Achieving balance

[Jay_Gatsby]

This thread grows out of one started in the calculators forum. I thought it would be more appropriate to continue it here.

As some of you now know, I've struggled with achieving a degree of balance between saving and living. I'm not miserable, but I am most definitely not happy with how things are going. However, whenever I consider spending a bit of money on something that might bring some enjoyment of life, I'm always asking myself "do I really need it" as autonomic response.

Any idea how to address this problem?

 

[retire@40]

Have you mapped out your goals and budgets on paper? Have you used FIRECalc? Is your goal to retire or become FI at 35 or 60? What specifically is wrong with the way things are going for you?

Without knowing your specifics, I'll jump to an assumption that you're not earning enough to meet your goals. Either get some skills to get a better paying job, start your own business doing something you are good at and enjoy, or get a second job.

I can afford a lot of things now, but I still always ask myself "Do I REALLY need it?"

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Actually, affording things isn't the problem. Having spent over four and a half years working in a mega law firm environment (and three and a half years prior to that working in a couple of other law firms), I managed to put away a nice amount of money. Likewise, I'm looking at various opportunities, including starting my own firm with a couple of partners, now that my time of practicing with a mega law firm is drawing to a close.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, I suffer from the same affliction you do, in that I can't help but ask myself "do I really need it" when I'm considering buying something. Being careful with your money is a sure sign of financial maturity, but sometimes I guess you can go overboard in the financial paranoia department. That's my problem.

In terms of budgeting, I haven't sat down and mapped one out yet. In the past, I used budgeting to make sure I was saving enough. Today, saving enough isn't the issue, but rather spending is (what a problem to have ). I was always raised to buy things only when I could afford them, and then only if I really needed it. My father taught me to use something until it wears out, try to repair it, and if you can't, try to pick up a used one at a cheap price before buying new. Despite being a succesful physician himself, he repairs his cheap tennis shoes with "shoe goo" when they begin to deteriorate, and thinks duct tape and superglue are the greatest inventions since the light bulb.

 

[FlowGirl]

I think this is a very interesting issue.  A related question is "How important is ER?" to you. For some people it is essential , while less so for others.  My spouse and I are definitely the latter, we enjoy our life immensely and are excited about each and every day, so for us ER is simply icing on the cake of an already good life.  I think there's some cause and effect there, but I also realize that the enjoyment may dminish at any time.  I also realize that the closer we get to ER the more important it may become regardless of how much we enjoy our current life.

Anyway,  I don't think this problem just pertains to those of us who are pre-FIRE, as those who have already crossed the ER finish line also have to think about trade-offs between spending "now" while they're relatively healthy, and saving for their days in the nursing home.

Here are some guidelines I use when deciding whether to live for today or save for tomorrow:

1) Is this something I can only do right now?  If I don't spend the money now will I have to wait a long time for a similar opportunity?

   For the spouse and I, a lot of our travelling falls into this category since we're planning on kids soon and we don't count on being able to take a toddler trekking through the jungles around Chang Mai.  We decided to spend money on more exotic trips now and save the less arduous (and cheaper) local camping trips for when we have kids.  I made the same decision when it came to graduate school - I was offered a scholarship at a top university and thought if I turned it down I may not get offered admission in future years.  The enjoyment I got out of the program was alone worth the loss of 2 years salary, even though it may not pay in the long run.  I'm glad I took it because the program has gotten a lot more competitive in the past several years.

2)  Is this something I must invest in early to get maximum benefit from?

The most obvious example of this is health care and fitness.  Skimping on a gym membership or fitness equipment or simply the time to take a walk doesn't really work, because you can't neglect yourself now and then catch up in retirement.  I think spending money on hobbies pre-retirement is also important for the same reason - you don't suddenly emerge as an interesting person in retirement if all you've done is work 60 hours a week.  As a specific example - my husband spent a good amount on a triathlon bicycle because its something he enjoys - sure he could have until he was 40 or 50  to start training for triathlons, but it would be a lot more difficult and he would have missed out on the health benefits, friendships, etc.  Next year I plan to spend money on a guitar and lessons for the same reasons - it takes time to learn how to play, and I think I will benefit from starting now rather than later.

