Adventures in Ketosis (long)

[audreyh1]

You may want to look into cauliflower. It's become sorta trendy, and because of this, it's available frozen in a variety of forms like riced and pureed. My DW prefers to make these herself but sometimes buys them and both are pretty good.

They are especially useful for accompanying main dishes that are naturally low carb, but are "usually" eat with rice or mashed potatoes. E.g. no-bread meat loaf with pureed cauliflower on the side.

Regular cauliflower and broccoli are basically our main "regular cooked vegetables" in our house now. They are especially tasty with butter or cheese...

I am using cauliflower. If I eat a large serving, which is typical of me, it still adds up. Although it may be my favorite cauliflower recipe is signaling almost twice the carbs, even though I’m only adding a little garlic, olive oil, cilantro and curry powder. Hmmm need to examine that recipe.

Broccoli however - easy for me to get high carbs. 6 oz serving cooked broccoli, 6.6g net carbs. So I’m generally eating smaller servings. This will relax when I increase my carb limit, plus I’ll eat a bit more fruit and a little more wine .

 

[aja8888]

My last year triglycerides was 174 which startled me. This year it was down to 142 which is fine by normal standards. So I don’t think that’s extremely high by traditional measures. The doc proposed 80 target was new to me.

Interesting thread, thanks.

On the lipid panel, for years now mine has been "normal" and no doc has ever recommended any meds (statins, etc). My triglycerides are at 60 (5/18/2109 test) and seem to be always in that range. I am not on ANY diet routine. I guess it just goes to show us how the gene pool reflects a lot of what we are to become. My gene makeup at age 75+ seems to allow good (normal) lipid panel result.

Also, all other test results from blood tests are within normal ranges. Lucky, I guess.

 

[audreyh1]

Interesting thread, thanks.

On the lipid panel, for years now mine has been "normal" and no doc has ever recommended any meds (statins, etc). My triglycerides are at 60 (5/18/2109 test) and seem to be always in that range. I am not on ANY diet routine. I guess it just goes to show us how the gene pool reflects a lot of what we are to become. My gene makeup at age 75+ seems to allow good (normal) lipid panel result.

Also, all other test results from blood tests are within normal ranges. Lucky, I guess.

Yes, I would say you’ve had a life free of metabolic disease. And now you’re old enough to avoid any new medications! Or at least one would hope so.

 

[bmcgonig]

When I'm home, I frequently grab a spoonful of coconut oil as an instant snack. It's a great way to get some healthy fat in you. DW will do this too on occasion, but she prefers a piece of Kerrygold butter (I love that too). Important to remember that if your protein consumption gets too high your body will simply convert it to carbs.

How much protein is appropriate? I've heard everything from 0.8g to 1.6g per kg

 

[bmcgonig]

Interesting thread, thanks.

On the lipid panel, for years now mine has been "normal" and no doc has ever recommended any meds (statins, etc). My triglycerides are at 60 (5/18/2109 test) and seem to be always in that range. I am not on ANY diet routine. I guess it just goes to show us how the gene pool reflects a lot of what we are to become. My gene makeup at age 75+ seems to allow good (normal) lipid panel result.

Also, all other test results from blood tests are within normal ranges. Lucky, I guess.

If I remember also your PSA was almost 0 or something like that? You're a healthy specimen [emoji16]

 

[audreyh1]

How much protein is appropriate? I've heard everything from 0.8g to 1.6g per kg

Dietdoctor site has this recommendation:

Guidelines for individualized protein intake
Taking into account the different positions among keto and low-carb experts, we recommend a protein intake of 1.2-1.7 grams per kg of body weight for most people.

In a few cases, even higher protein intake of up to 2.0 grams of protein per kg of body weight may be beneficial, at least temporarily. This would include people who are underweight or healing from illness, injury, or surgery and, in some cases, people who are very physically active (more on this in the exercise section below).

May not be accessible without subscription - https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/protein

 

[ShokWaveRider]

With all this talk about LCHF and Ketosis, I think it would be nice if someone started a Low carb Recipe post. I personally find it very difficult to find recipes that are substantial enough on their own. They always seem too little, especially if trying to keep one's net carbs to around ~30g a day. I can easily eat 8oz of Cauliflower and Broccoli with my main evening meal, say with an 8oz pork chop or chicken breast. That is like 25 carbs just there. Is eating like a mouse required for LCHF diets?

 

[audreyh1]

With all this talk about LCHF and Ketosis, I think it would be nice if someone started a Low carb Recipe post. I personally find it very difficult to find recipes that are substantial enough on their own. They always seem too little, especially if trying to keep one's net carbs to around ~30g a day. I can easily eat 8oz of Cauliflower and Broccoli with my main evening meal, say with an 8oz pork chop or chicken breast. That is like 25 carbs just there. Is eating like a mouse required for LCHF diets?

