A Second Vacation Home a Good Thing?

[Meadbh]

2nd home a Money Pit? Not everyone feels that way. Just as some people find they can't afford a time share, some people can't afford a 2nd home. For many people a vacation home or 2nd home is a life style choice that is well worth the cost.

Jim

I didn't say that all second homes are money pits. I said that second homes that sit idle are money pits. And of course, some people are happy to own a money pit. But you can't own a money pit and be LBYM at the same time.

 

[jimnjana]

I didn't say that all second homes are money pits. I said that second homes that sit idle are money pits. And of course, some people are happy to own a money pit. But you can't own a money pit and be LBYM at the same time.

Well, I disagree with that as well. We made a decision not to rent seasonally rent/short term rent our 2nd home after we converted a long time rental property. We don't feel we are throwing money away by taking care of the home. We enjoy the time we spend there and it is worth it to us, it is our choice. Could we be doing something else with the money we spend on our 2nd home? Sure, but we don't want to. At least not at this point in our life.

 

[Brat]

We have owned a vacation home in Sunriver, OR and after that a time-share in Jackson Hole.

Owning a vacation home ties you very tight to one location, owning a time share even in a trading pool is not a money saving venture. Sunriver may be unique in that there is a very strong all season rental demand. Except when the national economy is the pits resales are strong. Frankly, if you can't pay cash for a vacation home you can't aford it.

My advise is to find a vacation house you love to rent and develop a relationship with the owner. Use it regularly. All the advantages of ownership with none of the risks.

I have friends who have gone together to buy a vacation house. My concern is how to unravel those arrangements when it is time to move on.

 

[LOL!]

I like vacation homes quite a lot. But I don't own them. My siblings own them and I get to use them. I guess I developed a relationship with the owners.

 

[kcowan]

There is a big difference between a vacation home as a rental investment and a second home that you use regularly in retirement. I think the OP was talking about the latter. I would say to run the numbers and do what makes sense economically.

Often you can make a deal with an owner on VRBO who has a property as an investment and become a regular seasonal renter for them. This can be the best of both worlds if you find the right owner who will subsidize your seasonal rental.

Anything else is a lifestyle expense.

 

[Danmar]

I agree with Meadbh-it's a lifestyle choice. We own 3 homes and spent about equal times at each last year:97/104/106 days for each. Not sure which ones would be classed as the vacation homes as we love them all. Obviously this can get pretty expensive. We don't have mortgages on any of them and I would think a vacation home should not be highly levered with debt. We don't rent any of them out although we are generous in lending them to close friends and family. If you think this would be an investment think again. These places are very illiquid. However, the feeling of arriving at a different home with your clothes in the closet and your car in the garage is worth the expense IMHO. Advice: go for it if you can afford it.

 

[kcowan]

Danmar, are you looking to make any new friends?

 

[Kroeran]

My rule would be you can't afford it if you are not buying cash.

If you have the cash, it can be a very efficient way to cut out a lot of middle men and the tax man.

The direction I am going in is to think in terms of turning investments into assets you directly use, and this applies to everything.

Lets say you have an extra 200K invested above income requirements. Maybe you will make 5% on that over time, or you may lose it to fraud, or bad emotional control, or just bad luck, then if you do make money, give half to the tax man. What sort of vacation can you buy with the left over money?

Alternatively, put the 200k into a second home. You can rent for 2 weeks without reporting it to the IRS (legally). No matter what happens to the economy, you will have that place to go to. If you own it to use it, you don't care what it is worth.

Another thing, if you own a condo in a gated community in the south, you are very likely to get to know your neighbours, and have a built in social life, which is important when you are sitting in a strange town for a few weeks or months.

lending the second home to friends and family creates a strong bond and builds group cohesion

also, you have to spend your money on something

of course, rent before you buy, attend an HOA

meeting before you buy

if you venture beyond the southern border, monthy expenses may be greatly reduced. the are other issues of course

 

[landover]

Second home in India.

