Bank POD Issue

[audreyh1]

On the issue of the bank not wanting to let go of the money since they have it there. The irony is that I am a customer of the bank already. The money wasn't leaving the bank! It was staying there.

Yes, this is in Texas. I do understand that the bank won't recognize me as executor until I am appointed. That isn't an issue for me. For example, I didn't ask to take custody of the items in my mom's safety deposit box (I was recently in it and there is nothing of great value in it so I am in no hurry). But, the issue with the POD checking account was different. To be clear if the amount in it had been $1 under their limit they would have transferred the money to me. Because it was a little more they wouldn't. (And, no this is not a huge estate.).

Again, I know I have to do some probate things because I need to be able to sell the house. I don't mind doing them. But there are expenses related to the house so it would be nice to have the money so I could pay them from that money rather than having to front them out of my own cash. I am sure it will work out, but just annoying.

The POD has nothing to do with being executor. As you are the beneficiary, it goes to you independent of any will and probate.

 

[GrayHare]

Many states have a dollar amount under which standard probate is not needed, but I've never heard of a bank having its own limit for POD. I've seen irrational policies like that go into effect shortly after a bank has been burned by some unusual situation, and their worker bees then follow the new dictate issued from On High. That the OP is already known to the same bank makes this situation all the more absurd. Once I had finally the POD money I'd take my accounts elsewhere.

 

[Sunset]

All the POD's or TOD's (Transfer on death) I have ever seen or signed had no mention of $$$ limits.
I never knew there was such a thing.

All this talk made me check with Ally.com via chat, and I gave an example of an account with $111K in it. They said it would transfer on POD without probate, as long as it was not joint. (because joint owner gets it all).

 

[Katsmeow]

The POD has nothing to do with being executor. As you are the beneficiary, it goes to you independent of any will and probate.

I know this. I was responding to another post which indicated I wouldn't be recognized as executor until appointed by the court. For example, USPS doesn't allow the address of the deceased to be changed unless you go in and show you are appointed executor. I agree that is a totally different issue than the POD. The only relevance is that the insistence on probate by the bank is causing the delay.

Many states have a dollar amount under which standard probate is not needed, but I've never heard of a bank having its own limit for POD.

Yes, the bank would also be satisfied if I did a small estate affidavit. If the bank account isn't included the amount of the estate I could probably do that. I don't know if that would work though given the existence of the account and given that I have a house I need to transfer. One more thing to discuss with the attorney/

 

[Gill]

I’m also an attorney and administered estates all my working years. Something is nuts here. Probate or a small estate affidavit is completely irrelevant to your situation. Are they questioning the POD designation or its validity? I would speak to the attorneys for the bank or at least the head of commercial banking. Somebody doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Gill

 

[Katsmeow]

I’m also an attorney and administered estates all my working years. Something is nuts here. Probate or a small estate affidavit is completely irrelevant to your situation. Are they questioning the POD designation or its validity? I would speak to the attorneys for the bank or at least the head of commercial banking. Somebody doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
Gill

No, they are not questioning the POD. He said that if it was below a certain amount they would do it, but won't do it because it is over the amount. Of course, maybe there is some issue which he didn't express to me.

The whole thing was odd. I went in and spoke to the bank officer, thinking this would be no big deal. While I was acting as POA for my mom the bank had told me that it was POD to me (I didn't review it myself).

Anyway, the officer read stuff on his monitor and said there was something about an affidavit so he was going to call the back office. He got someone there on the phone in front of me. I could only hear his side of the conversation but he said that yes he had read what was there (on his screen) but he wanted clarification.

He then got off the phone and said that I need either a small estates affidavit, or a judgment (I don't recall the detail as I was so surprised) or to be in probate. All of that dumbfounded me. If he had said there was some issue with the POD designation but he volunteered that this was simply due to amount (maybe he is all wet -- I don't know). Since this isn't my area of law I decided to simply defer everything until I talk with the attorney who is going to be helping me with all this (which I thought was going to be very minimal help since my mom's estate is not that large and I mostly just need to make sure that I do what I need to do so I can sell the house). Most of the rest of it passes (or should) outside the estate. There is a small IRA and life insurance policy and I am beneficiary on both.