3)  Is this a purchase I may regret?

If you think you may regret spending the money, then its probably wise not to do so.  I have never regretted spending money on travel, so when I'm on the fence about taking a trip I remind myself of this fact.  Spending money on other things (ex. clothes) - I have sometimes regretted, so I remind myself of this too and try to put off buying for as long as possible.

Finally, the idea that my spouse and I may work hard, scrimp and save, and deprive ourselves in order to ER only to have one of us kick the bucket the day (or week, or year) after we retire is a sobering thought.  For some reason that idea scares me a lot more than never getting to ER.  Again, maybe if it were possible to ER sooner than our early 40's I might think differently, but I now have a well developed sense of my own mortality and fortunately this has balanced my prudent nature and prevented me  from delaying gratification too long.  Right now the spouse and I plan to save for  ER in a way that gives us a lot of enjoyment and balance along the way.  Hopefully, it will work out, although I plan to leave a lot of room for mid-course corrections just in case we start leaning to one side or the other (not enough fun or not enough money).  Only time will tell if it will work.

 

[elb]

Basically, what i've done is set up savings/investing through automatic withdrawal from my paycheck/account. All my investments for the year are DCA'ed biweekly, automagically.

I've set the amounts to provide a high probability of success via FireCalc and other online engines. This will (hopefully) get me to my magic # which is the # i've decided I need to ER.

Everything left over is spent with abandon

You don't want to give up a life now, for a life later.

 

[retire@40]

In terms of budgeting, I haven't sat down and mapped one out yet.  In the past, I used budgeting to make sure I was saving enough.  Today, saving enough isn't the issue, but rather spending is (what a problem to have ).  I was always raised to buy things only when I could afford them, and then only if I really needed it.  My father taught me to use something until it wears out, try to repair it, and if you can't, try to pick up a used one at a cheap price before buying new.  Despite being a succesful physician himself, he repairs his cheap tennis shoes with "shoe goo" when they begin to deteriorate, and thinks duct tape and superglue are the greatest inventions since the light bulb.

I've said it before: It's harder to know how to spend your money than it is to know how to earn it.

I think after you do the following you will have a better grip on your financial situation:

1. Create a budget
2. Create a net-worth spreadsheet listing out each investment with corresponding YTD ROI.
3. Prepare a projection of your net worth using actual monthly savings from your budget. This projection will help you estimate when you will have enough net worth to be FI. Your net worth at FI should be about 25 times your expenses at that point.

As long as you have a working plan and adjust it every few months, it should put you more at ease with your saving/spending habits.

 

[brewer12345]

I struggle with this issue regularly, so I definately "feel your pain". I am a pretty long ways away from ER (probably 11 years in an optimistic scenario, more likely about 14-15 years in a more consrvative projection), so every incremental dollar poses the question: do I try to speed my departure, or live a bit more for today? We don't live like paupers by any stretch of the imagination, but we definately spend time being careful with our money.

I don't think I will ever truly have deat with this fundamental quandry, but thus far I have made peace with it. My spreadsheeting suggests that there isn't a whole lot I can do to materially speed up my FIRE date unless I really dump in loads of extra savings. Since this would require me to either live an unacceptably low standard of living or take a money-focused job that would make me miserable, it isn't likely that I will escape before my early to mid 40s. Knowing that I am unlikely to really change my situation by spending the incremental dollar gives me a bit more freedom to treat extra dough as an opportunity to live a little.

I also think that being a goodly way along on the path to FIRE adds a lot to one's flexibility in the job market. Knowing that I will pretty much get where I want to be by 45 anyway makes i a lot easier to consider taking a more interesting or higher risk/higher reward job, or starting up a business if I so choose. In its own way, the financial flexibility afforded by a sizable stash starts yielding benefits long before we are at the point of FIRE.