8 oz cooked broccoli, that would be 9g net carbs. Pork chop 0, so your example is 9g net carbs, not 25g. Are you counting total carbs instead of net carbs? That makes a huge difference.

A lot of people starting LCHF are really afraid of eating fat, so they try to stick to lean proteins, and limit oils, and avoid dairy fats as they’d been taught on low fat diets.

It’s very easy to add fats to your daily meals and feel satisfied. Fat is very satiating. You can stick to non animal fats if you prefer and use source like nuts, avocados, olives, olive oil, coconut oil. If you are OK with animal sources you can also enjoy eggs, mayonnaise, butter, full-fat dairy and cheese as well as fattier cuts of meat, chicken legs and chicken skin, fatty fish. Drizzle a bunch of olive oil over your vegetables!.

The point is high fat as well as low carb. If you skimp on the fat it’s not going to work because you’ll be starving.

Here is an example of the kind of support you can find online including loads of health info and recipes: https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto

 

[braumeister]

How much protein is appropriate? I've heard everything from 0.8g to 1.6g per kg

Phinney (who probably knows more about this than anyone on the planet) recommends 1.2 up to 1.75 g per kg of reference body weight (that means a weight in the middle of the recommended range for your height). Another way to look at is enough to provide 10-15% of your daily energy need.

 

[bmcgonig]

Here's a perfect meal especially if you like fat!

Almost 50% Fat
20% carbs
13% protein


Oops...I can't get the photo to upload. It's a 100g bar of Lindt 85% Dark Chocolate!!

 

[bmcgonig]

It seem like a lot of people starting LCHF are really afraid of eating fat, so they try to stick to lean proteins, and limit oils, and avoid dairy fats.

It’s very easy to add fats to your daily meals and feel satisfied. Fat is very satiating. You can stick to non animal fats if you prefer and use source like nuts, avocados, olives, olive oil, coconut oil. If you are OK with animal sources you can also enjoy eggs, mayonnaise, butter, full-fat dairy and cheese as well as fattier cuts of meat, chicken legs and chicken skin, fatty fish. Drizzle a bunch of olive oil over your vegetables!.

The point is high fat as well as low carb. If you skimp on the fat it’s not going to work because you’ll be starving.

Here is an example of the kind of support you can find online including loads of health info and recipes: https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto

All my life I've felt guilty if I eat the skin on a chicken leg. I guess it's been drummed into me that its unhealthy. Very hard to disabuse myself of that notion [emoji52].

Does this almost makes KFC healthy except for the transfats?

 

[audreyh1]

All my life I've felt guilty if I eat the skin on a chicken leg. I guess it's been drummed into me that its unhealthy. Very hard to disabuse myself of that notion [emoji52].

Does this almost makes KFC healthy except for the transfats?

It is psychologically very difficult for many Americans to eat more fat. We’d all had “fat is evil, especially animal and saturated fat” drummed into our heads for decades. But IMO unless you can move past that mentality, trying a ketogenic diet is going to be an unpleasant experience.

No - KFC the totally breading blows it carb wise. Do they offer any non-breaded alternatives? If fried, you do have to worry about the oils they use. Roasted - less bad. Personally I don’t touch fast food. Dr. Westman does have patients using mostly fast food and successful on a ketogenic diet. He works with whatever the patient is able to do, and has a successful program. He is very non-judgmental about it.

Looks like KFC offers a grilled chicken option at 0 carbs.
Fast food options https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/14-low-carb-fast-foods#section15

 

[audreyh1]

Here's a perfect meal especially if you like fat!

Almost 50% Fat
20% carbs
13% protein


Oops...I can't get the photo to upload. It's a 100g bar of Lindt 85% Dark Chocolate!!

74% (170/230) of calories from fat - yeah that meets my 70% target. From the Lindt site US bar same name https://www.lindtusa.com/wcsstore/L...tional/nutritional-information-SKU-392851.pdf

9g of net carbs per serving (4 squares). So two servings you’re at 18 g net carbs, yet have consumed only 460 calories. Hmmm - I don’t think that will work.

I did add 85% chocolate to my diet a few weeks ago. But I eat 1/4 to 1/8 the listed serving, so the additional net carbs is more like 1-2g.