Here is an interesting thread "what-can-i-buy-in-the-hills-for-5-lakhs" about buying a piece on land in Himalayas to escape from Indian summer. This may be little off topic but interesting. I think it would cost around 10 lakhs to construct a basic house on this location. Well one lakh is 100,000 and currency coversion rate is $1=46Rupee, so total cost will be around $30K, land only for $10k.

I am thinking of getting into it but buying land, land use conversion, construction will be big headache, getting water supply, then to secure the property when no one is living there. Good medical care is also 4-8 hours away. Anyway interesting temptation.

 

[Coloradoblonde]

Where in AZ?

I own one in AZ, the other in MN and follow the season. The rentals I have done have always seemed cold and uninviting. Fantanstic deals here in southern AZ.

Ck 6

I love Arizona and was wondering where there are good deals and can you give any examples of prices?

I live in Colorado full time, but have a vacation home and rental in Playa del Carmen, Mexico. The place has appreciated quite a bit during my 12 years of ownership and I've been able to make some money renting it out during those years as well. I wish I had a chance to get down to my vacation home more often, I probably only get down there 2 weeks a year. And it seems like there is more orchestration of new decorating, painting and buying a new ceiling fan when we are down there, so it's not always a "vacation".

So there are pros and cons to 2nd home ownership. My suggestion would be to wait till you really do have time to seriously use a vacation home before you buy. In the meantime, be a happy vacation renter and check out places that you might one day retire or own a 2nd home.

 

[Kroeran]

good advice. We only bought because we are a couple of years away from retirement...and prices and the exchange rate were very favorable.

it would not have made sense if we were younger for the two or three weeks we could get away

while we are in Fort Myers, which has a limited "season", a younger collegue bought in Orlando near the parks, which has a more vibrant short term rental market.

indeed, most of our visits so far have involved extensive shopping and installations, but as I am still in workaholic mode, I find it relaxing to have tasks, at least for the first week of vacation

now that the place is pretty much finished, maybe I will have time to take bocci ball lessons next time down there!

 

[Coloradoblonde]

Kroeran, Fort Myers sound pretty darn awesome about now as the Colorado winter lingers on...

Yes, even thougth I will probably ER this year, I will still have two boys to finish raising so we will probably still be only to go down to our vacation home for a month in the summer (which is when it's a tad HOT and yet the Colorado summers are ideal).

Anyway, I have been dreaming of having my life but "Living LITE" rather than a life so complex and full that you can't even see straight. I think that ER will provide me that.l

 

[Kroeran]

another option is renting on an annual lease. This permits you to have many advantages of owning, without the risk and hassles. You can put your own furniture in the place and call the landlord if there are any problems, and walk away if the HOA blows up.

sometimes the cost of an annual lease is not far from the cost of renting furnished for a few months of the high season. Where I am, some people are renting for less than the cost of the taxes and HOA.

while renting, at some point you will become aware of an ideal unit in an ideal location, that the owner needs to unload fast in the off season...and that is when you buy.

 

[Danmar]

Kroeran-You make many good points. I think a key one is if you can't pay cash you probably can't afford it.

 

[Kroeran]

I have had many and lengthy discussions about this with SWF people.

In my neighbourhood, I am increasingly seeing multi-millionaires giving up the 4 acre 5k+ sq ft houses and stepping down to our little 1.8k sq ft townhouses as a lifestyle decision, chosing simplicity over ego and wanting the social intensity.

and this

google paseo fort myers if you are interested

persons with limited funds are opting for renting mobile homes a block from the beach, which is doable for very low dollars.

for limited income people, one key with Florida is to keep your financial footprint low enough so that you don't get dinged with the confiscatory property tax on non-resident owned property above $100k. ...or become a resident and get inside the tent peeing out, rather than being outside of the tent and getting peed on!

 

[Danmar]

Kroeran-How did you deal with the potential Florida estate/probate tax issues for non residents?

 

[CuppaJoe]

... And in the time you are there, are you really only a transient and can you ever live more like a local?

So owning, setting the place up the way we like it and becoming part of the community sounds better to me. I know that's the expensive route....

How should we define “live more like a local”?