 

[azanon]

I now have a new favorite poster; Flowgirl. Sorry Mikey.

That's some good stuff Flowgirl, and i'll take that advise to heart.

 

[Hyperborea]

I think this is a very interesting issue.  A related question is "How important is ER?" to you. For some people it is essential , while less so for others.  My spouse and I are definitely the latter, we enjoy our life immensely and are excited about each and every day, so for us ER is simply icing on the cake of an already good life.  I think there's some cause and effect there, but I also realize that the enjoyment may dminish at any time.

There may be some cause and effect but I don't think that it's "enjoyment of life" or lack thereof that is the cause rather it is "enjoyment of the job" or lack thereof. That does seem to hit most people at some point even if the job was initially one that they loved. It's not just the company or the working conditions either as the longer one works in a certain field the fewer truly interesting problems there are to work on. You'll find that what you are working on is the 126th minor variation on a problem.

I would think that those who have no "enjoyment of life" will have a difficult retirement as they will be retiring to what? They will have run away from work to find that they have nothing else to do.

The whole how much to spend now vs. later is just a big optimization problem. The only difficulty is figuring out your utility function.

 

[windedhare]

I try to remember my definition of life's purpose is the pursuit of happiness. And if you are a disciplined savor, educated investor, you do need to

 

[Nords]

Worry constructively.  Does it bring you value?

It's hard to reduce emotions to their dollar equivalent. Frequently the proportions are inversely skewed. For example,
- Losing half-a-percent of a six-figure retirement portfolio in that day's stock-market returns-- ~$4900-- insignificant, even if you think about it.
- Giving $20 to your kid and watching it burn a hole in her pocket-- mildly annoying but not unexpected.
- Missing the expiration date on your 50%-off lunch coupon-- ouch.
- Finding a penny in the parking lot-- priceless!

My father-in-law also points out that in ER your time is worthless. Your hourly rate is $zero, yet time is your most precious asset because you can do what others would immediately dismiss as unprofitable tedious labor. This causes quite a bit of familial strife when spouse wants to have a landscaper re-sod the side yard (while we're at the beach) and FIL wants to transplant zoysia plugs one flat at a time from his yard. The solution seemed simple to me-- have her pay him to plug the yard while we're at the beach-- but the suggestion was a non-starter.

So we compromised. He sprouts cuttings & seedlings and I plant them as our yard borders. He's happy, she's happy, I get plenty of sunshine & exercise. And we can still argue about the zoysia side yard, although I'm about to turn them both in to Dr. Phil.

After decades of penny-pinching, I've learned to unclench my fingers from the dollar bills. I can't stop keeping score but I've learned to keep my mouth shut. I don't practice frugality on the family (too much) but I can still practice it in my personal life and hope that someday my selfless example for posterity (and our progeny) will nominate me for sainthood.

The truth is that many of my spending decisions are made on value. Will it make me happy to think that I practically stole this possession at that price? Will it return entertainment value all out of proportion to its cost? Will it be a hassle to get to the vacation destination? Will I have to wash, feed, clothe, vaccinate, insure, or entertain it?

I've made a multi-year obsession over calculators like FIRECalc & FinancialEngines, but the effort has helped me to settle down. I particularly enjoy this board's detailed budget & SWR analyses because I can keep a finger on the pulse without having to devote more worry to a problem that's already been solved. Of course I still fret about the cost/benefit ratio of LTC insurance, but spouse claims that she's discovered a new 9MM healthcare plan that will take care of all our worries.

My big leap forward has been to decide to stop fretting about occasional purchases under $10. It's an arbitrary tripwire with arbitrary settings, but it works for me and I can do it almost every time now. It certainly pleases the neighborhood door-to-door fundraisers...

 

[haha]

I now have a new favorite poster;  Flowgirl.   Sorry Mikey.