 

[skipro33]

Had a protein-style Double Double w/grilled onions last night.


https://www.nutritionix.com/i/in-n-...-onion-protein-style/513fc998927da704080048e5

 

[bmcgonig]

Had a protein-style Double Double w/grilled onions last night.


https://www.nutritionix.com/i/in-n-...-onion-protein-style/513fc998927da704080048e5

Here's something that baffles me. When I add up the total number grams of protein+carb+fat in these things I always find that they add up to way less than the serving size. What am I missing? Is there something that they don't mention?

 

[skipro33]

Here's something that baffles me. When I add up the total number grams of protein+carb+fat in these things I always find that they add up to way less than the serving size. What am I missing? Is there something that they don't mention?

The difference in weight is water or other stuff that is not protein, carb, fat, sugar or fiber and has no nutritional value of effect.

 

[audreyh1]

Here's something that baffles me. When I add up the total number grams of protein+carb+fat in these things I always find that they add up to way less than the serving size. What am I missing? Is there something that they don't mention?

Water?

Agree with skipro33.

 

[mpeirce]

74% (170/230) of calories from fat - yeah that meets my 70% target. From the Lindt site US bar same name https://www.lindtusa.com/wcsstore/L...tional/nutritional-information-SKU-392851.pdf

9g of net carbs per serving (4 squares). So two servings you’re at 18 g net carbs, yet have consumed only 460 calories. Hmmm - I don’t think that will work.

I did add 85% chocolate to my diet a few weeks ago. But I eat 1/4 to 1/8 the listed serving, so the additional net carbs is more like 1-2g.

I sometimes get the Aldi Moser Roth Dark 85% Cocoa chocolate. It comes in a package of 5 bars. Each bar is:

12g fat
9g carb - 3 g fiber, so 6 g of carbs
3g protein

It's not super bitter chocolate, but I've gotten to like it. It's not for all the time snacking, but for someone like me who is basically maintaining now, it's a nice treat. I wouldn't eat this is you are just getting started with a Keto/LCHF diet.

 

[audreyh1]

A bit OT, but thanks for this! I've used RequestaTest and they've been great, but it's good to have an alternative with different test "packages".

I figure since you are going straight to the lab to get the test done, the web site doesn’t matter, so go with the cheaper one.

We haven’t used them, but if DH wants his fasting insulin, we’ll try them. I just found them searching for fasting insulin testing.

 

[audreyh1]

When I'm home, I frequently grab a spoonful of coconut oil as an instant snack. It's a great way to get some healthy fat in you. DW will do this too on occasion, but she prefers a piece of Kerrygold butter (I love that too). Important to remember that if your protein consumption gets too high your body will simply convert it to carbs.

We noticed Spaniards drizzle top quality EVOO over their foods at the table, and it’s great! So we adopted it.

I discovered that high quality olive oil drizzled over goat cheese is outstandingly delicious.

 

[braumeister]

I've been eating Lindt 85% dark chocolate bars for years.

I just have ⅛ of the bar per day (one square), so for me it's roughly:
6g fat
4.5g carb
1.5g protein

But what a nice little treat!

And for those who prefer a different kind of diet, I should point out that chocolate is definitely a "plant-based food."

 

[audreyh1]

I've been eating Lindt 85% dark chocolate bars for years.

I just have ⅛ of the bar per day (one square), so for me it's roughly:
6g fat
4.5g carb
1.5g protein

But what a nice little treat!

And for those who prefer a different kind of diet, I should point out that chocolate is definitely a "plant-based food."

Cocoa is also extremely high in nutrients and minerals. Higher even than the most nutritious meat liver, as well as vegetables.

But people don’t usually eat 100g of it in one sitting.

 

[bmcgonig]

I've been eating Lindt 85% dark chocolate bars for years.

I just have ⅛ of the bar per day (one square), so for me it's roughly:
6g fat
4.5g carb
1.5g protein

But what a nice little treat!

And for those who prefer a different kind of diet, I should point out that chocolate is definitely a "plant-based food."

I used to eat a fair amount of sugary substances and the 85% was almost sour. Now that I've cut way back on sugars, I find it quite sweet!

 

[Golden sunsets]

Thanks for sharing the long version! Great results!

I’m actually expecting my LDL and Total Cholesterol to go up a bit, which is apparently not unusual on this diet, but my HDL should go up even more, improving the overall lipid ratios. In the meantime I am expecting my triglycerides to drop like a rock. My HDL went from 90 to 103. My HDL has histoically been off the charts, so I don't pay too much attention to a change like the results in June. I did not realize that LDL might increase on the ketogenic diet. Do you know why?

I am very interested in seeing the new numbers. I will share the changes here. Good. I'll be interested. DH has always had elevated trigs. His trigs in April were 174, but his doc did not suggest any changes. He is on a statin as well. And his HDL has always been abormally low (48). But the statin keeps his LDL hovering around 100, so his ratio is in the high 3's. If we stay on the maintenance version of this diet, it will be interesting to see what his trigs are at his next annual physical.

