Amazon Sidewalk

[Chuckanut]

I thought people who own Amazon and Ring devices might like to know more about Amazon's plan for the Sidewalk service.

People who own certain Amazon and Ring products should have received the email concerning Amazon's new Sidewalk network of connected devices. Note: See below for a list of devices that will work with Sidewalk.

It is an attempt on their part to use our collective wifi services and another radio band to give our devices greater range and eventually greater abilities.

Apparently, compatible devices we already own will automatically opt-in. One can opt-out using the Alexa or Ring apps. Amazon's email explains how to do this.

I suspect I am not the only person who is concerned about the security aspects of this new network. For now I will probably opt-out since I don't see a big upside for me, and I am not sure about security.

https://smile.amazon.com/Amazon-Sid...7490_547199770_pe_mp_tran_aucc_sidewalk_learn

What is Amazon Sidewalk?
Amazon Sidewalk is a shared network that helps devices work better. Operated by Amazon at no charge to customers, Sidewalk can help simplify new device setup, extend the low-bandwidth working range of devices, and help devices stay online even if they are outside the range of their home wifi. In the future, Sidewalk will support a range of experiences from using Sidewalk-enabled devices to help find pets or valuables, to smart security and lighting, to diagnostics for appliances and tools.

A comprehensive list of Sidewalk devices includes: Ring Floodlight Cam (2019), Ring Spotlight Cam Wired (2019), Ring Spotlight Cam Mount (2019), Echo (2nd Gen), Echo (3rd Gen), Echo (4th Gen), Echo Dot (2nd Gen), Echo Dot (3rd Gen), Echo Dot (4th Gen), Echo Dot (2nd Gen) for Kids, Echo Dot (3rd Gen) for Kids, Echo Dot (4th Gen) for Kids, Echo Dot with Clock (3rd Gen), Echo Dot with Clock (4th Gen), Echo Plus (1st Gen), Echo Plus (2nd Gen), Echo Show (1st Gen), Echo Show (2nd Gen), Echo Show 5, Echo Show 8, Echo Show 10, Echo Spot, Echo Studio.

 

[W2R]

I thought people who own Amazon and Ring devices might like to know more about Amazon's plan for the Sidewalk service.

People who own certain Amazon and Ring products should have received the email concerning Amazon's new Sidewalk network of connected devices. Note: See below for a list of devices that will work with Sidewalk.

It is an attempt on their part to use our collective wifi services and another radio band to give our devices greater range and eventually greater abilities.

Apparently, compatible devices we already own will automatically opt-in. One can opt-out using the Alexa or Ring apps. Amazon's email explains how to do this.

I suspect I am not the only person who is concerned about the security aspects of this new network. For now I will probably opt-out since I don't see a big upside for me, and I am not sure about security.

https://smile.amazon.com/Amazon-Sid...7490_547199770_pe_mp_tran_aucc_sidewalk_learn

I do not have (or want) Alexa in my house. But, I thought I'd read this just to see what Sidewalk would do for people.

After scanning through it quickly, it seems to me that basically the main function of Sidewalk is to reconnect when a device loses its internet connection. I am shocked that devices actually lose their internet connections that often with Amazon/Alexa. This is 2020 and unless there is a massive area wide outage, I can't imagine that that would ever happen.

There are easier ways to find pets, and many appliances have online diagnostics already and don't need help with that. Probably I missed some other functions of Sidewalk. Surely nobody would install it just to maintain connectivity.

And yes, if I had such a system I would opt out too.

 

[target2019]

''The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps."

This is not a good thing. The result is up to 500MB of your bandwidth being used in a month. With their resources they could pay you to host a separate radio outside of your LAN.

 

[retire-early]

My slow internet speed cannot handle this.
I don't want to be involved.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, I will simply remove the battery from my Ring Doorbell 2 and let it sit there.

 

[mpeirce]

The latest Security Now podcast with Steve Gibson talked about in pretty good detail.

There are three levels on encryption such that the application layer, network layer, and third later they call the flex-layer (Amazon's server), are isolated from knowing anything about the other layers.

If you are so inlined, you can read the Amazon white paper explaining the details.

I'm cautiously optimistic that Amazon has done a good job with this new protocol. I wouldn't be surprised if it's revised once the outside world picks it apart, but it's a very good start.

 

[mpeirce]

One other important detail about this is that it's targeting using 900 MHz spectrum as well as Bluetooth Low Energy. The 900 MHz band has much wider range and much better ability to penetrate building walls than WiFi or Bluetooth.

Amazon is claiming about a half mile range.

Newer Amazon devices have been including a 900 MHz radio for a while.

So basically it'll use 900 MHz for longer range or for devices that are closer, it'll use Bluetooth LE to conserve battery power.