That's OK man, I kind of dig her myself

Mikey

 

[FlowGirl]

That's OK man, I kind of dig her myself

Mikey

Thanks azanon and mikey! I'll try not to let my new found popularity go to my head

 

[dex]

As some of you now know, I've struggled with achieving a degree of balance between saving and living.  I'm not miserable, but I am most definitely not happy with how things are going.  However, whenever I consider spending a bit of money on something that might bring some enjoyment of life, I'm always asking myself "do I really need it" as autonomic response.

Any idea how to address this problem?

Here is another viewpoint that may help move you beyond this point. Have you considered simply accepting this aspect of yourself so that you can move on?

Where does this idea come from? I knew a woman who had cancer and as you can guess she was worried about dying. All her friends and family were saying, you will beat it, have faith, modern medicine is great - it will help you; etc. One day her therapist simply said: yes you may die. It wasn't until she was allowed to have this emotion that she was able to deal with her fear of dying and move on. The fear of dying was delt with and she was able to emotionally better deal with what she needed to do. And in a small way enjoy life more.

The quandary you are posing reminds me of people who grew up during the depression. They worked and saved. Some could not stop working even after they didn't need to. Those people couldn't spend money on themselves but could raise a family and give money to those in need. Were they unhappy? I don't know.

So the basic thought is: Accept this aspect of yourself and don't let those aspects of yourself that make you happy be overshaddowed by this spending concern. Let those other things that make you happy blossom.

---------------------
I see I have a message on this board - How do I read it? I can't find that function

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Re: Worry constructively.  Does it bring you value

The truth is that many of my spending decisions are made on value. Will it make me happy to think that I practically stole this possession at that price? Will it return entertainment value all out of proportion to its cost? Will it be a hassle to get to the vacation destination? Will I have to wash, feed, clothe, vaccinate, insure, or entertain it?

I ask myself the exact same questions.

I've made a multi-year obsession over calculators like FIRECalc & FinancialEngines, but the effort has helped me to settle down. I particularly enjoy this board's detailed budget & SWR analyses because I can keep a finger on the pulse without having to devote more worry to a problem that's already been solved.

I don't have that obsession, and as I posted previously, I haven't seriously sat down and established a clear budget that can thereafter be washed through FIRECalc (I've only played with rough numbers). Unfortunately, being only 34, it's hard to make any kind of clear predictions of income and spending habits in retirement. For example, if I start a law firm with a former colleague of mine, I have absolutely no idea what my income level is going to be. I suppose I could adopt a reasonable savings figure as a baseline, namely, one that I could achieve if I was working in a position that paid half what my current one pays. Likewise, if I move in with my girlfriend, my expenses are likely to be reduced by another $12k+ a year (yet if I do that, there will be another expense taking the form of a round piece of metal with an overpriced piece of rock in it). Again, I could probably adopt some sort of baseline for expenses, which might be the difference between single person expenses, and married expenses.

My big leap forward has been to decide to stop fretting about occasional purchases under $10. It's an arbitrary tripwire with arbitrary settings, but it works for me and I can do it almost every time now.

Now this is interesting. Everyone I know who follows the LBYM mantra says to keep your eye on such purchases, since they can and do add up. However, I suppose that if one has already earmarked ~20-25% of one's gross income for savings, then such purchases are "sanity" money that allows for a bit of life enjoyment.

 

[John Galt]

Well, we take no newspapers or magazines unless they
are free. Everything else is cancelled. And, we have no
cable or dish TV. However, I do
have a cell phone that I rarely use and I can not
pass up one of those Frappacinos (Starbucks and milk
blend) that sell around here for around $1.60 for
9 ozs. Dropping the cell would save $25 per month
and skipping the Starbucks would save $50 per month
easily. Let's see, that's $900 per year. Why at a 5%
return, I'd need to have $18,000 tied up to produce that. Hell, I could buy a nice bass boat for that. And, that's more than I make in a year. I just can't stand keeping track of every nickle and I think I am smart enough to see if I was
getting in trouble. I recall a post (I think on this site)
where some guy always ordered water when he ate out. As I recall it was not because he liked water, but
to save the $2.00 they charge for a coke. It's okay with
me, but I can't do it.