Some celebrities with gobs of money have multiple homes in several cities and out in the country, it’s hard to imagine. Reminds me of the scene in the movie, “The Queen” where QE2 visits the neighbor’s house to see the magnificent animal they shot; just making a casual call.

My grandparents built a summer home on a lake in the ‘20s; there is a lot of continuity for six generations of knowing the neighbors who were part or full-time residents. I spent a couple of days there four years ago and ran into a familiar neighbor who has grown old and eccentric. My cousins winterized the place and stay full-time and are genuine members of the community, helped set up a nature observatory, etc.

 

[Kroeran]

Kroeran-How did you deal with the potential Florida estate/probate tax issues for non residents?

I eat lots of vegetables

the tax laws on this are so wonky and changeable right know, hard to know what to do. I would be more concerned if I was older and there was a lot of capital gains built up....or if I had kids. Wife is covered by me being over insured in the event of an unplanned death.

you also have to be more concerned the higher the absolute value and the higher the proportion of your world estate I believe.

I must confess I don't have a total handle on this. Maybe another reason to be an annual leaseholder rather than an owner of these things...unless it is a place you are parking money in an asset you use.

 

[Danmar]

I have done a bit of research on this. On death you may be liable for estate taxes (up to 45%) on the value of your Florida property (not capital gain) if certain size tests are met. Ways around this relate to putting a mortgage on the property (like everyone else down there). Quite complicated-suggest you look into it more.

 

[Meadbh]

I have done a bit of research on this. On death you may be liable for estate taxes (up to 45%) on the value of your Florida property (not capital gain) if certain size tests are met. Ways around this relate to putting a mortgage on the property (like everyone else down there). Quite complicated-suggest you look into it more.

Ewww, that sucks! Scratch that potential investment off my list......

 

[donheff]

I have done a bit of research on this. On death you may be liable for estate taxes (up to 45%) on the value of your Florida property (not capital gain) if certain size tests are met. Ways around this relate to putting a mortgage on the property (like everyone else down there). Quite complicated-suggest you look into it more.

Ewww, that sucks! Scratch that potential investment off my list......

Estate taxes begin at $3.5M don't they? Aren't they the same everywhere?

 

[kumquat]

Estate taxes begin at $3.5M don't they? Aren't they the same everywhere?

They did: Estate tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For a person dying during 2006, 2007, or 2008, the "applicable exclusion amount" is $2,000,000, so if the sum of the taxable estate plus the "adjusted taxable gifts" made during lifetime equals $2,000,000 or less, there is no federal estate tax to pay. According to the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001, the applicable exclusion will increase to $3,500,000 in 2009, the estate tax is repealed in 2010, but then the act "sunsets" in 2011 and the estate tax reappears with an applicable exclusion amount of only $1,000,000 (unless Congress acts before then).

The issue is quite complex and any interested Canucks can find some information here. As I read it, a Canadian with a $4Million NW and a $500K house in the US would pay 45% of $500K, unless (s)he is clever enough to die in 2010.Since my NW is above the 2011 limit by quite a bit, I won't own any US assets after 2010, much as I would like to.

 

[Danmar]

Kunquat has a good handle on this. I ,like him, will not own US real estate for these reasons. There are ways to reduce the tax using trust and non recourse mortgages. I suggest professional help if a high net worth person wants to own such real estate.

 

[Kroeran]

I do need to look at it more closely. For a person with middle class tastes buying a 180k condo, I don't think it is really an issue, but you do need to pay attention to the changing rules and the proportion the US property is of your world assets.

For myself, with the Canadian dollar at par in spring 08 and condos selling below cost to build, and using it as a place to hide earning assets from income which would have faced full taxation, it was a no brainer. Similar situation this month actually for Canadians thinking of buying US property. If ever, now is still the time.

The other side of the risk is knowing you are going to spend 30 winters in Florida and knowing that the price of real estate is going to double over the next decade.

For high net worth dudes buying 2 million dollar waterfront and all that, you place the house in a dedicated corporation which never dies and the terms of the incorporation direct the property to the next family member or whatever.

 

[Danmar]

Sounds like you got it figured out.