 

[Sunset]

I guessing this is a very small local bank, and they figure OP is too shy to put up a fuss, or make noise and will quietly go away.
The bank should be able to produce the POD, so OP can read it, and see exactly where does it say the bank gets to ignore it once the account is over $xxxx.

Ally bank has no issue (my earlier post) with an account of $111,000.oo so how small is too large for this weird bank ?

 

[Texas Proud]

Just look it up... ways to AVOID probate include...

Payable-on-death designations for bank accounts

In Texas, you can add a "payable-on-death" (POD) designation to bank accounts such as savings accounts or certificates of deposit. You still control all the money in the account -- your POD beneficiary has no rights to the money, and you can spend it all if you want. At your death, the beneficiary can claim the money directly from the bank, without probate court proceedings.





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https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/texas-avoiding-probate-31945.html

 

[Katsmeow]

I guessing this is a very small local bank, and they figure OP is too shy to put up a fuss, or make noise and will quietly go away.
The bank should be able to produce the POD, so OP can read it, and see exactly where does it say the bank gets to ignore it once the account is over $xxxx.

Ally bank has no issue (my earlier post) with an account of $111,000.oo so how small is too large for this weird bank ?

Actually not at all. This is a major large national bank. I don't really want to say right now who it is in case this is easily resolved or it was just a clueless bank officer who didn't explain the situation properly to the "back office." Or maybe there is some issue that he didn't explain to me.

Because this is such a large bank I lean toward thinking that there is simply something confused here.

 

[Car-Guy]

No, they are not questioning the POD. He said that if it was below a certain amount they would do it, but won't do it because it is over the amount. Of course, maybe there is some issue which he didn't express to me.

I've closed POD account(s) here in Texas that were in excess of 250k without any questions. I just walked into the bank with a copy of his recent monthly statements (which also showed me as POD) and his death certificate. No appointments, no calls ahead of time, just walked in an talked to the first available person. They all wanted two forms of my identification, which I had with me. They checked a few things on their computers, I signed a paper or two and they gave me a cashiers checks. I did this at the local branches of the banks without any problems. It was that simple for the ones I did. I will say the bigger name banks seemed to be the easiest and quickest to deal with. BTW, I didn't have any of my personal accounts at those banks...

 

[pb4uski]

Agree with others... this is nuts. I would escalate as needed and insist on them providing a citation to a regulation or statute that requires more than a valid POD and death certificate. If they don't produce it then tell them that they are illegally withholding your money and that you will file a complaint with banking regulators and may sue them and request puntative damages. IOW, I would be a prick and get nasty with them since they are being unreasonable.

I would also reconsider my existing customer relationship with them depending on their response.

 

[Dash man]

Try a different branch? Different people often give different answers.

 

[meierlde]

Agree with others... this is nuts. I would escalate as needed and insist on them providing a citation to a regulation or statute that requires more than a valid POD and death certificate. If they don't produce it then tell them that they are illegally withholding your money and that you will file a complaint with banking regulators and may sue them and request puntative damages. IOW, I would be a prick and get nasty with them since they are being unreasonable.

I would also reconsider my existing customer relationship with them depending on their response.

A question is this in a state that still has an inheritance/estate tax, with significantly lower limits than the federal limits?

 

[pb4uski]

I don't see why that would matter.... presumably the amount involved is under the FDIC limit of $250k so it would be far under any state inheritance tax limit.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

I don't see why that would matter.... presumably the amount involved is under the FDIC limit of $250k so it would be far under any state inheritance tax limit.

Not true. PA has an inheritance tax on far smaller amounts. When DD passed away, I had to pay PA inheritance tax for accounts far smaller than the FDIC $250K limit.

However, that did not prevent accounts being paid out using POD titling. The tax had to be paid later.

 

[MRG]

Not true. PA has an inheritance tax on far smaller amounts. When DD passed away, I had to pay PA inheritance tax for accounts far smaller than the FDIC $250K limit.

However, that did not prevent accounts being paid out using POD titling. The tax had to be paid later.

