the doorway to my cube and started talking about how he had an affair with a subordinate at his last job... um... ok... why was he telling me this. He went on a rant about how it was nobody else's business and it shouldn't matter that she was his direct report. We were the only people in that part of the building and it was incredibly awkward.

A few weeks later I was having lunch with some of the other women at work... Turns out he was freely giving un-asked for massages to one of the test techs. He could not keep his eyes off the boobs of a QA manager. And he cornered the documents/blue line drawing clerk in the back room regularly. Always making the women feel uncomfortable. The gal who kept the parts lists/database stuff together was coming up on the end of her 'temp' period, and was in discussions with her manager about coming on as a permanent employee. Her manager reported to this director. The director comes into her office and suggest they 'go for drinks and negotiate her salary". Just then her boyfriend (a cad operator) came in and rescued her. So we all had similar stories. Then we find out he grabbed the rear of the secretary to the president and kept telling dirty jokes to the secretary to the CEO. When those women realized it was not isolated, but pretty much every worker who wasn't on the factory floor had a story about him, they went to the president and CEO.

The director's excuse was that he was Dutch and Americans were too uptight. He was from a hugging culture. He was forced to apologize to all of us. Ironically, he did not know why I was on the list of people to apologize to since he hadn't actually touched me. I reminded him of the conversation about how he felt it was ok to have affairs with underlings, telling me this when I was the only female engineer, and the only there, after hours, and how awkward he was. He was still clueless.

They fired him on his 6 month anniversary... which confirms to me that he had a 6 month contract.

Some men need a clue-hammer wack upside the head. Different cultural background does not forgive acting inappropriate in an American workplace. The power differential is a big deal. In my case it was a boss/subordinate thing. In the case of the golf cart person, it's wealthy/older vs younger, poorer. It's not ok.

 

[dmpi]

It all depends on the situation and the context. Sometimes a hug or touch is just that or it can be construed as something sexual. I would sure hate to see America turn into to Japan where there's no public display of affection.

 

[LateToFIRE]

But the OP wasn't asking about doing the hugging themselves but about someone else hugging others. I wouldn't attack others for giving someone else a hug even if I wouldn't hug that person myself. It's often better not to get involved with things that don't concern you. I'm not going to be the hug police.

It's up to us all to use our own judgement. We only have the OP's description to reference. He was obviously uncomfortable with his friend's behavior and saw a disturbing pattern to that behavior (i.e. targeting only young women employees of the golf club). Just because YOU don't think sexual harassment is a big deal does not make it not a big deal. Not only is it a big deal, it's also illegal even when it is perpetuated by customers. IMO, a look the other way attitude is how a lot of awful things go unchecked.

 

[Koolau]

These are not strangers though. This is a man giving a hug to a woman he sees often at a CC. If it's just a friendly hug rather than a groping type situation then I don't get the outrage.

Kissing someone on the cheek I would consider far more inappropriate than a friendly hug. I have never once in my life kissed anyone on the cheek that I wasn't in a romantic relationship with while I have given hugs and gotten hugs from acquaintances many times over the years, even some guys. Almost never anything sexual involving a hug with anyone other than a romantic partner.

Kissing on the cheek (or more likely, touching cheeks) IS big in the Islands. Both men and women often do it (less so post-Covid.) Of course, it assumes some level of intimacy or familiarity - even guests get this treatment in most cases. YMMV

 

[Midpack]

Lots of things shouldn't exist - but they do.

But I agree - the guy is way out of line and it's up to his buddies to "deal" with it - if for no other reason that it reflects badly on THEM. Tell him "one more time and you're out of the group."

As I've said several times, the other two guys in the foursome aren't going to "deal with it" - it's me or no one. There are up to 20 other guys who have seen the behavior and done nothing as well.

No one is "king" in our foursome so there's no one empowered to deliver on "one more time and you're out of the group." I would expect I'll be the one out of the group, but it wouldn't be my first time dying on a hill. I've done that with eyes wide open before.