I’m interested that you prefer not to share your diet with your Docs. Are you concerned about weeping and gnashing of teeth or warnings of impending death? If you can stand it, it seems like it would be useful for your doctors to know that your results are due at to your dietary changes, otherwise they will assume it’s their great drugs, even though you halved the dose. I didn't intentionally keep the info from them. I just haven't spoken to either of them, since the most recent test results. I only see the cardiologist once a year and my PCP's nurse communicated the June results and all clear signal to me via phone and letter with a copy of the test results. I will discuss when I see him at my next annual in January. My cardiologist did make one comment though when the stent was placed. He did not restrict my diet, but did mention that I shouldn't take that as a license to lean toward a high fat diet, so it will be interesting to see what his take is on the ketogenic diet.

I am also going on a long European trip in a couple of months. I plan to stick to the ketogenic diet by continuing to avoid grains, starchy veggies, sugar/sweets and to strictly limit fruit. Fortunately Spain and France have lots of low-carb high-fat regional goodies (we’ll be traveling in French duck country). I’m taking my meter and strips. The strips are so easy, the meter as backup if the strips indicate big drops. Ooh sounds like fun. We were in France last September and took advantage of their renowned cuisine and the wine (LOL). I remember one terrific meal in particular in Nice where we chose duck with seared foi gras on top. I think the off limits items that I want to consume during our stay lean more toward croissants, deserts and perhaps a little pasta.

Thank God my ketogenic diet does not forbid wine. Although I have been drinking in very small amounts with meals and only a couple of times a week. I think that will increase in Europe . Fortunately, sparkling wine and dry red and white wines are very low carb, cognac is zero carb. Not going to go overboard. Yep. Thank goodess this diet doesn't prohibit wine, like so many others do.

.

 

[audreyh1]

My HDL went from 90 to 103. My HDL has histoically been off the charts, so I don't pay too much attention to a change like the results in June. I did not realize that LDL might increase on the ketogenic diet. Do you know why?

Some folks on a ketogenic diet see a small rise in LDL along with the rise in HDL, at least initially. Any additional LDL is apparently the big fluffy (not dense) kind that is not associated with sticking to arterial walls. The other lipid numbers and blood sugar show dramatic improvements indicating much improved health, but sometimes the doctor only zooms in on the LDL, ignoring the other improvements. This can be a source of frustration the patient.

I can’t at the moment explain why this occurs with a ready reference, but scientists are still learning about the LDL and metabolism. LDL has a very important role in the immune system and fighting infection. It may not be the “bad” cholesterol after all.

I didn't intentionally keep the info from them. I just haven't spoken to either of them, since the most recent test results. I only see the cardiologist once a year and my PCP's nurse communicated the June results and all clear signal to me via phone and letter with a copy of the test results. I will discuss when I see him at my next annual in January. My cardiologist did make one comment though when the stent was placed. He did not restrict my diet, but did mention that I shouldn't take that as a license to lean toward a high fat diet, so it will be interesting to see what his take is on the ketogenic diet.

It’s great that all your lipids improved.

It appears that in your case the diet warning was about the stent. If your doctor warned you against a high fat diet he may not approve - but you don’t know.

Personally, I am not concerned about my LDL, total cholesterol, or health problems from eating a high fat diet.

Ooh sounds like fun. We were in France last September and took advantage of their renowned cuisine and the wine (LOL). I remember one terrific meal in particular in Nice where we chose duck with seared foi gras on top. I think the off limits items that I want to consume during our stay lean more toward croissants, deserts and perhaps a little pasta

We have travelled to Europe annually for the last 6 years, so I’ve had plenty of croissants and other European pastries (my favorite was pain au chocolat) and so it’s not a biggie for me. I’m generally not into desserts either, as I don’t have a big sweet tooth. Maybe I can get cheese for dessert.

Totally ready for duck, foie gras, duck fat - I may have to sneak a taste of fries in duck fat. DH and I are both crazy about duck - I order in bulk from Maple Leaf Farms. But there are so many great options in Europe of fats, meat, poultry, seafood, salads, vegetables and cheeses, I know I’ll be eating very well even low carb.

Just so you know, from what I’ve read, glucose response on a ketogenic diet gets worse, simply because you are eating so low carb/sugar and your body is focused on burning fats (fat adapted). So you could experience a high blood sugar response to a sudden high carb meal and feel bad. Thus it’s best to transition gradually, to give your body time to adjust to a higher carb diet, just like you needed time to adjust to a very low carb diet.