John Galt

 

[unclemick]

I gave my money to a mysterious stranger - a mythical dude who would show up at retirement and partied/lived/chased performance in stocks,real estate, etc on the rest.

That 'guy' who received all the DCA money showed up at age 49 and funded 80-90% of our ER.

 

[flipstress]

I see I have a message on this board - How do I read it? I can't find that function

On the top right of the screen, where it says "Hey, dex you have # message(s)", just click on the word message(s) and it will take you to your inbox.

 

[GTM]

Well, we take no newspapers or magazines unless they
are free.  Everything else is cancelled.  And, we have no
cable or dish TV.  However, I do
have a cell phone that I rarely use and I can not
pass up one of those Frappacinos (Starbucks and milk
blend) that sell around here for around $1.60 for
9 ozs.  Dropping the cell would save $25 per month
and skipping the Starbucks would save $50 per month
easily.  Let's see, that's $900 per year.  Why at a 5%
return, I'd need to have $18,000 tied up to produce that.  Hell, I could buy a nice bass boat for that.  And, that's more than I make in a year.  I just can't stand keeping track of every nickle and I think I am smart enough to see if I was
getting in trouble.  I recall a post (I think on this site)
where some guy always ordered water when he ate out.  As I recall it was not because he liked water, but
to save the $2.00 they charge for a coke.  It's okay with
me, but I can't do it.

John Galt

John , how can any fan of the Sopranos live without cable?

John Galt


"From Raddr's Early Retirement and Financial Strategy Board"

John Galt
_________________
Smaller version of Rush Limbaugh or Tony
Soprano without the tact.

 

[John Galt]

Excellent question. I used to have a friend with HBO who taped every episode for me. Alas, he moved and now no tapes. However, my DW or someone gives me
a boxed set every year, so I have the complete first
4 years and I also catch the show when I travel.

John Galt aka "Little Tony"

 

[Bob_Smith]

However, I do have a cell phone that I rarely use...  Dropping the cell would save $25 per month...

Hey John,

If you're only using the cell for emergencies, go to Sam's Club and buy a Tracfone. You get a cell phone, car & battery chargers, 1 year of service, and 20 minutes of airtime for $60. Then come back here BEFORE you activate and someone will "refer" you to Tracfone and you'll get another 100 minutes (and so will they). If you are just using the phone for emergencies, you'll have two hours of airtime and everything else you'll need for a year. Total cost for the year is $60 vs. the $300 you're paying. You'll free up $20 per month without giving up a thing. Then go sign up for Netflix or Blockbuster for $18/month and you'll have access to the Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Oz, and anything else you want. I agree with you - the Sopranos is a great show. We're just starting season 4 (Netflix).

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Speaking of cell phones, I find them to be more of an annoyance than a convenience. I'm of the belief that if someone needs to reach me, they can leave a message on my office or home phone (as appropriate) and I'll call them back. Emergencies seemingly are the only exception to this rule.

 

[JOhn Galt]

I cancelled my cell phone this morning. When (if) I decide I need one again I am going with the Tracphone.
Sounds like a great deal and I will save a bunch of money.

John Galt

 

[GTM]

Hey John,

I agree with you - the Sopranos is a great show. We're just starting season 4 (Netflix).

Great show 'Fuggedaboudit!'

 

[Martha]

I am not a big TV watcher but there are a few shows I really like, including the Sopranos, Six Feet Under, and the Jean Luc Picard Star Trek. I have to restrain myself from using cliches from these shows at work. I have been so tempted to say "make it so" to my staff. Or when lawyers are having a disageement I want to invite them to a "sit-down". They would think I am a goof, I know.