IME the world is mostly people who go along to get along, many posts here don't seem to factor that in. Saying the right thing is easy, doing it usually isn't - but I will. The people who do the right thing are exceptions. If that wasn't true, many of societies lingering ills would have been dealt with generations ago. What's the saying, (most) men [& women] lead lives of quiet desperation?

My last post on this thread. Thanks.

 

[Koolau]

As I've said several times, the other two guys in the foursome aren't going to "deal with it" - it's me or no one. There are up to 20 other guys who have seen the behavior and done nothing as well.

No one is "king" in our foursome so there's no one empowered to deliver on "one more time and you're out of the group." I would expect I'll be the one out of the group, but it wouldn't be my first time dying on a hill. I've done that with eyes wide open before.

IME the world is mostly people who go along to get along, many posts here don't seem to factor that in. Saying the right thing is easy, doing it usually isn't - but I will. The people who do the right thing are exceptions. If that wasn't true, many of societies lingering ills would have been dealt with generations ago...

Be the hero. If it means YOU have to drop out of the group, so be it. Some things you let go - others, you make a stand. I would be so off-put by this behavior I'd have to say something or drop out. Only you can decide and I don't envy you the unpleasant situation. My guess. Your buddies will thank you if you take a stand - and they'll back you up. If not - who needs 'em.

 

[punkinhead]

. It's often better not to get involved with things that don't concern you. I'm not going to be the hug police.

Fortunately not everyone takes that approach. Several times I've been in line behind people who started verbally abusing a cashier. I said something every time and put a stop to it. People who are just trying to do their job shouldn't have to take abuse and I'll step up any time I see it.

 

[Sanstar]

I dealt with a similar situation at work. Ended up firing the guy who thought it was OK to hug the younger, cuter nurses at the start and end of his shift. It was a mature nurse who worked with him, and did not get hugs, who reported his behavior to me. Even after several warnings he just couldn’t control this unprofessional behavior.

In any case, I always ask who’s needs are being met with this type of physical behavior. If a person is having a bad moment and reaches out to me for physical contact, I’ll oblige. How young, cute, gender is irrelevant. But otherwise, the rule we all learned in kindergarten about keeping our hands to ourselves applies.

I hope when I am witness to such behavior, no matter what my role/relationship is with perp, I will have the courage to “see something, say something” and “ see something, do something.”

I think it’s accurate and honest to have a 1:1 with the man and let him know how uncomfortable he makes you with his unsolicited hugging/groping of select employees. Would he do this if their father/ husband/ boyfriend were standing next to them? Did he do this when his wife was alive and standing nearby?

OP: your instincts are right and wrong is wrong.

 

[Chuckanut]

Maybe it's just me, but one of my golf regulars makes a habit of hugging (very) young women like servers, and it's not to be friendly IMO. He's 73 divorced, and he's decided it's OK for him to frontal hug the 20 something girl that drives the beverage cart for tips at the golf course we play at. She plays along but I can't believe she appreciates it - he's old enough to be her grandfather. He does it with other young women as well, flirts with them at every opportunity (also seems out of line to me at his age). It seems totally inappropriate to me, but I am sure it would end our friendship if I called him on it no matter how carefully I word it - he has a very short fuse anyway.

There’s no fool like an old fool.

IMO, management should deal with that before they get sued. So maybe a word to whoever runs the establishment would be wise.

 

[easysurfer]

After Midpack does the hero intervention on that old lech, I do hope Midpack doesn't leave us hanging without us knowing a conclusion. But he did mention that he did his last post on this thread, do we may be left just filling in the blanks with our own interpretations.

 

[LateToFIRE]

As I've said several times, the other two guys in the foursome aren't going to "deal with it" - it's me or no one. There are up to 20 other guys who have seen the behavior and done nothing as well.

No one is "king" in our foursome so there's no one empowered to deliver on "one more time and you're out of the group." I would expect I'll be the one out of the group, but it wouldn't be my first time dying on a hill. I've done that with eyes wide open before.

IME the world is mostly people who go along to get along, many posts here don't seem to factor that in. Saying the right thing is easy, doing it usually isn't - but I will. The people who do the right thing are exceptions. If that wasn't true, many of societies lingering ills would have been dealt with generations ago. What's the saying, (most) men [& women] lead lives of quiet desperation?