 

[Midpack]

I do not have (or want) Alexa in my house. But, I thought I'd read this just to see what Sidewalk would do for people.

+1. Just another reason we don't want Alexa or any "personal assistant" in our house listening (and recording eventually if not now) to everything we say within earshot...

 

[Chuckanut]

My slow internet speed cannot handle this.
I don't want to be involved.
If it gets to be too much of a hassle, I will simply remove the battery from my Ring Doorbell 2 and let it sit there.

You can opt-out using their app. After posting the initial message, I went to the Alexa app and opted out of Sidewalk.

 

[OldShooter]

I will not get anywhere near Ring. I bought a single battery-powered motion light and during setup they insisted on physical address, cell phone number and other parameters, then proceeded to set up their own WiFi network in my house and bridge it to my Wifi and from there onto the internet. From that point I began receiving texts about neighborhood events like car break-ins, obviously intended to increase paranoia and Ring sales. I could find no way to turn this crap off. I finally messaged them on their facebook page and someone shut it down without even providing the courtesy of a reply. Fortunatly their little bridge box is screwed up and can no longer connect to my network. $40 into the garbage. When (not if) the Ring customer database is hacked, there will be a lot of exciting news about customer privacy, including security system configuration details being sold on the dark net.

 

[OldShooter]

... I'm cautiously optimistic that Amazon has done a good job with this new protocol. I wouldn't be surprised if it's revised once the outside world picks it apart, but it's a very good start.

The best software in the world is the stuff you just bought and have not yet installed. The issue is not so much the communications getting hacked. That is retail-level risk and very time-consuming for a hacker. The issue is the databases getting hacked and the information sold. That is where the big money is.

 

[W2R]

I will not get anywhere near Ring. I bought a single battery-powered motion light and during setup they insisted on physical address, cell phone number and other parameters, then proceeded to set up their own WiFi network in my house and bridge it to my Wifi and from there onto the internet. From that point I began receiving texts about neighborhood events like car break-ins, obviously intended to increase paranoia and Ring sales. I could find no way to turn this crap off. I finally messaged them on their facebook page and someone shut it down without even providing the courtesy of a reply. Fortunatly their little bridge box is screwed up and can no longer connect to my network. $40 into the garbage. When (not if) the Ring customer database is hacked, there will be a lot of exciting news about customer privacy, including security system configuration details being sold on the dark net.

Good heavens! I'm glad I never got Ring. That sounds terrible.

 

[CaptTom]

I fail to see what's in it for me. Not that I'd ever buy a Ring product anyway. But I can see all kinds of ways Amazon can monetize this new (and massive) data stream.

I'm not even too worried about hackers. Amazon is anxious to sell data derived from their surveillance technology to local police forces. I wonder if any higher levels of government are taking advantage of this sort of opportunity. I would normally scoff at fears of government overreach, but so many things I thought could never happen have already come true. I'm just not ready to dismiss any possibility any more.

 

[someguy]

I believe Ring and Nest share footage from doorbell and security cams with police and other authorities without getting permission from or notifying the owner. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Amazon and Google are mining a ton of data from these devices, too. They can recognize faces, for example, so tracking your and your guests' comings and goings is a given. Vehicles, too.

My understanding is that Amazon Sidewalk is an alternative wide area "public" network. If you have an Amazon/Alexa or other compatible device and, for example, go to your friend's house who also has a Sidewalk device, your device will automatically connect to your friend's device using 900Mhz or BLE, and then to the internet/Amazon cloud through your friend's internet connectivity.

This is primarily setting the stage of IoT (internet of things) such as tracker tiles, appliances/electronics, etc. Lower wavelength 900Mhz has greater range and more penetrating power than WiFi (2 or 5 Ghz), so even a relatively modest percentage of Sidewalk devices in a given neighborhood, building, etc will be enough to have complete coverage. If more than one Sidewalk is within range, it should also be possible to very accurately locate a device -- even one with no GPS capability -- as it moves around your house, for example.

It is relatively easy to check for "secret" WiFi devices in a place. As of now, it would be significantly harder to do the same for "secret" 900Mhz devices.

 

[CaptTom]

I believe Ring and Nest share footage from doorbell and security cams with police and other authorities without getting permission from or notifying the owner. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Amazon and Google are mining a ton of data from these devices, too. They can recognize faces, for example, so tracking your and your guests' comings and goings is a given. Vehicles, too.

I really don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I don't have any particular reason to fear the authorities.

But I keep coming back to a thought that our (US) system of governance was created in a time when this level of surveillance by private companies would be unimaginable. For example, any of this data being collected could be demanded - legally - by any number of different agencies. Because when these laws (and our constitution) were written, no-one could conceive of the scale at which data is being collected today.