Right PA's estate tax starts at a dollar.

My DF passed in PA and his TOD was executed promptly. However the state of PA locked the account that received the funds! Sadly there was much more in that account than my DF's estate.

 

[Souschef]

Not true. PA has an inheritance tax on far smaller amounts. When DD passed away, I had to pay PA inheritance tax for accounts far smaller than the FDIC $250K limit.

However, that did not prevent accounts being paid out using POD titling. The tax had to be paid later.

Very true.When my MIL passed, my wife got the 50K she had in PNC bank right away. However, we had to pay estate tax on it.
A small part of me wanted to tell them I would not pay it as I lived in CA and had nothing in PA. However, it would have meant looking over my shoulder worrying about how they would come after us.

 

[audreyh1]

A question is this in a state that still has an inheritance/estate tax, with significantly lower limits than the federal limits?

Texas. No estate tax.

 

[ncbill]

Agree with others... this is nuts. I would escalate as needed and insist on them providing a citation to a regulation or statute that requires more than a valid POD and death certificate. If they don't produce it then tell them that they are illegally withholding your money and that you will file a complaint with banking regulators and may sue them and request puntative damages. IOW, I would be a prick and get nasty with them since they are being unreasonable.

I would also reconsider my existing customer relationship with them depending on their response.

Probably a little harsh.

Rather than continue to argue with the retail side, I'm sure a demand letter from the OP's attorney to theirs will be sufficient.

 

[Sunset]

Actually not at all. This is a major large national bank. I don't really want to say right now who it is in case this is easily resolved or it was just a clueless bank officer who didn't explain the situation properly to the "back office." Or maybe there is some issue that he didn't explain to me.

Because this is such a large bank I lean toward thinking that there is simply something confused here.

Well this makes it worse for everyone else, if the situation is not simply some clueless employees, as it will/could affect lots of people.

I understand you don't want to badmouth them, but sometimes it's the actual social embarrassment that causes the situations to be corrected quickly.

 

[Sunset]

Probably a little harsh.

Rather than continue to argue with the retail side, I'm sure a demand letter from the OP's attorney to theirs will be sufficient.

Sure, it might, and it will only cost $100 of the lawyer's billable time, for something that should have been done by the bank employee.

 

[pb4uski]

Probably a little harsh.

Rather than continue to argue with the retail side, I'm sure a demand letter from the OP's attorney to theirs will be sufficient.

I dunno... if the OP determines that the bank is in the wrong, I think a complaint to bankig regulators will be more effective than a demand letter from their attorney... the latter they can just thumb their noses up at, the former they would likely not ignore. Besides, if they are in the wrong, then harsh is deserved.

 

[nwsteve]

Pure speculation here, but the bank's antics and being a "major national bank", makes want to put money on Wells Fargo as the bank. All these behaviors fit right in.
My runner-up is US Bank

 

[Texas Proud]

Texas. No estate tax.

That in interesting... I actually did not know this...


Back in the early 80s I did estate tax work and they had one that was complicated... but then they decided to make it very simple... the US estate tax had a maximum state tax deduction... Texas just made it that amount!!! Easy peasy....


I have watched the US exemption amount go up and down, but never did pay attention to Texas... do you know when they got rid of it?

 

[Clone]

Actually not at all. This is a major large national bank. I don't really want to say right now who it is in case this is easily resolved or it was just a clueless bank officer who didn't explain the situation properly to the "back office." Or maybe there is some issue that he didn't explain to me.

Because this is such a large bank I lean toward thinking that there is simply something confused here.

I am going to go out on a limb here.


Welcome to Wells Fargo!!


Time to put your lawyer skills to work, Either you, or your lawyer, needs to put them on notice that 'this aggression will not stand!!' This is not a probate issue, this is just there way of doing business. It is like trying to cancel a self-renewing Time-Warner book of the month club! They are making it difficult and obscure to figure out what is required for them to cut the money loose, and they are not willing to identify the steps required. It should not be your job to un-screw their screwed up mess!


If they tell you to calm down- just say- "Calmer than you are..."


Not that I have much of an opinion about Wells Fargo...