My last post on this thread. Thanks.

Just want you to know that I 100% get what you are saying. As I stated earlier, I'm not encouraging you to do anything I have not or would not do myself. Only you know how strongly you feel about the issue in question. But, it clearly bothered your conscience enough to bring it up here.

 

[bluelight]

I'll start of by saying kudos to Midpack.

No one should have to put up with that behavior, hard stop.

That your golf buddy preys on the young women who most likely derive most of their income on tips says volumes about him. I understand that you will most likely not receive any support from the others, who while watching this transgression will not speak up in the woman's support, well they are no better than the offender is.

Midpack, I do hope you speak up and show yourself as a better person than those who choose to look the other way.

 

[badatmath]

. . . .
My last post on this thread. Thanks.

So we don't get to hear the result?!?! Darn. Good luck.

 

[Texas Proud]

Just a thought... he is doing this to multiple people.. he is not going to change with just one person saying so...


He MIGHT stop doing it in front of you, but will continue to do it otherwise...


Unless the CC management does something to him he will not be punished in any way... if they threaten to kick him out of the CC if he continues might work... otherwise, nothing...


Also, remember that there are stripper (exotic dancers) who do it for a living and can make good money at it... it is THEIR choice... this one girl might be thinking the same as them, dress to get big tips.. we just do not know.. I would bet that there are some who do NOT want the hug though...

 

[Goldendoodlebug]

I'm calling total BS on this. The only reason it's the truth of the world is because old men have made it so. It shouldn't matter if a woman is serving beers totally naked, there's no excuse for assuming she's for rent or sale. And even less to assume she's good with sexual abuse. Only people who see everything in terms of power would make such an assumption. Time to reexamine your standards. I wold be much prouder to accept the person dressing in whatever matter they choose without making any assumptions about their motives. Now, I might tip a bit more if a woman dressed attractively, but that would be it. A bigger tip, not a feel.

+1

 

[Goldendoodlebug]

this 100%!



Saying a woman should be prepared for the environment is completely ignoring the problem. The environment shouldn’t exist!

+ 1,000

 

[Slater]

She wears the tiny revealing clothes so you guys heavily line the tip-jar....
She knows what shes doing...
Doesnt make what your buddy is doing appropriate though....

 

[calmloki]

After nine pages I just gotta say...

Sounds like someone needs a Biiiiigg hug.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Many posts later to the OP.

Your friend is acting like a creep. Your are right for feeling uncomfortable around his behavior.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

As I've said several times, the other two guys in the foursome aren't going to "deal with it" - it's me or no one. There are up to 20 other guys who have seen the behavior and done nothing as well.

No one is "king" in our foursome so there's no one empowered to deliver on "one more time and you're out of the group." I would expect I'll be the one out of the group, but it wouldn't be my first time dying on a hill. I've done that with eyes wide open before.

IME the world is mostly people who go along to get along, many posts here don't seem to factor that in. Saying the right thing is easy, doing it usually isn't - but I will. The people who do the right thing are exceptions. If that wasn't true, many of societies lingering ills would have been dealt with generations ago. What's the saying, (most) men [& women] lead lives of quiet desperation?

My last post on this thread. Thanks.

Your friend is a creep. Don't approve of his behavior by accepting it.

 

[GenXguy]

It's up to us all to use our own judgement. We only have the OP's description to reference. He was obviously uncomfortable with his friend's behavior and saw a disturbing pattern to that behavior (i.e. targeting only young women employees of the golf club). Just because YOU don't think sexual harassment is a big deal does not make it not a big deal. Not only is it a big deal, it's also illegal even when it is perpetuated by customers. IMO, a look the other way attitude is how a lot of awful things go unchecked.

LOL I never said anything about sexual harassment being a big deal or not - never spoke to that at all in my comment.

I'm talking about the hug that 20 other people witnessed other than the OP and didn't think anything of it. Follow the lead of everyone else - be wise and don't get involved in someone else's affairs.