Likewise the concept of free speech. I understand there have always been fringe voices shouting (publishing) into the wind. But now there are algorithms tuned to amplify and spread whatever "speech" brings in the most revenue. In other words, the most salacious and extreme.

I don't have the answers. But the questions seem to be getting more troubling.

 

[target2019]

The idea is bad for most, IMO.

First, we don't have any supported devices so it is of little concern to our LAN.

Second, it increases the attack surface for criminals. Of course some will trust what AMZN says about security, but I'm a skeptic. Anything created or engineered today will be broken in some unforeseen way in the future.

Third, I agree with CaptTom's points which look ahead to the uses of data which will be captured by AMZN and monetized. That data will not be used for your benefit, but in ways to increase how AMZN and partners market products.

 

[FDC319]

I will not get anywhere near Ring. I bought a single battery-powered motion light and during setup they insisted on physical address, cell phone number and other parameters, then proceeded to set up their own WiFi network in my house and bridge it to my Wifi and from there onto the internet. From that point I began receiving texts about neighborhood events like car break-ins, obviously intended to increase paranoia and Ring sales. I could find no way to turn this crap off. I finally messaged them on their facebook page and someone shut it down without even providing the courtesy of a reply. .

I bought the Ring outside stick up cam mainly as a camera to watch critters wander through the yard. No game camera could meet what I wanted it to do for a price I wanted to pay-provide me pictures/video over wifi as I have no cell coverage.

You don't have to give them your real address.
You don't have to give them your real phone number.


The neighborhood alerts you receive are from you opting IN to their neighborhood sharing.


My camera calmly sits in the yard watching critters-mainly a few opossum, fox, coyotes, turkey, & deer without any text or nagging.


As to the OP's post--this is another good reminder to occasionally scroll through the menus of your devices after an update to see what has changed. I have an older Echo Dot with clock in the bedroom as my alarm clock. As soon as I saw the sidewalk feature I made sure it was off. I forgot whether it defaulted to on or off.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I believe Ring and Nest share footage from doorbell and security cams with police and other authorities without getting permission from or notifying the owner.

I haven't read the ToS, but I would guess most folks unknowingly agree to this when they use the product.

Thanks to the OP with this share. We do use Alexa(s), and not sure I will let this run for the time being...especially in light of the news of the massive hacks that have been going on recently.

 

[Chuckanut]

The idea is bad for most, IMO.

First, we don't have any supported devices so it is of little concern to our LAN.

Second, it increases the attack surface for criminals. Of course some will trust what AMZN says about security, but I'm a skeptic. Anything created or engineered today will be broken in some unforeseen way in the future.

Third, I agree with CaptTom's points which look ahead to the uses of data which will be captured by AMZN and monetized. That data will not be used for your benefit, but in ways to increase how AMZN and partners market products.

I tend to agree with you. That's why I have already told Alexa to turn off Sidewalk.

 

[target2019]

I tend to agree with you. That's why I have already told Alexa to turn off Sidewalk.

And then in the future OFF becomes ON after an update or something like that.

I hate when that happens!

 

[target2019]

I'm expecting a delivery of RAK Hotspot Miner v2, described here:
https://www.calchipconnect.com/products/rak-hotspot-miner

Will be using it to set up a public network that also earns HNT cryptocurrency.
https://www.helium.com/

Son made me do it. LOL.

 

[Ronstar]

I have a ring doorbell. Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't. DW wanted it, I didn't, so I'm not going to mess with it to try to get it to work.

I don't have, or any plans to get echoes or Alexas in our house.

 

[someguy]

I am not much of a conspiracy person, either. But it's clear the laws and even societal norms are far behind the curve in the digital age.

In thinking about Sidewalk (and the 900Mhz and Bluetooth radios) more, it would also enable collecting data about other products you own -- eg, newer cars (with BT), fitness devices, cell phones, BT entertainment -- Roku, wireless ear phones, etc, potentially even biometric data (eg, heart rate monitor worn while working out in range of a Sidewalk device).

As is said, if you're not actively paying, the product is you. Now, even if you are paying the product might be you

I really don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I don't have any particular reason to fear the authorities.

But I keep coming back to a thought that our (US) system of governance was created in a time when this level of surveillance by private companies would be unimaginable. For example, any of this data being collected could be demanded - legally - by any number of different agencies. Because when these laws (and our constitution) were written, no-one could conceive of the scale at which data is being collected today.

Likewise the concept of free speech. I understand there have always been fringe voices shouting (publishing) into the wind. But now there are algorithms tuned to amplify and spread whatever "speech" brings in the most revenue. In other words, the most salacious and extreme.

I don't have the answers. But the questions seem to be getting more troubling.